Possibility of Fox/Disney going 1080? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 22 Old 01-20-2013, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Hey all,
My apologies if this has been discussed.
I was curious to find out if this is a possibility. With the proliferation of inexpensive large screen 1080 televisions, I am wondering if either of these broadcasters are rethinking their strategy.
This is most noticeable to me during football season. Without an A/B comparison 720p looks good enough. Although when I am watching a game on Fox, and then I switch over to CBS, the difference is immediately noticeable. Granted I do most of my football watching on large screens while sitting pretty close. Typically I watch on a 120", 80" or 73" displays. I am actually in my kitchen right now sitting about 7' away from a 65". As soon as the NFC game ended and I switched to CBS, I was again reminded. The Fox games look soft compared to the CBS or NBC games(Sunday Night Football).


Thanks.
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post #2 of 22 Old 01-20-2013, 05:49 PM
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Short answer, no.

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
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post #3 of 22 Old 01-20-2013, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoT View Post

Hey all,
My apologies if this has been discussed.
I was curious to find out if this is a possibility. With the proliferation of inexpensive large screen 1080 televisions, I am wondering if either of these broadcasters are rethinking their strategy.

I'm confused since you seem to be talking about 1080p televisions which none of the major broadcasters support. Yes, 1080i is used by plenty of broadcasters but that is not the same.
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This is most noticeable to me during football season. Without an A/B comparison 720p looks good enough. Although when I am watching a game on Fox, and then I switch over to CBS, the difference is immediately noticeable. Granted I do most of my football watching on large screens while sitting pretty close. Typically I watch on a 120", 80" or 73" displays. I am actually in my kitchen right now sitting about 7' away from a 65". As soon as the NFC game ended and I switched to CBS, I was again reminded. The Fox games look soft compared to the CBS or NBC games(Sunday Night Football).

If you notice that big of a difference, then it has little to do with 720p vs 1080i.
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post #4 of 22 Old 01-20-2013, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Short answer, no.

Foxeng,
Thanks for the response.
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Originally Posted by rrainwater View Post

I'm confused since you seem to be talking about 1080p televisions which none of the major broadcasters support. Yes, 1080i is used by plenty of broadcasters but that is not the same.
If you notice that big of a difference, then it has little to do with 720p vs 1080i.


Unless, I am missing something, when talking about resolution, 1080i and 1080p are the same thing. So 1080i on a 1080p set would display in the native resolution of the set.

What is a big difference? The noticeable difference is subjective. But yes, when sitting 11 feet from an 80inch screen, there most definately is a difference between 720 and 1080.
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post #5 of 22 Old 01-20-2013, 11:41 PM
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Remember too that for sports the 60 full frames per second available with 720p format is considered superior for fast motion than the 30 interlaced frames per second with 1080i.
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post #6 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DinoT View Post

Hey all,
My apologies if this has been discussed.
I was curious to find out if this is a possibility. With the proliferation of inexpensive large screen 1080 televisions, I am wondering if either of these broadcasters are rethinking their strategy.
This is most noticeable to me during football season. Without an A/B comparison 720p looks good enough. Although when I am watching a game on Fox, and then I switch over to CBS, the difference is immediately noticeable. Granted I do most of my football watching on large screens while sitting pretty close. Typically I watch on a 120", 80" or 73" displays. I am actually in my kitchen right now sitting about 7' away from a 65". As soon as the NFC game ended and I switched to CBS, I was again reminded. The Fox games look soft compared to the CBS or NBC games(Sunday Night Football).


Thanks.

That's a little too close.
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post #7 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 06:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BriscoCountyJr View Post

Remember too that for sports the 60 full frames per second available with 720p format is considered superior for fast motion than the 30 interlaced frames per second with 1080i.

Well, I don't think that this is really as big of an issue since the shift away from analog HD displays (CRT). Add to that, that many fixed panel displays are 120Hz and higher, the interlaced issue is even less noticeable. Every set I have is 120Hz and higher. I can't notice a difference in fast motion between Fox/ESPN and CBS/NBC.

My concern is that in addition to the lower resolution of a 720 source, it must be further processed (upscaled) for a 1080 display.

Again, Fox/ESPN look fine without a comparison. As soon as I switch over to CBS, I then immediately notice that the 720 based channels are softer.
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post #8 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by joed32 View Post

That's a little too close.

You forgot to preface that statement with "IMO".
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post #9 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 10:55 AM
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I'm not much of a sports fan so can't comment on Football broadcasts. For other programming I find that the amount of compression applied by the broadcaster/service provider makes a lot more difference than the resolution of the signal and see little or no difference between ABC/Fox (720p) and NBC/CBS (1080i) on my 1080p set.

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post #10 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by rrainwater View Post

If you notice that big of a difference, then it has little to do with 720p vs 1080i.

