Official AEREO Discussion Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by joblo View Post

Well, they have to argue according to the legal terrain in which they find themselves, and as it now stands, the transmit clause of the 1976 Copyright Act means one thing in the Ninth Circuit, and something else in the Second Circuit, because of the Cablevision ruling.

Basically, Cablevision said that Cablevision could move a home-based DVR into the cloud without incurring any additional liability or obligation to rights holders. And once you say that, it’s pretty hard to say that a company like TiVo, for instance, couldn’t move it’s DVR service into the cloud as well. And so far, the Second Circuit sees Aereo as essentially an OTA-only TiVo in the cloud, and thus non-infringing.
The problem is - and the network lawyers suck at their jobs if they can't prove it - the Cablevision decision was in favor of an entity that had the legal permission to retransmit the content in the first place. Aereo never sought such permission.

Further, as shown in the Megaupload case, the fact that stored media is only available to a single user does not release a paid service from the fact that they are storing copyrighted content that the user does not own on their servers. No mass sharing needs to occur. A single copy for a single person is enough for the storage service to infringe if they don't respond to DMCA takedown notice. Protections to services that have the potential for copyrighted content to be uploaded are only declared immune if they act on takedown notices immediately upon receiving them.
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

The problem is - and the network lawyers suck at their jobs if they can't prove it - the Cablevision decision was in favor of an entity that had the legal permission to retransmit the content in the first place.

Maybe one of the reasons they suck at it is because in Cablevision they argued the opposite.
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by joblo View Post

Maybe one of the reasons they suck at it is because in Cablevision they argued the opposite.
You misunderstand - I didn't say they had permission to do the remote DVR thing. I said they had permission to retransmit the programming. The courts merely extended that to having permission to provide a DVR function - and that the remote DVR was non-infringing.

Cablevision still had an agreement to retransmit the content, though. Aereo has no such agreement in place, so they're essentially trying to get the same rights granted to an entity that already had another existing provider agreement in place.
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

I said they had permission to retransmit the programming. The courts merely extended that to having permission to provide a DVR function

No, that's not what the courts did. In Cablevision, the nets argued that existing permissions didn't cover DVR transmissions from the cloud. The Second Circuit agreed, but said the DVR transmissions were private rather than public, and thus covered by fair use, so no permission was needed. And thus, Aereo needs no permission, either.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:45 PM
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Old 08-02-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DrDon View Post

I think it's because Hollywood typically waits until they perceive money's coming out of their pockets in huge quantities. They're all to happy to let station owners fight this battle. If Aereo wins and subsequently thrives, Hollywood will jump in and demand their cut.

Put another way, Hollywood will become interested as soon as vast numbers of Aereo subscribers start sharing program lists and passwords to the point nearly every show is viewable at any time by anyone and Hollywood isn't getting a dime. Then it's all over. wink.gif
Perhaps Hollywood want the laws to remain vague and ambiguous in order to threaten anyone they feel poses a threat to them and actually having court decisions which clarify the actual meaning of the existing laws would overall weaken their position in other respects? It would be a really bad thing to have very clearly defined laws which provide certainty to the parties on either side of the case in question!
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Old 08-03-2013, 08:10 PM
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Perhaps Hollywood want the laws to remain vague and ambiguous in order to threaten anyone they feel poses a threat to them and actually having court decisions which clarify the actual meaning of the existing laws would overall weaken their position in other respects? It would be a really bad thing to have very clearly defined laws which provide certainty to the parties on either side of the case in question!
The problem with clearly defining every single detail is you end up with a law that has 150,000 words and 50 pages - then it becomes overly burdomsome and overreaching.

Take for example, the law that basicly made it a federal offense to violate the terms of service of a web site - something anyone under 13 that lies about their age and gets a Facebook account has done. It's only following the outrage of a guy who committed suicide after the FBI went after him for what should have ended with the revokation of his user credentials by the site in question that they're now reviewing the law to make it more reasonable and less black and white.

