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oink's Avatar oink 04:50 PM 04-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

I hope in a good way...with tongue firmly placed against your cheek. But, if you're offended, then it's the forums fault for not creating a sarcasm font especially for me. Because it was brilliant.
biggrin.gif

Ron Temple's Avatar Ron Temple 05:54 PM 04-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

biggrin.gif
oink, you and I have been on the same page since we schooled Josh Z about the artistic merits of "Immortel". We both own the movie now and probably be more inclined to agree with him...but, he's a movie critic...f'him.biggrin.gif
oink's Avatar oink 06:22 PM 04-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

oink, you and I have been on the same page since we schooled Josh Z about the artistic merits of "Immortel". We both own the movie now and probably be more inclined to agree with him...but, he's a movie critic...f'him.biggrin.gif
"Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."wink.gif
Ron Temple's Avatar Ron Temple 07:31 PM 04-21-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

"Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."wink.gif
No, an apology from Josh is definitilibaly called for. However, I can't seem to spell definitibaly
.
cmac2012's Avatar cmac2012 01:36 AM 04-22-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

+1
Makes for good TV.wink.gif
No doubt.
Even if the "practice" sword was dull, it would be really easy to break someone's arm or hand.
Actually, the Japanese were late to the game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel
Again, makes for good TV.biggrin.gif
I wasn't sure of the Japanese timeline, just searched it and you're right - not til around 900 or 1000 did they have good swords. Dunno if they pioneered the multiple folding method of carbonizing the steel or not. I wasn't sure how many times they folded it - Wikipedia says 16 times. According to Excel, that results in 65,536 layers of steel. They go on to say that folding it more than that didn't seem to add any benefit.

I can see how a battle axe could be effective. And you get more bang for the buck with them so not surprising they would be commonly used.
oink's Avatar oink 03:22 PM 04-24-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post

I can see how a battle axe could be effective. And you get more bang for the buck with them so not surprising they would be commonly used.
The Battle Axe has always puzzled me.
It seems like it would be too heavy to use effectively in the field.
Obviously, it wouldn't be worth a damn except possible up close (forget the throwing thing).
As far as a jousting one-on-one kind of a weapon, I don't see it.

I can see where this would EXTREMELY effective as a coup de grâce weapon on the battlefield.
A nice way to dispatch the wounded...wink.gif
cmac2012's Avatar cmac2012 01:41 AM 04-25-2014
I think they had Rollo using an axe to take down a horse or two. The medium style hatchet that Ragnar uses, two often, seems more effective and versatile. One thing that absolutely didn't work for me is why no archers among the Viks? They knew there would be horses. You can't hold off horses with a shield wall. One also wonders why the ambush of Ecbert's son's entourage was never brought up. We don't know if Rags even knows that Horick undercut him with that, and this after Horick saying 'don't go behind my back.'

If Floki is doing the long con, he's doing a good job of it. Of course if they wanted to fool us (the writers) they'd have him doing a good job of it, and he is a trickster. Brings me back to that scene where Siggy asked him if he could keep a secret and he said "no."

I liked the episode tonight, had a lot of good moments. The Roman military lives on English soil again, sort of. I wonder what was up with the archer in the woods as Rags and Athleston were walking. One of Horick's people perhaps?

We sorta know what happens next week, I mean King Aella and the snake pit are not in Kattegut. But there is the other intrigue to consider.
jabbathespud's Avatar jabbathespud 10:28 AM 04-25-2014
We do know Ragnar knew about the ambush because he escorted the priest so Horick's men couldn't shot him with an arrow.
cmac2012's Avatar cmac2012 02:55 PM 04-25-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabbathespud View Post

We do know Ragnar knew about the ambush because he escorted the priest so Horick's men couldn't shot him with an arrow.
Good point. One can only guess that Ragnar declined to confront him directly and condemn his conduct because he is king. One thing that has bothered me about this series is that they don't provide too much by way of indicating the foundation of Horick's power. You almost never see him with his own entourage or bodyguards. To watch the show, you'd think that Ragnar has more power. Another point where one must suspend disbelief. It would take perhaps way too many minutes of the series to provide an accurate looking description of Horick's power base, and he's likely done next week anyway.
earletp's Avatar earletp 06:31 PM 04-25-2014
Re-watch the first five minutes again if you get the chance.
There was a whole scene with Ragnar confronting the king, "King Horich, your behavior has made it very difficult to talk peace or negotiate with King Eckbert" to which Horick replied he never had any intention of negotiating and only wanted revenge.
Ron Temple's Avatar Ron Temple 07:32 PM 04-25-2014
Ragnar's not a peacenik, none of the Viks were. If they wanted land, they took it. The show is implying that Rags is there to negotiate peace. There were many peace talks usually after the Viks had bled the kingdom. What's not being said on the show is that the Viks avoided direct clashes with standing armies unless they had advantages. In that light, Rags wanting a pow wow to get the lay of the land makes sense. Horik's actions were just plain stupid. As shown on the show, he wouldn't have lasted long.
cmac2012's Avatar cmac2012 11:50 PM 04-25-2014
I think maybe the writers are trying to fill in some gray area between when the first small excursions of Viks made it to England and the later virtual conquests of much of the island. The first few expeditions of one or two boats could only have succeeded with lightning surprise attacks. Trying to hold down some sort of fort on a piece of land and farm it would take a much bigger force. We saw an example of what the home team could do in this last episode, given the time to plan and prepare.