 

 

Sorry, but that's ridiculous.  The difference between the two in terms if detail is quite significant.  Anybody with good vision, lack of bias, not working for FOX, ESPN/ABC, and watching on a decent size tv can see it.  This whole debate between 1080 vs 720 ended many years ago with 1080 wiping the floor with the dismal, fuzzy crap that is 720p.  Yes, even the more rational 720p backers finally whimpered off into the sunset as the proliferation of decent sized 1080 panels made the difference obvious to everyone who cared to actually view them subjectively.

 

Each time I watch a show or sporting event on one of the low end 720p stations I have to shake my head and think how much better the image could look with some decent resolution.  It's a giant shame those stations were sucked in by the theoretical "advantage" 720p supposedly had when initially making their plans to go digital.  Now we're stuck with watching crappy, low resolution programming all too often.  If I worked at FOX, ESPN/ABC I would be downright embarrassed when looking at the difference in the images they produce.  Unfortunately the majority of viewers simply are not discriminating about PQ so we're just stuck with it....

 

 

ron

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post #11 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R11 View Post

[...] the proliferation of decent sized 1080 panels made the difference obvious to everyone who cared to actually view them subjectively.

Freudian slip? biggrin.gif I will assume you meant objectively, and if objective analyses of 720 vs 1080 displays have actually been conducted, I'd be interested in seeing the double-blind viewing test results. It seems like setting up such a test would be rather difficult, so I'd be kind of surprised if such tests have been conducted often, if at all.
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post #12 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 01:34 PM
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Having the Sunday Ticket this year and seeing uncompressed CBS signals on many of the games (unlike what my crappy local station offers), it's easy to see the different in clarity with their 1080 picture versus what Fox offers on 720p. Where 720p has 1080 beat is the lack of macroblocking seen in 1080 video. But I noticed less of that with the uncompressed CBS video featured on Sunday Ticket than I do on local 1080 channels.
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post #13 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R11 View Post


Sorry, but that's ridiculous.  The difference between the two in terms if detail is quite significant.  Anybody with good vision, lack of bias, not working for FOX, ESPN/ABC, and watching on a decent size tv can see it.  This whole debate between 1080 vs 720 ended many years ago with 1080 wiping the floor with the dismal, fuzzy crap that is 720p.  Yes, even the more rational 720p backers finally whimpered off into the sunset as the proliferation of decent sized 1080 panels made the difference obvious to everyone who cared to actually view them subjectively.

Each time I watch a show or sporting event on one of the low end 720p stations I have to shake my head and think how much better the image could look with some decent resolution.  It's a giant shame those stations were sucked in by the theoretical "advantage" 720p supposedly had when initially making their plans to go digital.  Now we're stuck with watching crappy, low resolution programming all too often.  If I worked at FOX, ESPN/ABC I would be downright embarrassed when looking at the difference in the images they produce.  Unfortunately the majority of viewers simply are not discriminating about PQ so we're just stuck with it....


ron

The level, and type of compression has much more to do with the PQ than 1080i versus 720p IMO. I can set my Bluray player to output at 720p and it still looks far better than any 1080i HDTV broadcast I have ever seen.

I preferred the FOX NFL broadcast last weekend to what I got from CBS. ABC here is pathetic however. NBC's Sunday Night Football look stunning... until someone moves. And I do solemnly swear I have no relation to News Corps, Disney or any of their respective subsidiaries or affiliates.
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post #14 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by MRM4 View Post

Having the Sunday Ticket this year and seeing uncompressed CBS signals on many of the games (unlike what my crappy local station offers), it's easy to see the different in clarity with their 1080 picture versus what Fox offers on 720p. Where 720p has 1080 beat is the lack of macroblocking seen in 1080 video. But I noticed less of that with the uncompressed CBS video featured on Sunday Ticket than I do on local 1080 channels.

Sunday Ticket is not uncompressed. The feed that DirecTV is using maybe highbitrate MPEG-4, but what you see over DBS is compressed down to about 7 Mbps MPEG-4. Having seen Sunday Ticket, its softer than the local MPEG-2 CBS station, but doesn't suffer from the macroblocking during motion.-
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post #15 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Folks,

I do have satellite and Sunday Ticket. Yes an overly compressed picture can be somewhat compromised, BUT, I watch a good bit of football OTA. Even a compressed DirecTV game from CBS is still noticeably better than Fox OTA.
Where I am at, I can catch both Baltimore and Washington OTA channels. In addition, I watched all of the playoffs OTA. It was such a joy to be able to watch NFC games when NBC did the Saturday broadcasts in 1080. But after that, we had to go back to Fox and their 720.