The letter of the law says that 1 MPH over the speed limit is a crime. Most police officers won't write a ticket for it, assuming conditions are safe and you're not doing anything else dangerous in the process. A purely definitive law that leaves no room for the circumstances involved would compel the officer to write the ticket regardless.

When there's room for dispute, there's always the possibility of good sense to prevail. When their's no room for dispute, good sense can go out the window even when everyone knows it's wrong. Obviously, the reverse can be true, too, but there's no way to cover every eventuality. Laws written letter for letter simply can't keep up with changing times, technology and social values.

Honestly, it work both ways. Vague can allow for loopholes as easily as a clearly defined rule that leaves something out.
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

The problem with clearly defining every single detail is you end up with a law that has 150,000 words and 50 pages - then it becomes overly burdomsome and overreaching.

Take for example, the law that basicly made it a federal offense to violate the terms of service of a web site - something anyone under 13 that lies about their age and gets a Facebook account has done. It's only following the outrage of a guy who committed suicide after the FBI went after him for what should have ended with the revokation of his user credentials by the site in question that they're now reviewing the law to make it more reasonable and less black and white.

The letter of the law says that 1 MPH over the speed limit is a crime. Most police officers won't write a ticket for it, assuming conditions are safe and you're not doing anything else dangerous in the process. A purely definitive law that leaves no room for the circumstances involved would compel the officer to write the ticket regardless.

When there's room for dispute, there's always the possibility of good sense to prevail. When their's no room for dispute, good sense can go out the window even when everyone knows it's wrong. Obviously, the reverse can be true, too, but there's no way to cover every eventuality. Laws written letter for letter simply can't keep up with changing times, technology and social values.

Honestly, it work both ways. Vague can allow for loopholes as easily as a clearly defined rule that leaves something out.

Yes-but the problem is that the vague laws are always vague wirth respect to those areas where big business wants no teeth in the laws to the detriment of the consumer, not the other way around.
That likely has a lot to do with big business having an unbalanced influence on the legislation, and many times their law firms have actually written the legislation and given it to our politicians to pass as law of the land.

Anyhow-look at HDMI when it first came out-vague and without compliance testing and interoperability standards which we all have seen how many problems there are/were with different equipment refusing to handshake properly to the detriment of the consumer which paid good money for things which didnt work well together. Luckily things have improved ove the years because otherwise the HDMI adopters feared consumer backlash......

I am just sayin-give me clarity 99.99% of the time and everybody will be better off-clearly you have to have reasonable requirements, and that is the hard part, but if you are going to pass legislation you sure as hell be able/prepared to have the hard discussions about what "reasonable" means/is.
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Old 08-07-2013, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by qz3fwd View Post

Yes-but the problem is that the vague laws are always vague wirth respect to those areas where big business wants no teeth in the laws to the detriment of the consumer, not the other way around.
That likely has a lot to do with big business having an unbalanced influence on the legislation, and many times their law firms have actually written the legislation and given it to our politicians to pass as law of the land.

Anyhow-look at HDMI when it first came out-vague and without compliance testing and interoperability standards which we all have seen how many problems there are/were with different equipment refusing to handshake properly to the detriment of the consumer which paid good money for things which didnt work well together. Luckily things have improved ove the years because otherwise the HDMI adopters feared consumer backlash......

I am just sayin-give me clarity 99.99% of the time and everybody will be better off-clearly you have to have reasonable requirements, and that is the hard part, but if you are going to pass legislation you sure as hell be able/prepared to have the hard discussions about what "reasonable" means/is.
The problem is, as long as campaign contributions are essentially a free for all and you have a bunch of grey-hairs in congress that wouldn't even know how to turn a computer on, much less use on, those really specific laws are going to be structured to get the big corporations exactly what they want - mostly at our expense. When the law tries to cover everything, we usually end up with unreasonable laws that have zero tolerance outcomes attached to them.