Rags would perhaps see that he didn't have the brute force to do whatever the hell he wanted and seek to make some kind of deal.
Ron Temple's Avatar Ron Temple 12:15 AM 04-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post

I think maybe the writers are trying to fill in some gray area between when the first small excursions of Viks made it to England and the later virtual conquests of much of the island. The first few expeditions of one or two boats could only have succeeded with lightning surprise attacks. Trying to hold down some sort of fort on a piece of land and farm it would take a much bigger force. We saw an example of what the home team could do in this last episode, given the time to plan and prepare.

Rags would perhaps see that he didn't have the brute force to do whatever the hell he wanted and seek to make some kind of deal.
What's left unspoken of Ragnar's goals, is that he historically was a pirate and slaver that was very successful. Certainly as portrayed, Rags is smart enough to get the lay of the land and perhaps want to expand his territory, but I think the show is moralizing him somewhat in order to make him more sympathetic to our audience.

The Lindisfarne incursion which they give credit to Rags for, was before his time. The great Viking invasion happened somewhere between 845 - 865AD.. What precipitated it was the death of Ragnar and the invasion was led by his sons. They kept Northumbria and portions of Mercia and York, but the fragmented leadership soon split up seeking more plunder. Shortly after, there were many Viking incursions from various groups that were successful in holding territory or weren't....depending. The lifestyle didn't sync well with political coheseivness. There was always some chieftain coming up that mucked things up for the others.

Suggested reading:

The Long Ships
The Bernard Cornwell Series
Fantasy/Alertnate History: Harry Harrison ( The Hammer and the Cross Series) I add this because it's well researched, entirely fiction but the groundwork was laid at Ragnar's death and the actual invasion of England by his sons.
oink's Avatar oink 01:01 AM 04-26-2014
This series is really suffering from poor writing.
It's reached a point where the writers are now throwing darts at a board.
There are serious continuity problems....don't know how long I can hold on.
cmac2012's Avatar cmac2012 10:39 AM 04-26-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by earletp View Post

Re-watch the first five minutes again if you get the chance.
There was a whole scene with Ragnar confronting the king, "King Horich, your behavior has made it very difficult to talk peace or negotiate with King Eckbert" to which Horick replied he never had any intention of negotiating and only wanted revenge.
Ah, of course. I watched my tape of it again, that has to be what he meant. Didn't hear that part clearly first time through.

Regarding Ron's point about Rags the pirate, I agree - they're trying to make him into some breakthrough man of history. Who knows, he might have had some extra vision, apparently he had the wherewithal to raise a large family and that alone might make him a bit more complex than his peers. Or, he just liked doing the nasty and had much opportunity.
Wytchone's Avatar Wytchone 07:17 AM 05-02-2014
What no chatter? Did anyone else watch the Season ender?

I did not see that coming but then again. How else would you have a season 3?
jabbathespud's Avatar jabbathespud 08:00 AM 05-02-2014
How could you not see that coming?
Wytchone's Avatar Wytchone 08:01 AM 05-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabbathespud View Post

How could you not see that coming?

I like to try and surprise myself when the plot is that wide open smile.gif
gemini70's Avatar gemini70 01:34 PM 05-02-2014

The 'END' was very dark..understandable.. but.. I had a hard time seeing WHO died.. who survived... (other then Ragner.. Horik..) please.. did Rollo and Agistan (I know I did not spell the name right. The MONK..) ..Better yet.. WHO WAS SLAIN???


Wytchone's Avatar Wytchone 01:46 PM 05-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by gemini70 View Post

The 'END' was very dark..understandable.. but.. I had a hard time seeing WHO died.. who survived... (other then Ragner.. Horik..) please.. did Rollo and Agistan (I know I did not spell the name right. The MONK..) ..Better yet.. WHO WAS SLAIN???

H
A
I
L

H
Y
D
R
A
Pretty much all Ragners crow lived. King Horik son may be alive... but the girls dead.
jabbathespud's Avatar jabbathespud 02:54 PM 05-02-2014
No, they killed his younger sons but let Horick's daughters alive. All hail King Ragnar.
WinterKnight's Avatar WinterKnight 03:57 PM 05-02-2014
There is a Maureen Ryan interview on Huffpost with creator Michael Hirst where he says all of King Horik's daughters were killed as well. The women in the scene that Bjorn let go were the family's slaves.
cmac2012's Avatar cmac2012 04:30 PM 05-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Temple View Post

...and I'm totally on board with Floki's defection being a long con on Horik. Nuff said.
Bubba score.

