VIKINGS on History - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:59 AM
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And I need all the sanity I can get. tongue.gif
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:11 PM
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Another thing that's a bit odd about this re-warming to Borg, Lagartha supposedly encouraged the other Jarl to devote some forces to dislodging Borg so as to protect his own Jarldom. One can assume some number of them were slain in the battle, for Rags to then flirt with rejoining forces with Borg might rub that Jarl the wrong way and net a foe instead of an ally.
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:16 PM
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Another thing that's a bit odd about this re-warming to Borg, Lagartha supposedly encouraged the other Jarl to devote some forces to dislodging Borg so as to protect his own Jarldom. One can assume some number of them were slain in the battle, for Rags to then flirt with rejoining forces with Borg might rub that Jarl the wrong way and net a foe instead of an ally.

Unless he brings Lagartha's Jarl into the alliance. They'll need all the men they can get to invade England again, considering the considerable losses they've already endured (including half of Ragnar's task force and most of Horick's) It would also serve to keep Lagartha in the show, a goal I heartily endorse.
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:33 PM
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Unless he brings Lagartha's Jarl into the alliance. They'll need all the men they can get to invade England again, considering the considerable losses they've already endured (including half of Ragnar's task force and most of Horick's) It would also serve to keep Lagartha in the show, a goal I heartily endorse.
Could be. I gather that many of the historical Viking excursions into GB were much larger than what we've seen so far. I'm guessing they could use CGI effects (almost certainly already have) to make their fleet look larger cause no way can they afford 10 or 20 actual ships.

If Lag's Jarl is confident that Lags is his, I mean she let her son go but came back herself, maybe he'll warm to the idea of working with Rags. I wish they'd cast the guy a bit better though. He doesn't fit the part well.
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Old 04-01-2014, 05:01 PM
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The fluidness of the alliances between Rags, Horrick, Borg, Jarl and who knows whoever else are not really credible IMO.
It's hard to believe their followers would accept a life of being cannon fodder for these guys, especially since a simple knife in the back changes which guy is in power at any given moment.
The only way they could hang on to power would have been thru the acquiescence of the ruled.

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Old 04-04-2014, 09:21 AM
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Well. So much for Ragnar being a man of vision whose ambition for conquest of far-off lands exceeds his base desire for revenge. eek.gif

I wonder if Rollo was in on the counter-betrayal of Jarl Borg from the start, or if Rags let him in on it after Borg got to Kettegat? Horik was clearly surprised. Pretty hard-core to burn Borg's men alive (after telling them to be quiet and they'd be safe -- psych!). Rags probably felt he couldn't trust them after getting his vengeance on their leader. At least he has their boats now. Still not enough men to raid England however, as Horik told him.

Don't frak with Lagertha. eek.gif My guess is she'll either marry another dude, maybe the guy that beheaded her husband, or ascend to that Earldom herself. Did women ever do that in Viking society? They were more egalitarian that the more "civilized" Christians in some ways, but don't know if they ever went that far. In any event, maybe those guys -- some of whom already fought for Ragnar against Borg -- will now bolster Rags & Horik's forces for another raid on England.
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Old 04-04-2014, 12:30 PM
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Well. So much for Ragnar being a man of vision whose ambition for conquest of far-off lands exceeds his base desire for revenge. eek.gif

I wonder if Rollo was in on the counter-betrayal of Jarl Borg from the start, or if Rags let him in on it after Borg got to Kettegat? Horik was clearly surprised. Pretty hard-core to burn Borg's men alive (after telling them to be quiet and they'd be safe -- psych!). Rags probably felt he couldn't trust them after getting his vengeance on their leader. At least he has their boats now. Still not enough men to raid England however, as Horik told him.

Don't frak with Lagertha. eek.gif My guess is she'll either marry another dude, maybe the guy that beheaded her husband, or ascend to that Earldom herself. Did women ever do that in Viking society? They were more egalitarian that the more "civilized" Christians in some ways, but don't know if they ever went that far. In any event, maybe those guys -- some of whom already fought for Ragnar against Borg -- will now bolster Rags & Horik's forces for another raid on England.
The way they setup the previews made me suspicious that Rags had a double cross planned...and it may be a double double...watch out Horik. Lags will get the earldom I believe. She and Rags will get involved somewhere down the line, I'm sure.