The result is, I'd rather a little wiggle room that an up and coming circuit court judge who isn't in somebody's pocket can use to interpret a reasonable outcome.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:39 PM
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I was wondering if someone could answer this question about Aereo. I live about 35 miles from San Francisco in the Valley. I can't get any TV reception with rabbit ear or antennaes. I know in San Francisco you can use rabbit ears and get all the big networks for free.

Should Aereo become available in my area, do they only let you subscribe if you can ONLY receive the same signal in the same area they are in? In other words, would they let me subscribe even though I can't receive a OTA tv signal?

Thanks.
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Old 08-08-2013, 02:21 PM
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Thanks to unfavorable court rulings in that circuit, it's unlikely that Aereo will serve San Francisco anyway.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by yazyazoo View Post

Should Aereo become available in my area, do they only let you subscribe if you can ONLY receive the same signal in the same area they are in? In other words, would they let me subscribe even though I can't receive a OTA tv signal?

Service availability is based on your DMA, not OTA signal availability. I presume they verify your DMA by IP address, but I don’t know.

As previously noted, service will not be available in California, or anywhere else in the Ninth Circuit, unless and until the injunction in that circuit is overturned. Oral arguments are scheduled later this month, and I wouldn’t expect a ruling for months. (The Second Circuit took a little over four months, but whether or not that’s a good predictor for the Ninth, I don’t know.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by joblo View Post

Service availability is based on your DMA, not OTA signal availability. I presume they verify your DMA by IP address, but I don’t know.
The availability page on Aereo's site asks for your zip code.
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Old 08-10-2013, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joblo View Post

Service availability is based on your DMA, not OTA signal availability. I presume they verify your DMA by IP address, but I don’t know.
The availability page on Aereo's site asks for your zip code.

Well, sure, that's how they determine the DMA to tell potential subscribers they are eligible. The DBS companies have web pages that do that, too.

But when a subscriber uses the service, I presume there's some sort of verification by IP that the stream is within the DMA, because if all someone in California had to do to get New York TV was provide a New York zip code, I would think the broadcasters could get an injunction pretty easily.
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Old 08-10-2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by yazyazoo View Post

I was wondering if someone could answer this question about Aereo. I live about 35 miles from San Francisco in the Valley. I can't get any TV reception with rabbit ear or antennaes. I know in San Francisco you can use rabbit ears and get all the big networks for free.

Should Aereo become available in my area, do they only let you subscribe if you can ONLY receive the same signal in the same area they are in? In other words, would they let me subscribe even though I can't receive a OTA tv signal?

Thanks.

Which valley? Have you tried a rooftop antenna? I live about 50+ miles from Sutro/San Bruno and get everything perfectly with environmental conditions a non-issue.
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Old 09-24-2013, 04:27 PM
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I came to this thread hoping to find people's opinions on the quality and performance of the Aereo service. Can anyone direct me to a thread that is not an armchair lawyer circle-jibber?
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Old 09-24-2013, 05:46 PM
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I came to this thread hoping to find people's opinions on the quality and performance of the Aereo service. Can anyone direct me to a thread that is not an armchair lawyer circle-jibber?
You're in it. We've curtailed the armchair lawyer circle-jibber as you'll note by the timestamps. That's been a while ago.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:19 PM
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Meanwhile, Aereo were supposed to launch in Chicago a week ago, but they haven't yet, and there's no telling whether there's a legal component to the delay or not.
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Old 09-24-2013, 10:31 PM
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I came to this thread hoping to find people's opinions on the quality and performance of the Aereo service. Can anyone direct me to a thread that is not an armchair lawyer circle-jibber?
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You're in it. We've curtailed the armchair lawyer circle-jibber as you'll note by the timestamps. That's been a while ago.
I'm thinking it's a bit telling that the thread essentially died without all the legal talk.

There have been endless opportunities for those who use the service to discuss it and give their impressions, but that hasn't really happened.

