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Old 05-15-2017, 12:35 PM
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You are right, there will be more death. My point was that some of the folks that will end up dead due to the Paige situation would not have had to die otherwise.

Clearly, you can't be a good parent and a good spy at the same time. That is, I think, the whole point of this plot line. Philip, via EST and his nature, is wanting to be a good parent above being a good spy. Elizabeth is a spy first, even wanting to bring her own child into the family business.

This family is on the edge of being torn apart. Who is gonna die? Who is going to facilitate that death? Who is responsible? Looking for easy answers may be a futile exercise.

That's what makes this show so good, black and white is shaded with loads of gray.
Well said.
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Old 05-15-2017, 12:56 PM
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Well said.
Indeed.
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:14 PM
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If Paige could tell Pastor Tim was lying to her, why can't she tell her parents are lying to her?
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:27 PM
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If Paige could tell Pastor Tim was lying to her, why can't she tell her parents are lying to her?
Because her parents don't write about their exploits in a book that anyone can access.
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Old 05-15-2017, 02:50 PM
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^
Sooner or later their "We won't lie to you" will be reprised. Wonder if the Jennings arranged the upcoming junket.

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Old 05-17-2017, 06:57 AM
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Great episode last night. Elizabeth wants to go home. Let's see where that takes us.

Phillip looks like he's done to me.

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Old 05-17-2017, 07:51 AM
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Emotional episode for sure. Those folks who think P & E (mostly E) are not monsters, where are you after this episode? After hearing why that nice old lady did what she did as a 16 year old girl, they proceed to off her innocent husband and her. They even decided to wait for him to come home, so his death was utterly unnecessary, until they made it so by waiting.

Spying and getting info for your country is one thing. Killing people in cold blood is quite another - something they are doing with increasing frequency lately. It's all part of the job apparently, but 1 part seems way more noble than the other. Clearly it's getting harder to justify their job in their own minds. It has for Philip for a while now, but even Elizabeth seemed shook up over this one - not that is stopped her in the moment. By the way, anyone want to raise their hand and say she is not a horrible person for wanting, and trying, to bring Paige into all this?

Great TV as always. It makes the viewers consider all that goes into the lives these folks have to live. Love the show..
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:49 AM
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A new sub-plot with a Police Detective investigating the trail of bodies would make for an interesting side story ..
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:07 AM
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Henry becomes Stan's partner and catches his parents.

These are just my opinions.
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:49 AM
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I enjoyed the part where Henry tells mom and dad about the "room" where nothing can be heard from the outside. I can see some bugging attempts coming up...

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Old 05-17-2017, 10:11 AM
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By the way, anyone want to raise their hand and say she is not a horrible person for wanting, and trying, to bring Paige into all this?
I'm not raising my hand, however, if Elizabeth truly believes in the Ideology, then she would naturally not consider any ramifications / blow back as it relates to Paige being indoctrinated, in fact, Liz would think it a good thing .. and, I've always assumed we have our own counterparts doing much the same type things in Russia ..

Which brings up a new idea .. a new series called "The Russians" .. an American under cover married couple living in suburban Saint Petersburg, working as micro-Vodka distillers, with 2 teen age kids .. etc ..

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Old 05-17-2017, 12:35 PM
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...Elizabeth truly believes in the Ideology, then she would naturally not consider any ramifications / blow back as it relates to Paige being indoctrinated..
See, I mean for me, that itself would make her a horrible person IMO - not having any consideration for ramifications to her kid. It's good for discussion though , trying to understand just how far these spies have to go, or are willing to go for their ideology.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:37 PM
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I'm sorry guys but there are some really terrible ideas some of you floating around, and makes me thankful that you're not writing for this show.
As far as the execution/vengeance mission, yes it is an extremely unlikely scenario, especially for spies like the Jenkins, they are just too valuable to be risked on a mission like that.
I'm guessing the writers just wanna set them on a certain path here, by "cranking up the volume" a bit for Philip but it just hurts the show's credibility IMO .
I seriously doubt that Philip want's to go "home".