I'm a little puzzled at how the whole thing played out though. Floki had no reason to also con us, the viewer, by that I mean scenes that we saw that had no bearing on conning Horick such as the believable poisoning of Rollo. Toxic shrooms take days or even weeks to kill you IINM. Slow liver or kidney destruction. Would be the ideal way to kill someone already in dire straits, although Rollo would have time to tell someone. And the using of Rag's young son to deliver the other supposedly deadly shrooms and putting the fear of Odin into him about spilling the secret made no sense at the end.

Even though there was, of course, no Aella nor snakepit nearby I was still uncertain how it would all play out. I could see Floki or Siggy turning and was wondering if perhaps Rollo was indeed being written out. It was tense drama and I was thinking, 'oh, that's why Horrick is king - he's a back stabbing mo-fo.'

I suspect we'll learn next season that Rollo is so bad that he killed two attackers even with a bum bod. And I seriously doubt that Horrick's gay looking son was spared. Regarding Athleston, I think that was he who looked through the lit doorway at Ragnar and then moved away just before Rags dispatched Horrick.
cmac2012's Avatar cmac2012 04:45 PM 05-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by jabbathespud View Post

How could you not see that coming?
Unfortunately realities of the constraints of sceen time and money in a production like this, they sorta telegraphed Horrick's demise with the minimal character development he got. Never once saw his hall, rarely saw him with his men, and this episode the first with his wife and larger family. Oh well. Still pretty wild. You wonder how many seasons this will run. 10?

Hail King Ragnar.
zeus33's Avatar zeus33 04:58 PM 05-02-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post

Regarding Athleston, I think that was he who looked through the lit doorway at Ragnar and then moved away just before Rags dispatched Horrick.

Correct
Ron Temple's Avatar Ron Temple 07:11 PM 05-02-2014
Spare King Horik's son? Sure, though it looks like he does, what's Rags motivation.. Horik had just tried to wipe out Rags, Lags, Aslaug and all the big and little pigs and Rags turned the tables. Dark Age Poly Sci 101. The only reason I can see for letting the little sh*t live is for a big whooping sacrifice or to torture him for the location of Horik's hoard.

Hail Ragnar...so far the smartest Viking in the north.
cmac2012's Avatar cmac2012 07:42 PM 05-02-2014
The truly bloodthirsty route would have been to chop off Horik's hands and torture his daughters until HE gave details on various hoards. The son might well not know anything. And then sacrifice the lot. But oh well, they didn't ask me for advice.

But yeah, Rags is smart - that scene where he questioned Floki's trustworthiness in Horik's presence and then shot a dark glance at Horik would have helped sell the con.
JohnS-MI's Avatar JohnS-MI 05:00 AM 05-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmac2012 View Post

Bubba score.

I'm a little puzzled at how the whole thing played out though. Floki had no reason to also con us, the viewer, by that I mean scenes that we saw that had no bearing on conning Horick such as the believable poisoning of Rollo. Toxic shrooms take days or even weeks to kill you IINM. Slow liver or kidney destruction. Would be the ideal way to kill someone already in dire straits, although Rollo would have time to tell someone. And the using of Rag's young son to deliver the other supposedly deadly shrooms and putting the fear of Odin into him about spilling the secret made no sense at the end.

Even though there was, of course, no Aella nor snakepit nearby I was still uncertain how it would all play out. I could see Floki or Siggy turning and was wondering if perhaps Rollo was indeed being written out. It was tense drama and I was thinking, 'oh, that's why Horrick is king - he's a back stabbing mo-fo.'

I suspect we'll learn next season that Rollo is so bad that he killed two attackers even with a bum bod. And I seriously doubt that Horrick's gay looking son was spared. Regarding Athleston, I think that was he who looked through the lit doorway at Ragnar and then moved away just before Rags dispatched Horrick.

I thought Floki's long con was pretty well telegraphed. Several looks between he and Ragner followed by Floki going off to do something seemed fairly obvious. I was a lot less sure on Siggy. "Is she or isn't she," particularly since she had some legitimate grievances yet was also spared by Ragnar.
spike jones's Avatar spike jones 05:40 PM 05-03-2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterKnight View Post

There is a Maureen Ryan interview on Huffpost with creator Michael Hirst where he says all of King Horik's daughters were killed as well. The women in the scene that Bjorn let go were the family's slaves.

Here is the post, don't read it if your afraid of spoilers

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/02/vikings-finale-season-2_n_5241946.html
Ron Temple's Avatar Ron Temple 06:28 PM 05-03-2014
Leaving that little sh*t alive makes no sense. MH, you seriously damaged Rag's credibility just for the opportunity to twist the knife dramatically down the road. This is History not network TV. It was common practice to excise a dynasty when taking over...had been for thousands of years...because it was the smartest thing to do to insure your own families survival. Kill the girls and let the heir live? Unf*cking believeable.
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