2013 Formula 1 in HD - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

IMO, the big breakthroughs would, ideally, be in 2 areas: batteries and solar power panels.
If it was inexpensive and renewable, the world would change.wink.gif

The age old conundrum. To get the new technologies to be affordable you need to sell a lot of them, but you can't sell a lot of them because they cost too much. Case in point, the Chevy Volt. The ONLY reason to buy one is if you want to "save the planet", because no matter how good the mileage is in the real world (debatable), you will never offset the difference in price between a Volt (35-40k) and a Civic or comparable car (20k) in gas savings. 15k will buy a LOT of fuel. Most people have interest in hybrids for the fuel savings, they aren't concerned about the planet. So why would they pay twice as much for a car? Hence the reason production on the Volt has been "suspended". Until the hybrid tech becomes affordable, they will never really take off. The Prius is the only one that I would consider a success. I still don't understand why they can't make a cool looking Prius.

The other thing that concerns me about electric cars (if they were to take off and become mainstream) is the fact that everyone would use more electricity at their home (obviously), but that creates more demand for electricity and the price goes up. So now you are paying more for the electricity that you were already using. The real kicker? A large amount of electricity is generated by using fossil fuels. So you are right back where you started.

I won't turn this into politics (please don't), but if our government wasn't so damn greedy and cared about the country instead of their bank accounts, we would have a lot of alternate energy. Look at the countries in Europe.

Just like you said, they need some real breakthroughs with solar panel efficiency. The battery tech is supposedly there, but depending on who you talk to, it is "not ready for the public" yet or the government is "buying up the tech and burying it so they can rape us for gas". rolleyes.gif
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post #1082 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

IMO, the big breakthroughs would, ideally, be in 2 areas: batteries and solar power panels.
If it was inexpensive and renewable, the world would change.wink.gif

Although neither batteries nor solar power have yet contributed in any material way to relieving of us of our dependence on gasoline to power cars, you could be right that developments in that area could make a difference one day. The hydraulic fracturing and horizontal drilling techniques for oil extraction, which I mentioned in my last post, are a good example. The technology has been around for generations but not until recent years did the ever increasing price of oil make it economically practical. Then, the oil companies developed ways to make those techniques even more efficient. Decisions like these are invariably driven by economics and the technology follows the money. Thus there's no telling where it all might lead, a point upon which I think we agree.

Wouldn't it be interesting if F1 someday developed an electric car. Maybe it will happen in our grandchildren's' lifetime but maybe not even then and maybe it will be some other gee whiz technology nobody has even thought of yet. Anyway, F1's turbocharged V6 engines aren't likely to be around until then.
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post #1083 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:24 PM
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I've thought, for many years now, the answer is fuel cells - not just for cars but for all our energy requirements. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe and the oceans are filled with it. Just run an electric current through water and voila! - hydrogen and oxygen gas. The only by-product from burning hydrogen for fuel? Pure water.

There is a band of equatorial ocean in the Pacific thousands of miles wide and tens of thousands of miles long. Big storms are rare there as cyclonic activity occurs mostly in the temperate zones. Imagine floating acres upon acres of solar panels on the surface of this calm, warm ocean, generating the electricity needed to eventually break down water molecules into their component parts. Fill giant zeppelins with the gas and fly them back to the mainland. All our energy problems solved. For free, basically.

Obviously, our energy storage and delivery systems would have to be greatly modified, but that's just engineering. Think of all the jobs that would be created in this vast, new industry! With unlimited, virtually free energy, the world would be an entirely different place. Why nobody is talking about this energy option when they talk about other alternative sources is a source of ongoing mystery to me.
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post #1084 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I've thought, for many years now, the answer is fuel cells. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe and the oceans are filled with it. Just run an electric current through it and voila! - hydrogen and oxygen gas. The only by-product from burning hydrogen for fuel? Pure water.

There is a band of equatorial ocean in the Pacific thousands of miles wide and tens of thousands of miles long. Big storms are rare there as cyclonic activity occurs mostly in the temperate zones. Imagine floating acres upon acres of solar panels on the surface of this calm, warm ocean, generating the electricity needed to eventually break down water molecules into their component parts. Fill giant zeppelins with the gas and fly them back to the mainland. All our energy problems solved. For free, basically.

Obviously, the energy storage and delivery systems would have to be modified, but that's just engineering. Think of all the jobs that would be created! With unlimited, virtually free energy, the world would be an entirely different place. Why nobody is talking about this when they talk about other alternative sources is a source of ongoing mystery to me.