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Old 05-17-2017, 12:50 PM
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See, I mean for me, that itself would make her a horrible person IMO - not having any consideration for ramifications to her kid. It's good for discussion though , trying to understand just how far these spies have to go, or are willing to go for their ideology.
I don't disagree at all .. I just came at it from Elizabeth's side .. a True Believer is a, er, True Believer .. no matter what side of the fence they sit on .. can anyone say Jim Jones and his "followers" .. ?? Or David Koresh .. ?? Same difference, the Sheep follow the Leader .. and, if nothing else, Phillip and Elizabeth, at the end of the day, are Sheep .. although Phillip seems to be shedding some wool, or so it would appear ..
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:10 PM
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As all of the Usual Suspects here know, I have long believed that the Jennings are monsters, especially Elizabeth. When the cold blooded execution of the lady and her husband in their own home happened, I thought, where is the proportionality, where is the credit for having led a blameless life for nearly 40 years? What was done sickened me. Elizabeth likes to tell herself the carnage she leaves in her wake is all for the "Greater Good." It seems to me, though, that she is a remorseless predator, regardless of the pretty justifications she uses for them. Something is missing in her.
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Old 05-17-2017, 08:28 PM
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Spying and getting info for your country is one thing. Killing people in cold blood is quite another - something they are doing with increasing frequency lately. It's all part of the job apparently, but 1 part seems way more noble than the other. Clearly it's getting harder to justify their job in their own minds. It has for Philip for a while now, but even Elizabeth seemed shook up over this one - not that is stopped her in the moment.
I think this one shocked even Elizabeth, because it didn't really serve any purpose. Claudia basically told them, "We think we know where a war criminal is hiding. Go execute the traitor for us." Even if you remove the ambiguity over whether they had the right person, executing a war criminal doesn't help their current cause or advance their current interests in any way. It's just a revenge killing, which isn't what they signed up for.

Elizabeth would never disobey a direct order, but even she can see that this wasn't a terribly important mission. I would guess that she is suggesting retirement because she's protecting Philip and not because she actually wants to quit. She knows that he doesn't have the stomach to do what's necessary anymore, and she won't be able to cover for him on every mission, so while she's still loyal to her country, she's also loyal to Philip and is thinking it's best for them to quit while they're ahead, i.e. before the Centre grows displeased enough with Philip that returning home is no longer an option for him.

Of course, I'm sure that returning home won't be an option, since we have another season to go yet.
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Don S View Post
Emotional episode for sure. Those folks who think P & E (mostly E) are not monsters, where are you after this episode? After hearing why that nice old lady did what she did as a 16 year old girl, they proceed to off her innocent husband and her. They even decided to wait for him to come home, so his death was utterly unnecessary, until they made it so by waiting.

Spying and getting info for your country is one thing. Killing people in cold blood is quite another - something they are doing with increasing frequency lately. It's all part of the job apparently, but 1 part seems way more noble than the other. Clearly it's getting harder to justify their job in their own minds. It has for Philip for a while now, but even Elizabeth seemed shook up over this one - not that is stopped her in the moment. By the way, anyone want to raise their hand and say she is not a horrible person for wanting, and trying, to bring Paige into all this?

Great TV as always. It makes the viewers consider all that goes into the lives these folks have to live. Love the show..
I don't remember anyone specifically saying the Jennings were not monsters. And the writers are not portraying them as sexy and glamorous spies. This is not a 007 movie. They do the dirty work for the Center, no matter the task. It seems this season, the killing has become more emotionally motivated, but they've killed people to accomplish their assignments. Overdosing the old lady that was working late. Hanging the IT guy to pin the FBI spying on him instead of Martha.

As a matter of fact, do you consider James Bond a monster? His body count is pretty high too. Or is it because he's the "good guy" so that makes killing in cold blood okay?

Also, Stan killed the Soviet guy. Nina's life was destroyed because Stan turned her into a asset. And the CIA wanted to exploit Oleg or throw him under the bus if he didn't cooperate. Both sides do unforgivable things in the name of their countries.
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:27 PM
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There's a recap out there which compared what the woman did, following heinous orders, to what the Jennings eventually do, which is to execute her, following orders.

Following orders to perpetrate evil doesn't absolve them of the responsibility.

Yet they can't refuse the Center and if they tell Claudia they want to go home, I have a suspicion that isn't going to fly.
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Old 05-18-2017, 06:56 AM
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I don't remember anyone specifically saying the Jennings were not monsters. And the writers are not portraying them as sexy and glamorous spies. This is not a 007 movie. They do the dirty work for the Center, no matter the task. It seems this season, the killing has become more emotionally motivated, but they've killed people to accomplish their assignments. Overdosing the old lady that was working late. Hanging the IT guy to pin the FBI spying on him instead of Martha.

As a matter of fact, do you consider James Bond a monster? His body count is pretty high too. Or is it because he's the "good guy" so that makes killing in cold blood okay?

Also, Stan killed the Soviet guy. Nina's life was destroyed because Stan turned her into a asset. And the CIA wanted to exploit Oleg or throw him under the bus if he didn't cooperate. Both sides do unforgivable things in the name of their countries.
Sounds like we're in agreement to be honest here. I agree with what you wrote. None of it is really at odds with my point. That said, there certainly are shades of grey here. If you are saying Stan is as bad as these 2 because of those incidents, then I guess we do differ.
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Old 05-18-2017, 06:59 AM
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I think this one shocked even Elizabeth, because it didn't really serve any purpose. Claudia basically told them, "We think we know where a war criminal is hiding. Go execute the traitor for us." Even if you remove the ambiguity over whether they had the right person, executing a war criminal doesn't help their current cause or advance their current interests in any way. It's just a revenge killing, which isn't what they signed up for.