I think part of the issue is in what one of the responses alluded to. Seating distance. I sit closer to larger displays. (Except my bedroom where my 70" is 18' away). In my viewing setup, 1080 is noticeably superior to 720. It isn't even close. I wouldn't expect an upscaled image to look as good as a 1:1 pixel mapped image.

It isn 't only football. Earlier today, I switched between my local Fox station's broadcast of the inauguration (only thing that was on OTA today which I could compare) and my local NBC. Again, NBC was quite a bit better.

Someone used the earlier example of Blu-Ray. On the same display, I can watch a scene on a source disc in 720. If I then re-watch it in 1080, it is noticeably sharper in 1080 (even if I force 1080i on the player).

I didn't really want this to turn into a thorough discussion on the merits of 720p vs. 1080i. I was just wondering if there was a chance that Fox/Disney would change. If you are happy with 720p, so be it. I am not here to try and change your mind.

Thanks
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post #16 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 03:26 PM
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R11 +1 biggrin.gif
I've never seen a 720p broadcast that can equal a good 1080i broadcast. In fact my local ABC channel allocates such little bandwidth to their 720p channel not only does it look soft but macroblocks badly too mad.gif
OTH my local CBS channel has no subs and looks great in all but the most demanding scenes(confetti, strobes, etc.). Like R11 I've never seen a problem with 1080 being interlaced which was supposed to be the advantage of the 720 progressive format. Sure 720p may compress better than 1080i but as my local ABC channel proves even 720p can be over compressed.
From what I've read all modern equipment has the ability to run on 720p or 1080i so like the OP was wondering, is there any reason say ABC or FOX couldn't switch to 720p or is that they actually feel their is an advantage to sticking with 720p?
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post #17 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 03:55 PM
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Love reading threads like this - people so sure of themselves - yet having things completely wrong...

1080i is not universally better than 720p

720p is not universally better than 1080i

They are very different - and there are many factors besides the number of lines and number of frames per second that go into what you end up seeing broadcast on your TVs.


As for the original question - no network will be going to 1080p anytime soon until they solve the compression+bandwidth problem.
And there is little reason for a network to change from 1080i to 720p or vice versa.
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post #18 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
I didn't really want this to turn into a thorough discussion on the merits of 720p vs. 1080i. I was just wondering if there was a chance that Fox/Disney would change.

I think the answer to that is NO.

Afro GT
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post #19 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 05:33 PM
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Another vote from someone sure of himself. Given decent bandwidth for both, 1080i provides a significantly better picture than 720p.

... and it's not even close.
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post #20 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

Another vote from someone sure of himself. Given decent bandwidth for both, 1080i provides a significantly better picture than 720p.

... and it's not even close.

I am not using this as a basis for comparison, but the other thing noticeably better between NBC/CBS vs Fox is the graphics. By graphics, I mean, scoreboard etc... the scoreboard on the 1080 channels is razor sharp. Fox, not so much. Now I am not going to use this to compare 1080i vs. 720p as whatever is generating the graphics might not be similar between them.
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post #21 of 22 Old 01-21-2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by BriscoCountyJr View Post

Remember too that for sports the 60 full frames per second available with 720p format is considered superior for fast motion than the 30 interlaced frames per second with 1080i.

Although that is often cited as the reason that some providers decided to go with 720p, my eyes have never seen any evidence that 720p offers superior motion performance. When watching 1080i, I am not aware of any motion problems -- both formats are hampered more by today's display technologies, which have very poor motion performance (compared to the CRT). One only needs to look at a credit roll to see how bad it is -- depending on the speed of the text, it can be completely unreadable. The only exception I've seen to this (so far) is OLED. That has motion performance that equals or exceeds a CRT (to my eyes). Text looks the same whether it is moving or still.
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post #22 of 22 Old 01-22-2013, 08:38 AM
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Bickering deleted.

Since the OP's original question seems to have been answered a whole lotta posts ago, I'm closing this thread.

While we're at it, comparing Fox vs CBS is, frankly, impossible unless you're seeing video off of a downlink at a television station. Comparing OTA networks in any form other than a locally-specific discussion is meaningless. Every affiliate is different and every situation is different. Some have subchannels and MDTV added to the stream. Some use different encoders. Some have different settings on identical decoders. I guarantee you the video chain between the network feed and the transmitter is different in every single station. No two are exactly alike. And every box in the stream does SOMETHING to the end product. So, one poster can say "I see all kinds of macroblocking on CBS" and another one can say, "Whaddya talking about, CBS is the most pristine picture evarrrr" and both will be right.

For that matter, when discussing football games, even the production trucks are different. Which can very well be why an early game looks better than a late game on the same affiliate.

For purposes of network quality discussions, the call letters of the affiliate should be use and not the network. There are just too many variables to assign any global absolutes to any network based on what you see on your television.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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