I know several people in the markets that they are available in and none of them know anyone who uses Aereo. They do know several (including themselves) that use an OTA tuner combines with a sling box to do the same thing for free, though.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:27 AM
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I know several people in the markets that they are available in and none of them know anyone who uses Aereo. They do know several (including themselves) that use an OTA tuner combines with a sling box to do the same thing for free, though.

 

Don't they offer DVR abilities?

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Old 09-25-2013, 07:32 AM
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Don't they offer DVR abilities?
They do, but a Slingbox works from anywhere, not just your home city.

Walking the fine line between jaw-dropping and a plain ol' yawn.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:36 AM
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They do, but a Slingbox works from anywhere, not just your home city.

 

I understand but he was saying "free" as in OTA tuner and Slingbox is free... you also need a free DVR to do the same thing for free. :)

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Old 09-25-2013, 12:48 PM
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I have had the Aereo service for about six months in Manhattan. It is not perfect, but it serves my OTA stations problem, having cut my cable, in a city in which an antenna simply does not work. There are two ways to access it in my situation. You can use the private channel on Roku or you can access the aereo app on a computer or iOS device and Airplay it to your tv.

There can be some buffering at times, but it is generally reliable. For about $8 per month, they offer you 20 hours of DVR service in the cloud which is comparable to a Tivo. You can fast forward, fast back, erase or keep programs as you watch them or delete them. They have a good on-screen guide from which you can schedule shows to record, either one at a time or automatically for each new episode.

As I say, video playback is pretty good, although stereo only, no surround sound. There are occassional artifacts, but I suspect the culprit is dips in the wireless signal., affecting buffering. At its best, it is pretty good, priced reasonably and solves the problem nicely. An occasional glitch, but unless you are a perfectionist, it solves the antenna problem in troublesome areas quite nicely.
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Old 09-25-2013, 07:52 PM
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An occasional glitch, but unless you are a perfectionist, it solves the antenna problem in troublesome areas quite nicely.

That's good to hear. My current contract with my cable company ends in December and my family is leaning toward getting rid of TV services and trying out Aereo, if it has launched, as announced, in our market by then. I wish I could go the free route of OTA/Slingbox as has been mentioned more than once in this thread, but OTA isn't exactly the most feasible option where I live. CBS and PBS are available in HD (though because the PBS station has five subchannels in addition to the main HD channel, HD doesn't look so good), while ABC and Fox are viewable only on analog translators that may just get shut down sometime in the next two years rather get converted to digital. That's the entirety of OTA here, unless there's a DX event that brings in more distant stations.
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:07 PM
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I understand but he was saying "free" as in OTA tuner and Slingbox is free... you also need a free DVR to do the same thing for free. smile.gif
Sure, but I've got an old laptop with Windows 7 and a Happauge Tuner that can do that job for me. A lot of these people that are moving away from computers and toward tablets probably have everything they need except for a $35 USB tuner dongle.

I actually got all my TV that way when I was in the process of moving and didn't have my DirecTV hooked up in the new place for a week or so.
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:11 PM
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That's good to hear. My current contract with my cable company ends in December and my family is leaning toward getting rid of TV services and trying out Aereo, if it has launched, as announced, in our market by then. I wish I could go the free route of OTA/Slingbox as has been mentioned more than once in this thread, but OTA isn't exactly the most feasible option where I live. CBS and PBS are available in HD (though because the PBS station has five subchannels in addition to the main HD channel, HD doesn't look so good), while ABC and Fox are viewable only on analog translators that may just get shut down sometime in the next two years rather get converted to digital. That's the entirety of OTA here, unless there's a DX event that brings in more distant stations.
You do understand that Aereo will provide you with exactly the same as you would get if you did use an antenna. That's exactly how Aereo gets their signals.

So, that PBS station is going to probably look even worse after the compression and that ABC and Fox signal will still be analog - if you even get it at all. Aereo may not do analog stations if they only have digital tuners.

Aereo gets the signals the same way as people with antennas do. It's not going to get you anything other than what is available to your market. They don't get any special feeds that have better quality.