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Old 04-04-2014, 08:35 PM
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Most interesting of all was the King's fascination with the Romans from centuries beforehand. They left examples of their art unequalled until the yet not happened renaissance. What must it have been like to be intellectually curious and faced with a huge ancient mystery dangerous even for a King to investigate?
The only thing I'd personally like to investigate more would be Lagertha's...but I digress.
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:55 AM
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Quite an episode, all the implausibilities aside. I guess it was silly to think that Rags would warm to Borg. Rags is much more interested in Ecbert than Horick methinks and Horick wants revenge on Ecbert. Plus, Horick first backed out on the deal and made Rags relay the info to Borg, and then wouldn't go to help Rags rescue his family, and now wants to give Borg another go? When he said to Horick "Did you really think I was going to forgive this man . . . " sounds like he's soured on Horick's counsel.

What eludes me: what is Horick's pull? We have virtually no knowledge of his lands, the extent of his power, etc. We've seen more of Earl uhhh, the guy who's face fell, his place than we've seen of Horick's which is nothing. And now it's like he's crashing with Rags. Why is Horick king?

Also, stretches credulity that Borg would calmly go for those quarters on Rags' territory. No comrades and/or guards nearby? Then again they were portraying him as irrational, what with the skull. I guess one didn't have to be a genius to be Earl back in the day. Some had more power than brains.

Which brings me to Lagartha's Earl. How was that guy Earl? And why did he have an audience for his every whim? Seems people were always listening to him do the dirty laundry. But then, we know of tyrant kings, Nero, etc. Could be dude inherited power from his father in a time of relative calm. He appeared quite powerful physically, so perhaps such a character could actually have power. Odd match, implausible but oh well.

But regarding the producers, all is forgiven for the bold stroke they gave Lagartha. What a memorable scene. Hard to imagine having a larger audience for justifiable homicide. I'm guessing one could bleed to death from such a wound, especially in that day. Pretty wild the way that swordsman put a sock in the poor boy's wailing.
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:25 AM
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Most interesting of all was the King's fascination with the Romans from centuries beforehand. They left examples of their art unequalled until the yet not happened renaissance. What must it have been like to be intellectually curious and faced with a huge ancient mystery dangerous even for a King to investigate?
The only thing I'd personally like to investigate more would be Lagertha's...but I digress.
I like the direction they're going with this. Athleston is on the cusp of being some kind of breakthrough historian/anthropologist of his day. At home in two cultures and not overly judgmental or attached to either.

Those relics must have been well cared for. It would have been about 5 to 6 hundred years since the glory years of Rome, 400 at least as it was winding down around the year 400 IIRC.
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Old 04-05-2014, 10:03 AM
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And good ol' Siggy, setting the standard to which today's schoolteachers aspire!
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:57 AM
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floki stole the show with that line last episod
e

Quit failing to flip the switch
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Old 04-05-2014, 02:31 PM
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We've always sort of known that Floki was some combo brilliant craftsman and sadistic whack job. Pretty wild the way all of them get into hard core vengeance.
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Old 04-06-2014, 01:20 AM
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Well. So much for Ragnar being a man of vision whose ambition for conquest of far-off lands exceeds his base desire for revenge. eek.gif

I wonder if Rollo was in on the counter-betrayal of Jarl Borg from the start, or if Rags let him in on it after Borg got to Kettegat? Horik was clearly surprised.
AND looking at the previews, it appears Borg survives.