Another great idea ag.

I saw an article a while back about underwater "wind mills". The ocean's current never stops and you don't have the unsightly above ground standard wind mills that people complain about. The blades are massive and move slowly, so there is no harm to sea life.

Lots of great options out there.
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post #1085 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

I've thought, for many years now, the answer is fuel cells - not just for cars but for all our energy requirements. Hydrogen is the most common element in the universe and the oceans are filled with it. Just run an electric current through it and voila! - hydrogen and oxygen gas. The only by-product from burning hydrogen for fuel? Pure water.

In theory that's a great solution, but unless things have changed since I last did research producing pure hydrogen necessary for fuel cells is very expensive and takes more energy to create than a fuel cell produces.

Check out the Buckeye Bullet for several fast cars built from alternative fuels. It would be interesting to see a proffesional alt-fuel race league at the highest level. Speed isn't an issue as long as manufacturers are willing to pour money in.


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post #1086 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post

The age old conundrum. To get the new technologies to be affordable you need to sell a lot of them, but you can't sell a lot of them because they cost too much. Case in point, the Chevy Volt. The ONLY reason to buy one is if you want to "save the planet", because no matter how good the mileage is in the real world (debatable), you will never offset the difference in price between a Volt (35-40k) and a Civic or comparable car (20k) in gas savings. 15k will buy a LOT of fuel. Most people have interest in hybrids for the fuel savings, they aren't concerned about the planet. So why would they pay twice as much for a car? Hence the reason production on the Volt has been "suspended". Until the hybrid tech becomes affordable, they will never really take off. The Prius is the only one that I would consider a success. I still don't understand why they can't make a cool looking Prius.

The other thing that concerns me about electric cars (if they were to take off and become mainstream) is the fact that everyone would use more electricity at their home (obviously), but that creates more demand for electricity and the price goes up. So now you are paying more for the electricity that you were already using. The real kicker? A large amount of electricity is generated by using fossil fuels. So you are right back where you started.

I won't turn this into politics (please don't), but if our government wasn't so damn greedy and cared about the country instead of their bank accounts, we would have a lot of alternate energy. Look at the countries in Europe.

Just like you said, they need some real breakthroughs with solar panel efficiency. The battery tech is supposedly there, but depending on who you talk to, it is "not ready for the public" yet or the government is "buying up the tech and burying it so they can rape us for gas". rolleyes.gif
Let's do some math here and see what we come up with.
To use your example...price difference between Volt and Civic is 15k.
15000 divided by 4 (the price of a gallon of gas rounded) = 3750 gallons.
3750 gallons will take a Civic (@25 MPG) 93750 miles.
THAT is a lot of miles.

There are OTHER costs to factor in when comparing these 2 techs, but I don't have time to go into it here.
So, yeah, the savings in dollars takes a long time work out.
However, the "savings" in environmental costs AND preserving the planet for our grandchildren is something to also consider.

I have seen the Volt up close and it has a very cool, space age-looking interior.
Would I buy one?
Sure, if I was in the market.
BUT, the Tesla S has a lot of panache.wink.gif

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post #1087 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:33 PM
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There are OTHER costs to factor in when comparing these 2 techs, but I don't have time to go into it here.

BUT, the Tesla S has a lot of panache.wink.gif

The other major factor with hybrids/electrics, is the battery. IIRC, the battery for the Prius is 6-7k and lasts about 6 years. I'm sure the Volt battery is similar.

Now we are talking! I really like those. Sharp car.
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post #1088 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:35 PM
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In theory that's a great solution, but unless things have changed since I last did research producing pure hydrogen necessary for fuel cells is very expensive and takes more energy to create than a fuel cell produces.

That's the whole point of vast arrays of solar cells floating on the surface of the ocean. The sun provides the energy to break apart the water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen gas. And it's free.
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post #1089 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:36 PM
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In theory that's a great solution, but unless things have changed since I last did research producing pure hydrogen necessary for fuel cells is very expensive and takes more energy to create than a fuel cell produces.
Nonetheless, car manufacturers have been doing research into hydrogen fuel cells for quite awhile.
They keep popping up at car shows around the world.

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post #1090 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:39 PM
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As to what we have now, as zeus says above, the Prius has been around for 15 years. That technology is now mature. And it works exceedingly well. A buddy of mine just bought one and he's gotten upwards of 80 mpg in city driving (where breaking can recharge the batteries exclusive of the gasoline engine). Prius owners take great pride in learning how to feather the accelerator to keep the car in the electric mode most of the time.