If you can pull in the stations yourself, you're going to get the same exact thing (with the addition of their DVR service).
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:43 PM
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You do understand that Aereo will provide you with exactly the same as you would get if you did use an antenna. That's exactly how Aereo gets their signals.

So, that PBS station is going to probably look even worse after the compression and that ABC and Fox signal will still be analog - if you even get it at all. Aereo may not do analog stations if they only have digital tuners.

Aereo gets the signals the same way as people with antennas do. It's not going to get you anything other than what is available to your market. They don't get any special feeds that have better quality.

If you can pull in the stations yourself, you're going to get the same exact thing (with the addition of their DVR service).

Are you sure you know how Aereo actually operates? I live in the Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN market, which is one of the markets Aereo has announced plans to operate in by "the end of this year." However, my OTA reception is limited to what I described because I live about 100 miles away from the center of the market where all of the primary stations are broadcast from. I have to therefore rely on a satellite station (the CBS and PBS stations) or translators (the ABC and Fox stations) that serve to extend the reach of the primary stations. All of the other stations that are technically a part of my market I am unable to view OTA because neither the stations themselves nor local organizations nor local governments have seen the need to set up satellite stations or translators to extend their viewing range to my area.

Aereo provides an ability to overcome this problem, because, assuming the setup in the Minneapolis-St. Paul market is the same as in the markets in which Aereo already operates, the "rental antenna" that it provides will be located within the Minneapolis-St. Paul area and will be able to pick up all of the stations available there. Basically, in all the markets Aereo is in, it extends the reach of the stations to all portions of the market those stations serve, regardless of if the OTA signals of the stations actually reach all portions of the market.

So, no, in my case, Aereo would not provide me with exactly the same as I would get with an antenna. It would provide me with more.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:08 PM
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A lot of these people that are moving away from computers and toward tablets probably have everything they need except for a $35 USB tuner dongle.


I presume you are referencing one tuner... do they restrict you to such?

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Old 09-25-2013, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by agus0103 View Post

Are you sure you know how Aereo actually operates? I live in the Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN market, which is one of the markets Aereo has announced plans to operate in by "the end of this year." However, my OTA reception is limited to what I described because I live about 100 miles away from the center of the market where all of the primary stations are broadcast from. I have to therefore rely on a satellite station (the CBS and PBS stations) or translators (the ABC and Fox stations) that serve to extend the reach of the primary stations. All of the other stations that are technically a part of my market I am unable to view OTA because neither the stations themselves nor local organizations nor local governments have seen the need to set up satellite stations or translators to extend their viewing range to my area.

Aereo provides an ability to overcome this problem, because, assuming the setup in the Minneapolis-St. Paul market is the same as in the markets in which Aereo already operates, the "rental antenna" that it provides will be located within the Minneapolis-St. Paul area and will be able to pick up all of the stations available there. Basically, in all the markets Aereo is in, it extends the reach of the stations to all portions of the market those stations serve, regardless of if the OTA signals of the stations actually reach all portions of the market.

So, no, in my case, Aereo would not provide me with exactly the same as I would get with an antenna. It would provide me with more.
You didn't exactly make your situation clear in your previous post. You referenced a PBS station with multiple subchannels and two analog stations with no indication that wasn't your actual market. You didn't mention they were substations or translators. You called them PBS, ABC and Fox, not satellites or translators of those stations.

I know how Aereo works, but please understand that I can't read your mind. Unless you provide details, one can only go by the information you provide.

Technically, you should get the real stations in that market as long as you actually do qualify as being part of the market. That's something you'll likely find out upon inquiring about it. Markets for local stations are often not that simple.
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Old 09-25-2013, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post


I presume you are referencing one tuner... do they restrict you to such?
I don't know how many tuners Aereo provides for the monthly fee, so I can't compare. I'm not sure if you can have multiple tuners in Windows Media Center 7. I think people have done it, but I haven't tried it myself.
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