This episode felt completely pulled out of someone's hind end.
IMO, the writing for this show has become problematic....it seem like the showrunners are making this up as they go along.rolleyes.gif

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At least he has their boats now. Still not enough men to raid England however, as Horik told him.
True....Lags to the rescue!!wink.gif

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She and Rags will get involved somewhere down the line, I'm sure.
+1000000000

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Old 04-06-2014, 02:44 AM
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I roll my eyes at parts of the story right and left and alternately let myself go and overlook all the flaws. Two or three parts of the last episode were a bit much. Little things, such as Rollo has an audience with Borg after only recently trying to kill each other twice and he starts off by grilling him about the skull and whether or not it's fair to his living wife to consult with it that way? And the setting the barn on fire and then striding away was striking. There were other buildings quite close, no way are they going to split and trust the fire will confine itself to the building they have in mind.

And the golden opportunity for Lags to strike at Siegfried landed in her lap with such perfect timing, and the perfect batch of witnesses, I mean in this case fiction is stranger than truth. But I still liked it. I'm a sucker.
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Old 04-06-2014, 05:32 PM
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I think the internal logic of politics among the Vikings is pretty consistent. Go read a few Wiki entries on some of these figures mentioned in the show...especially the children. Hell they teamed up with inlaws and outlaws against other family relations all the time. Tales of great revenges and treachery abound. Political power was very much reputation based...lose a few Q points and your royal family gets trapped in the hall with the fires burning.

Remember previews are meant to be misleading...Borg's going to grow wings out of back...believe it.

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Old 04-11-2014, 01:46 AM
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I gather that there is some dispute over the historical reality of the blood eagle thing. Alleged by some to be part of mythology. Hard to say, it looked like some serious work to me. Maybe if you had a bolt cutter to cut the ribs but the hatchet method? Whoa. I could see a guy sweating over that, wondering if it was such a good idea after all.
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Old 04-11-2014, 04:34 PM
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That whole blood-eagle thing was pretty hard-core. I don't see how anyone could survive even part way into it before passing out from the pain. eek.gif

So what was the whole thing with Horick, where Horick agreed to free Jarl Borg, in order to team up and kiil Rags? Or did Ragnar, finding his alley in Lagertha, deem that was long enough to wait and executed Borg before Horick had a chance to "bust him out"...?
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Old 04-11-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

That whole blood-eagle thing was pretty hard-core. I don't see how anyone could survive even part way into it before passing out from the pain. eek.gif

So what was the whole thing with Horick, where Horick agreed to free Jarl Borg, in order to team up and kiil Rags? Or did Ragnar, finding his alley in Lagertha, deem that was long enough to wait and executed Borg before Horick had a chance to "bust him out"...?

I'm not sure who was scamming who, any or all of Horrick, Floki, and Siggi may have been putting on an act, and the question is what was orchestrated by Ragnar.

Meanwhile, in England, the two kings should have persuaded Mercia to join them against the Vikings. The internal fight will weaken all three and leave them vulnerable to Viking raids.
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Old 04-11-2014, 07:38 PM
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That whole blood-eagle thing was pretty hard-core. I don't see how anyone could survive even part way into it before passing out from the pain. eek.gif


Agreed. No one would sit there and keep their unsecured hands on those posts. I know, his hand dropped once. rolleyes.gif Like you said, I don't care how tough you are, NO ONE could tolerate that pain. It's not anything you have control over. Your body would shut you down whether you wanted it to or not.

It was quite the spectacle though.
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Old 04-11-2014, 08:04 PM
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Agreed. No one would sit there and keep their unsecured hands on those posts. I know, his hand dropped once. rolleyes.gif Like you said, I don't care how tough you are, NO ONE could tolerate that pain. It's not anything you have control over. Your body would shut you down whether you wanted it to or not.

It was quite the spectacle though.
Told you guys it was coming:D. Horik's gonna plot himself into being the next blessing when they do a sacrifice to blood the keel on the next new ship. They used to lay that guy out face down and run the new boat over him...keel right along the back...crushed them pretty good and blessed the boat for the gods.

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Old 04-12-2014, 01:39 AM
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That whole blood-eagle thing was pretty hard-core. I don't see how anyone could survive even part way into it before passing out from the pain. eek.gif
Dumb writing.
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So what was the whole thing with Horick, where Horick agreed to free Jarl Borg, in order to team up and kiil Rags? Or did Ragnar, finding his alley in Lagertha, deem that was long enough to wait and executed Borg before Horick had a chance to "bust him out"...?
More dumb writing (and leave Rags travelling down Lags' "alley" out of it).