Elizabeth would never disobey a direct order, but even she can see that this wasn't a terribly important mission. I would guess that she is suggesting retirement because she's protecting Philip and not because she actually wants to quit. She knows that he doesn't have the stomach to do what's necessary anymore, and she won't be able to cover for him on every mission, so while she's still loyal to her country, she's also loyal to Philip and is thinking it's best for them to quit while they're ahead, i.e. before the Centre grows displeased enough with Philip that returning home is no longer an option for him.

Of course, I'm sure that returning home won't be an option, since we have another season to go yet.
Yup, excellent assessment and I agree totally about Elizabeth.
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Old 05-18-2017, 07:51 AM
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Wow... that was brutal... even by P&E standards!

I agree that E's motivation for retirement is based on her assessment of P's mental state. He's burnt out/disillusioned/disgusted and she knows it!

The writers have lead us down a path that should provide excellent entertainment for the remainder of the series...

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Old 05-18-2017, 09:51 AM
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The next episode is titled "The World Council of Churches". This may be relevant:

Quote:
Claims of infiltration and influence by the KGB[edit]
It is claimed the KGB has infiltrated and influenced past WCC councils and policy.[12] In 1992, Father Gleb Yakunin, a vice Chairman of a Russian parliamentary commission that investigated the activities of the KGB, citing verbatim KGB reports, claimed that its Fifth Directorate was actively involved in influencing WCC policy from 1967 to 1989.[56][54] For example, in the 1983 WCC General Assembly in Vancouver, one cited document described the presence and activities of 47 KGB agents to secure the election of an "acceptable" candidate as General Secretary.[56][57] The Mitrokhin Archive reveals more about the depth of the penetration and influence wielded by the KGB over the WCC.[55] Metropolitan Nikidim was a KGB agent, codenamed ADAMANT, who served as one of six WCC Presidents from 1975 until his death.[55]:729[58] His earlier intervention had resulted in the WCC making no comment on the invasion of Czechoslovakia.[55]:636 As a result of his influence and that of other agents, it is claimed the USSR was rarely publicly criticised.[55]:637 In 1989, copies of the KGB documents claim "the WCC executive and central committee adopted public statements (eight) and messages (three)" which corresponded to its own political direction.[55]:637 Appeals from suffering dissidents both from within the Russian Orthodox Church and Protestants were ignored in 1983.[55]:647–8 Metropolitan Aleksi Ridiger of Talinn and Estonia was repeatedly alleged to be a KGB agent codenamed DROZDOV, who in 1988 was awarded an honorary citation for services to the KGB by its chairman.[55]:650[59][60] Despite official disavowals, The Guardian described the evidence as "compelling".[61] In 1990 he became Aleksi II, the 15th Patriarch of the Russian Orthodox Church. Upon his death in 2008, the WCC's official tribute, by its Council officers, described him as "courageous ", "supportive and constructive" and the recipient of "abundant blessing", no reference was made to the allegations.[62][63]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Council_of_Churches
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Don S View Post
Emotional episode for sure. Those folks who think P & E (mostly E) are not monsters, where are you after this episode? After hearing why that nice old lady did what she did as a 16 year old girl, they proceed to off her innocent husband and her. They even decided to wait for him to come home, so his death was utterly unnecessary, until they made it so by waiting.

Spying and getting info for your country is one thing. Killing people in cold blood is quite another - something they are doing with increasing frequency lately. It's all part of the job apparently, but 1 part seems way more noble than the other. Clearly it's getting harder to justify their job in their own minds. It has for Philip for a while now, but even Elizabeth seemed shook up over this one - not that is stopped her in the moment. By the way, anyone want to raise their hand and say she is not a horrible person for wanting, and trying, to bring Paige into all this?

Great TV as always. It makes the viewers consider all that goes into the lives these folks have to live. Love the show..
Looking at them morally, they are monsters. However, they are not looking at the world with the same viewpoint. Like many, they have "a higher calling", one that gives them the moral authority to do whatever it takes to achieve their higher purpose. Unfortunately for both of them, they are beginning to see that their "higher calling" may not be so high after all, removing their moral authority and creating the inner conflict we now see in both of them.

Being a spy is inhuman, by its very nature. In this episode, they even brought Stan into the mix, refuting the concept that he is a hero and stating quite matter-of-factly that he trusts no one, not even his wife! What kind of a life is that? What does that kind of a life do to a normal human being ... turns him into a monster, eventually?