The boxy-looking Prius is supposedly wicked aerodynamic, but why Toyota doesn't make a sexier model using the same tech is another one of life's Big Mysteries.
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post #1091 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 01:40 PM
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Nonetheless, car manufacturers have been doing research into hydrogen fuel cells for quite awhile.
They keep popping up at car shows around the world.

Yep. BMW has a hydrogen 7. I read an article about it and it mentioned the fact that the hydrogen had to remain very cold (don't remember the exact number) so BMW had to design a special fuel tank. The tech that they used was less than an inch thick IIRC and had the same thermal effect as a 50 foot thick piece of styrofoam! They said you could put a fresh cup of coffee in the tank and it would still be hot a week later! I'm sure it cost a fortune, but that is the stuff they should be insulating houses with.

Edit, found this:
The hydrogen fuel is stored in a large, nearly 45-gallon (170 liters),[5] bi-layered and highly insulated tank that stores the fuel as liquid rather than as compressed gas, which BMW says offers 75% more energy per volume as a liquid than compressed gas at 700 bars of pressure.[6] The hydrogen tank’s insulation is under high vacuum in order to keep heat transfer to the hydrogen to a bare minimum, and is purportedly equivalent to a 55-foot (17 m) thick wall of polystyrene Styrofoam.

To stay a liquid, hydrogen must be super-cooled and maintained at cryogenic temperatures of, at warmest, −253 °C (−423.4 °F).
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post #1092 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 02:07 PM
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Green shmeen....mad.gif If I'm paying good money to watch a race for entertainment, it had darn well be entertaining - I'll leave my social consciousness at the door, thank you very much. And I will wear my t-shirt with pride...



It is well-documented that the supply chain for the Toyota Prius is the most complex in manufacturing history and is ATROCIOUS when it comes to the shear number of miles and ultimate "carbon load" for all raw materials and finished parts to produce that car. So even at 80 mpg in the city, there is a HUGE carbon deficit to make up for every Prius produced. Top Gear touched upon this at one point. Skip to 3:35 in this video....

KERS I get....it adds another dimension to the race and is an enabling technology to recapture energy for future use. Makes sense. Handcuffing the world's elite autosport to make a political and social statement is just plain dumb and adds nothing to racing entertainment.
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post #1093 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 02:15 PM
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And it's free.
THAT'S the problem right there.biggrin.gif

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but why Toyota doesn't make a sexier model using the same tech is another one of life's Big Mysteries.
NO mystery at all....it's Toyota.
Just look at the rest of their line-up.wink.gif

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that is the stuff they should be insulating houses with.
And every new house built in this country should have govt. mandated solar cells on the roof.wink.gif

Come to think of it....I think that is now true in Hawaii.

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post #1094 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 02:23 PM
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Actually, all that extra insulation doesn't make as much difference in building design as you might think. The efficiency curve is exponential and above about R-10 there's little more to be gained from souping up the insulation factor. What's far more important in terms of energy efficiency, and therefore energy costs, is sealing up all the leaks and thermal bridges in the building envelope.
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post #1095 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 03:07 PM
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Actually, all that extra insulation doesn't make as much difference in building design as you might think. The efficiency curve is exponential and above about R-10 there's little more to be gained from souping up the insulation factor. What's far more important in terms of energy efficiency, and therefore energy costs, is sealing up all the leaks and thermal bridges in the building envelope.
Since when does a guy who counts dirty baby diapers for a living know anything about architecture?

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post #1096 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 03:56 PM
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Lewis explains his driving position:






And more Webbergate: http://www.gptoday.com/full_story/view/446955/Webber_low_on_fuel_during_Vettel_attack/
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post #1097 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 04:02 PM
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post #1098 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 04:05 PM
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post #1099 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 04:10 PM
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Gotta love Kimi!

Eric Boullier talking about team orders:

“Yes, one of our drivers is famous for doing pretty much what we wants, but when you have 600 people behind you, there is a certain respect you must have for the team.”
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post #1100 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 04:58 PM
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Since when does a guy who counts dirty baby diapers for a living know anything about architecture?

Okay - now I'm lost. confused.gif
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post #1101 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 05:26 PM
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Okay - now I'm lost. confused.gif
A too far inside joke....in a weird, non-alcoholic haze kinda way.