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Agreed. No one would sit there and keep their unsecured hands on those posts. I know, his hand dropped once. rolleyes.gif Like you said, I don't care how tough you are, NO ONE could tolerate that pain. It's not anything you have control over. Your body would shut you down whether you wanted it to or not.
There is something physiological coming into play during situations like this....it's called "shock."
Anyone who has ever been "in shock" knows there isn't any way possible for the brain to be in control.

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Told you guys it was coming:D. Horik's gonna plot himself into being the next blessing when they do a sacrifice to blood the keel on the next new ship. They used to lay that guy out face down and run the new boat over him...keel right along the back...crushed them pretty good and blessed the boat for the gods.
Are you sure Rags is smart enough to see thru Horick?
So far, he hasn't shown much forethought.

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Old 04-12-2014, 02:15 AM
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That whole blood-eagle thing was pretty hard-core. I don't see how anyone could survive even part way into it before passing out from the pain. eek.gif

So what was the whole thing with Horick, where Horick agreed to free Jarl Borg, in order to team up and kiil Rags? Or did Ragnar, finding his alley in Lagertha, deem that was long enough to wait and executed Borg before Horick had a chance to "bust him out"...?
I accidentally read a link with some inside dope from a producer, the producer, whatever, I'll just quote the piece:

We’d shot a scene, which isn’t in there in the end, where someone asked him, “Why did you say that you would save him?” and Horik says, “I never would have saved him, unless someone has hope, they don’t really suffer,” so he went in to give him this false hope, and I liked that scene. He made Jarl Borg believe for a moment that he was going to get out of there.

I got a few scoops I didn't really want but it's not going to spoil much.

I broke 5 ribs years ago in a fall from a faulty scaffold. Could have been a lot worse, I healed up well but damn that stuff hurts and my experience was a tiny fraction of what they portrayed. I wonder about that actually happening. I don't think it would be at all easy to pull the ribs apart. A lot of muscle and tissue surrounds the ribs plus they're connected in front. Also the collarbone and shoulder connections might get in the way. Imagine you're in the middle of it, the guy is writhing and howling in pain and you can't bring the whole thing to its climax. Then what, quickly behead the guy and be done with it?
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Old 04-12-2014, 08:38 AM
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I accidentally read a link with some inside dope from a producer, the producer, whatever, I'll just quote the piece:

We’d shot a scene, which isn’t in there in the end, where someone asked him, “Why did you say that you would save him?” and Horik says, “I never would have saved him, unless someone has hope, they don’t really suffer,” so he went in to give him this false hope, and I liked that scene. He made Jarl Borg believe for a moment that he was going to get out of there.
Should have put the scene in.

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I don't think it would be at all easy to pull the ribs apart. A lot of muscle and tissue surrounds the ribs plus they're connected in front. Also the collarbone and shoulder connections might get in the way.
Yeah, it doesn't sound realistic....however:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_eagle

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Old 04-12-2014, 09:59 AM
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Dumb writing.
More dumb writing (and leave Rags travelling down Lags' "alley" out of it)

I agree that this week's show wasn't very smart. The life of my Vikings' season pass is hanging by a thread.
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Old 04-12-2014, 01:34 PM
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I agree that this week's show wasn't very smart. The life of my Vikings' season pass is hanging by a thread.
Mine too.
I almost turned it off this episode (whenever I do that, I'm done with a series).wink.gif

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Old 04-12-2014, 02:39 PM
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It was not the best episode, rough spots but good ones too. I suspect I'll be onboard for a while. This season will likely end in grand fashion, like last year, and we'll have a year, 10 months anyway, of not finding much in the near wasteland on telly to wonder about how good it would be to see Vikings back again.

One thing is a bit odd - as we know they're trying to be historically accurate, on the large points anyway, AKA, the ones that are known - we know that Ragnar will emerge victorious, alive at any rate, in anything that happens, short of the snake pit anyway. But he's not the whole story and he's really not all that loveable so it's a minor distraction.