Even Elizabeth is beginning to doubt, but so well indoctrinated (brainwashed?) that she went through with the executions anyway, knowing it was "wrong". She has been the rock, always insisting on doing their duty. Now? It's gonna get interesting ...

There Will Be Blood ....
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:19 AM
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I don't remember anyone specifically saying the Jennings were not monsters. And the writers are not portraying them as sexy and glamorous spies. This is not a 007 movie. They do the dirty work for the Center, no matter the task. It seems this season, the killing has become more emotionally motivated, but they've killed people to accomplish their assignments. Overdosing the old lady that was working late. Hanging the IT guy to pin the FBI spying on him instead of Martha.

As a matter of fact, do you consider James Bond a monster? His body count is pretty high too. Or is it because he's the "good guy" so that makes killing in cold blood okay?

Also, Stan killed the Soviet guy. Nina's life was destroyed because Stan turned her into a asset. And the CIA wanted to exploit Oleg or throw him under the bus if he didn't cooperate. Both sides do unforgivable things in the name of their countries.
The Bond reference is apropos. I think we viewers see him as a hero, simply because the bad guys are always trying to do something so catastrophic that it gives him (in our eyes) the moral authority to do whatever it takes to avert the disaster. In addition, Bond is more of a cartoon character, thus making it easier for us to forgive what is perceived as being unreal.

Same can't be said for The Americans, where it is starkly real, thus giving us (the viewers) pause in readily handing out moral authority (to either side).
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:32 AM
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Elizabeth's motivation to execute the nazi collaborator and husband was not just due to carrying out orders but because she betrayed the motherland and killed so many soldiers. Killing the husband first was probably to inflict one final punishment on the woman.
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:57 AM
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The Bond reference is apropos. I think we viewers see him as a hero, simply because the bad guys are always trying to do something so catastrophic that is gives him (in our eyes) the moral authority to do whatever it takes to avert the disaster. In addition, Bond is more of a cartoon character, thus making it easier for us to forgive what is perceived as being unreal.

Same can't be said for The Americans, where it is starkly real, thus giving us (the viewers) pause in readily handing out moral authority (to either side).
The Roger Moore 007 devolved into cartoonish levels, but the Connery and Craig Bonds are darker. Since he is a good guy, he usually doesn't kill unless he has to, but I think the Connery Bond killed with little remorse. But if you viewed his carnage from the bad guys' perspective, he's a monster.

Imagine the wife of a factory worker telling her child "Daddy's never coming home, Billy. Some devil in a tuxedo threw him off the tower at work before he blew it up."
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:03 PM
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The Roger Moore 007 devolved into cartoonish levels, but the Connery and Craig Bonds are darker. Since he is a good guy, he usually doesn't kill unless he has to, but I think the Connery Bond killed with little remorse. But if you viewed his carnage from the bad guys' perspective, he's a monster.

Imagine the wife of a factory worker telling her child "Daddy's never coming home, Billy. Some devil in a tuxedo threw him off the tower at work before he blew it up."
Never attack a tuxedoed man with a huge wrench while on a tower ... words to live by ...
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:08 PM
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Never attack a tuxedoed man with a huge wrench while on a tower ... words to live by ...
LOL. My wife and I have a joke about huge wrenches in the movies and tv shows. It doesn't matter where you are, could be an office building or a daycare center, someone will have a huge wrench.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by hooked01 View Post
Elizabeth's motivation to execute the nazi collaborator and husband was not just due to carrying out orders but because she betrayed the motherland and killed so many soldiers. Killing the husband first was probably to inflict one final punishment on the woman.
Or it was a warm-up, killing someone she had no emotional attachment to first, before proceeding to the woman, whose story she empathized with. It's also possible she was trying to prod Philip into killing the woman ... there was a long pause between shots, but Philip wouldn't pull the trigger, so she did.

It's hard to tell what E is feeling, as she buries it in duty so often. However, her emotions have been more obvious of late (sex/friendship'jealousy with the super-grain guy. for instance) and her rage at the woman before hearing her story was over-the-top for her. She is usually more coldly rational in those sorts of situations.

In any case, you could very well be right and I'm misreading it. E is an enigma wrapped in a mystery. I have a feeling we are going to get more back story on her as the show closes out. Something that will give us a better understanding of why she is the way she is. So far, we have the rape and little else. They have been exploring Philip's past a lot, recently. It's her turn!

Last edited by RayGuy; 05-18-2017 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 05-18-2017, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooked01 View Post
LOL. My wife and I have a joke about huge wrenches in the movies and tv shows. It doesn't matter where you are, could be an office building or a daycare center, someone will have a huge wrench.
... or on a futuristic Irwin Allen designed Submarine... anyone recall Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea?
Plenty of giant wrenches aboard that sub, every time there was an uprising or and/or alien mind control episode- the 3ft wrenches appeared in droves
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