When I was 17 years old and living in Phoenix, I had a job counting, cleaning, and drying baby diapers (no joke) for a company called Dy-Dee Diaper Service.
Anyway, it goes without saying the job....stank....literally.
Fridays was always the crappiest day of the week.
It was the day the sealed plastic bags of dirties (that had been left out in the sun for a week) came in from the Indian Reservation.
Unsurprisingly, most people quit on Thursdays....which is exactly why paychecks weren't issued until the end of the Friday shift.

The real question is WHY would I bring this up?
Other than trying to fit the world's worst "occupation" to a known architect, I have no f_cking idea.....

Now, where the hell is the cap to my opened growler?

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post #1102 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

A too far inside joke....in a weird, non-alcoholic haze kinda way.

When I was 17 years old and living in Phoenix, I had a job counting, cleaning, and drying baby diapers (no joke) for a company called Dy-Dee Diaper Service.
Anyway, it goes without saying the job....stank....literally.
Fridays was always the crappiest day of the week.
It was the day the sealed plastic bags of dirties (that had been left out in the sun for a week) came in from the Indian Reservation.
Unsurprisingly, most people quit on Thursdays....which is exactly why paychecks weren't issued until the end of the Friday shift.

The real question is WHY would I bring this up?
Other than trying to fit the world's worst "occupation" to a known architect, I have no f_cking idea.....

Now, where the hell is the cap to my opened growler?
rotfl biggrin.gif

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post #1103 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

A too far inside joke....in a weird, non-alcoholic haze kinda way.

When I was 17 years old and living in Phoenix, I had a job counting, cleaning, and drying baby diapers (no joke) for a company called Dy-Dee Diaper Service.
Anyway, it goes without saying the job....stank....literally.
Fridays was always the crappiest day of the week.
It was the day the sealed plastic bags of dirties (that had been left out in the sun for a week) came in from the Indian Reservation.
Unsurprisingly, most people quit on Thursdays....which is exactly why paychecks weren't issued until the end of the Friday shift.

The real question is WHY would I bring this up?
Other than trying to fit the world's worst "occupation" to a known architect, I have no f_cking idea.....

Now, where the hell is the cap to my opened growler?
Actually, if I would have given it more thought and wasn't dropping off to my afternoon siesta, I would have used this more clever (and lucid) tie-in:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archie_Bunker

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post #1104 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 07:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

A too far inside joke....in a weird, non-alcoholic haze kinda way.

When I was 17 years old and living in Phoenix, I had a job counting, cleaning, and drying baby diapers (no joke) for a company called Dy-Dee Diaper Service.
Anyway, it goes without saying the job....stank....literally.
Fridays was always the crappiest day of the week.
It was the day the sealed plastic bags of dirties (that had been left out in the sun for a week) came in from the Indian Reservation.
Unsurprisingly, most people quit on Thursdays....which is exactly why paychecks weren't issued until the end of the Friday shift.

The real question is WHY would I bring this up?
Other than trying to fit the world's worst "occupation" to a known architect, I have no f_cking idea.....

Now, where the hell is the cap to my opened growler?

Damn. Mike Rowe has nothing on you.

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post #1105 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 08:29 PM
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post #1106 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 08:35 PM
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Just found out Rossi and Lorenzo are teammates this year. eek.gif Its on! smile.gif

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post #1107 of 4793 Old 04-05-2013, 11:43 PM
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Damn. Mike Rowe has nothing on you.
Stories?
I got lottsa stories......wink.gif



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That's wrong (but not entirely)....tongue.gif

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post #1108 of 4793 Old 04-06-2013, 08:38 AM
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Stories?
I got lottsa stories......wink.gif

My version of that is, I am an old man and have had many experiences, most of which never happened.

When I was in the navy, where sailors have always been expert tellers of tall tales, known colloquially as "Sea Stories," such tales were often prefaced by the phrase, "And this is no s*it!"smile.gif
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post #1109 of 4793 Old 04-06-2013, 08:41 AM
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My version of that is, I am an old man and have had many experiences, most of which never happened.
I have to remember that line....cool.gif

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post #1110 of 4793 Old 04-06-2013, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

My version of that is, I am an old man and have had many experiences, most of which never happened.
Thats great stuff sailor. Thank you for your service. My Dad was a carrier aircraft mechanic back in the propeller days. Served on the Enterprise among others. Ill bet you guys would get along great.

No, Mr. Bond. I expect you to die!
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