I wonder what was up with the sword that Floki pulled from the skeletal hands? Seems you wouldn't bury an enemy with something that valuable. Family member perhaps? It looked like the actual known Viking swords that I've seen from video and pictures. They had a couple of them on Pawn Stars recently. One of his expert consultants brought them in for show and tell. The swords we see on the show in general look much more modern. Seems like they could make plastic or wooden swords that look original for use in filming. Hard to imagine they'd use actual steel swords, even dull ones for filming the battle scenes.

Another small implausibility: would Ragnar have actually allowed himself to be lured into the woods with a small party to meet someone he didn't know, someone who was persuaded that Ragnar was coming? Seems ripe for an ambush.
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:56 PM
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.

I wonder what was up with the sword that Floki pulled from the skeletal hands? Seems you wouldn't bury an enemy with something that valuable. Family member perhaps? It looked like the actual known Viking swords that I've seen from video and pictures. They had a couple of them on Pawn Stars recently. One of his expert consultants brought them in for show and tell. The swords we see on the show in general look much more modern. Seems like they could make plastic or wooden swords that look original for use in filming. Hard to imagine they'd use actual steel swords, even dull ones for filming the battle scenes.
You have a point.
It's also important to remember the swords that have survived have aged and wouldn't have the same sheen as when first produced.

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Another small implausibility: would Ragnar have actually allowed himself to be lured into the woods with a small party to meet someone he didn't know, someone who was persuaded that Ragnar was coming? Seems ripe for an ambush.
One of those "rough spots" you mentioned.wink.gif

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Old 04-12-2014, 04:58 PM
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I wonder what was up with the sword that Floki pulled from the skeletal hands? Seems you wouldn't bury an enemy with something that valuable. Family member perhaps? It looked like the actual known Viking swords that I've seen from video and pictures. They had a couple of them on Pawn Stars recently. One of his expert consultants brought them in for show and tell. The swords we see on the show in general look much more modern. Seems like they could make plastic or wooden swords that look original for use in filming. Hard to imagine they'd use actual steel swords, even dull ones for filming the battle scenes.

I'm pretty sure Floki knelt down and said something like "hello father" as he uncovered the skeleton. I figured it was his father's sword, something old, while his wife brought something new. All that was missing was something borrowed and blue.

Although implausible the way it was performed, I still thought the blood eagle ending was powerful. It was a nice touch having some of the witnesses turn away in revulsion. Even the barbaric Vikings have their limits for violence.
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Old 04-13-2014, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by aeromorris View Post

I'm pretty sure Floki knelt down and said something like "hello father" as he uncovered the skeleton. I figured it was his father's sword, something old, while his wife brought something new. All that was missing was something borrowed and blue.

Although implausible the way it was performed, I still thought the blood eagle ending was powerful. It was a nice touch having some of the witnesses turn away in revulsion. Even the barbaric Vikings have their limits for violence.
Ah, that makes sense, he did say something with that tone, hard to tell with him. I swear I can't understand every 3rd or 4th utterance on these shows, even replayed several times with mega volume. The fellow on Pawn Stars was saying that the sword steel of that era, there anyway, didn't have an especially high carbon content but it was enough to make a big difference.

I agree that there was some purpose to showing the blood eagle thing. Not prudent to whitewash these people and it's easy to do. We want to like Ragnar on several levels but I suspect that scene of him and his top buddy, forget the name, doing the jousting with shields and weapons in the darkened hall and then mock threatening the emissary was not far off the mark. That sort of unchecked power tends to make people pretty arrogant.

But yeah, the way they portrayed the blood eagle would likely not have worked. Would have to tightly tie the wrists and suspend from above. One thing I discovered when I had my broken ribs, everything your arms and legs do pushes off the foundation of your trunk. Should be pretty obvious I suppose but when you're in the moment, the point is driven home for you. Good lord, for a few days it hurt like bloody hell to do anything with my arms, legs a bit better. Even if the guy didn't pass out, I don't think his arms would have been of any use to him, even with that hook arrangement his hands were placed in.
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