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post #631 of 730 Old 06-16-2014, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rebkell View Post
Didn't Kellogg's grandmother or some relative directly in the bloodline get killed in the first season and he was still there?
Correct. In "our timeline", he was and is living, breathing flesh, the fact that he may never have been born in the future is irrelevant as he was actually born in some continuum in the future, it did exist at some point even though it now does not.

If, in order for the technology to function it doesn't rely on something only found in the future where it was created, then it doesn't matter if that future never existed in the first place. In other words, if it doesn't need to "call home" in order to function, then it really doesn't matter when or where it was made, it just works now in the present. If you took your cellphone back to 1776 the calender would still work, music and pictures would be available on it, if the mapping app had the data stored on the phone it would work as well.

That's the way I see it anyway.
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post #632 of 730 Old 06-16-2014, 07:12 PM
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Yes, and at the time, people were happy that he didn't just disappear as a result of his ancestor's death. That discussion is probably in the Showcase thread, though.
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post #633 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
If you took your cellphone back to 1776 the calender would still work, music and pictures would be available on it, if the mapping app had the data stored on the phone it would work as well.
Yes and no. You'd still have the maps, but you wouldn't be able to place yourself in them nor map any routes to any destination without the GPS satellites.

The whole time-travel paradox is fun for speculation and has served as fodder for much literary and celluloid fantasy, but that's all it's ever going to be. As others have stated, as long as the work creates a framework for time-travel and sticks to its own rules, that's all we really need. 'Fringe' did that really well, I thought.

Can anybody tell me what the content was of that final bit of John Doe's exposition my DVR missed so I don't have to go through the whole hour On Demand? Help a brother out?
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post #634 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post
Can anybody tell me what the content was of that final bit of John Doe's exposition my DVR missed so I don't have to go through the whole hour On Demand? Help a brother out?
He said that Kellog was one of several clan leaders from the broken future who sent him back on a mission to change the future (obviously to one that favors Kellog).

"If we ain't outta here in ten minutes, we won't need no rocket to fly through space."
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post #635 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by replayrob View Post
He said that Kellog was one of several clan leaders from the broken future who sent him back on a mission to change the future (obviously to one that favors Kellog).
But not this Kellog. He came through with the rest of the Liber8'ers didn't he?
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post #636 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post
Yes and no. You'd still have the maps, but you wouldn't be able to place yourself in them nor map any routes to any destination without the GPS satellites.
Of course, they would work just like the old style paper maps, just much more handy. The point really being, the technology that provides and displays the maps would work still work.

And yes, as long as the show follows its own "rules" then I'm good with the "science".
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post #637 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 09:26 AM
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But not this Kellog. He came through with the rest of the Liber8'ers didn't he?
Yes, and then he decided he'd rather become rich than ideological.
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post #638 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
Yes, and then he decided he'd rather become rich than ideological.
I think it's the same kellog we know- but he's older at that future date when he sends his man back to re-write history.

My take on it (from what John Doe said) is that liber8 was successful in preventing the Corporate Congress from forming- but at a terrible cost to humanity. So in that broken future older Kellog sent his soldier back to stop Liber8 and further his own agenda.

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post #639 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by replayrob View Post
I think it's the same kellog we know- but he's older at that future date when he sends his man back to re-write history.
I thought John Doe was sent back in 2037, decades before "our" Kellog gets sent back with the Liber8'ers. At that time (2077?), he was the same age he is now in the show.
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post #640 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post
I thought John Doe was sent back in 2037, decades before "our" Kellog gets sent back with the Liber8'ers. At that time (2077?), he was the same age he is now in the show.
"Our" kellog was say 40yo in 2077 and got sent back to 2012. So in our timeline in 2037 he's now 65yo and that's when he sends John Doe back to 2014 to do his bidding to change the future.

Of course I could be completely wrong too

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post #641 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by replayrob View Post
"Our" kellog was say 40yo in 2077 and got sent back to 2012. So in our timeline in 2037 he's now 65yo and that's when he sends John Doe back to 2014 to do his bidding to change the future.

Of course I could be completely wrong too
Ah, the old recursive loop resulting in a stack overflow. LOL
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post #642 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 11:27 AM
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This last episode's ending was a bit lackluster for me ....
They all simply suddenly have a couple paragraph, quick explination/speech about how "nothing matters" , all drop their wepons & ideals, and walk away .... really?
Reminds me of Shater in Star Trek TOS, end of episode :

Kirk ( To evil robot): " You say we humans & all we do are all inferior, & you must kill us, but we created you, so therefore You Must be inferior as well, & You must therefore kill yourself instead."
Evil Robot: " " Yea, I guess you are right, makes sense, I will now self destruct" ... (boom)
Kirk: Sulu, Star Base 12, Warp factor 5" .... (Fade to Black)

Last edited by MeatChicken; 06-17-2014 at 01:10 PM.
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post #643 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by rebkell View Post
Ah, the old recursive loop resulting in a stack overflow. LOL
... and a mild headache

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post #644 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post
As others have stated, as long as the work creates a framework for time-travel and sticks to its own rules, that's all we really need. 'Fringe' did that really well, I thought.
Fringe's solution to the problem was to avoid explaining how things worked at all and to use its time travel and multiverse premises to retcon unpopular storylines.


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Originally Posted by replayrob View Post
"Our" kellog was say 40yo in 2077 and got sent back to 2012. So in our timeline in 2037 he's now 65yo and that's when he sends John Doe back to 2014 to do his bidding to change the future.

Of course I could be completely wrong too
That's exactly how I see it, too.
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post #645 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 03:28 PM
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I'm really confused now on a few points.

  1. In the episode John Doe Houseguest was introduced, I seem to recall a "flash forward" of what looked like Kiera infiltrating and taking down some underground clinic where John Doe was removing people's corporate government ID implants. But now he's only from 2039, not 2077. Are we to understand then that he also was sent to the future by Kellog? But then wouldn't Kiera's "future" in 2077 be substantially altered in the new (current) timeline, i.e., no corporate government, according to what we now know is the state of affairs in 2039?
  2. I also don't understand how Curtis the freelancer is alive, unless we are to assume that John Doe went back further in time to first save him before working with him. But then he wasn't working with him; he was working with Kellog.
  3. Lastly, how did Kiera know to go to the barn to find John Doe when he was accessing his childhood hiding spot? Did she get his real name somehow and I just don't remember?
I almost feel like I missed an entire episode prior to this one.
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post #646 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Zookster View Post
In the episode John Doe Houseguest was introduced, I seem to recall a "flash forward" of what looked like Kiera infiltrating and taking down some underground clinic where John Doe was removing people's corporate government ID implants. But now he's only from 2039, not 2077.
I think that was another actor and character. If Ryan Robbins happened to play both roles, I think it's just a coincidence due to Canadian shows having a small pool of actors to tap.

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I also don't understand how Curtis the freelancer is alive, unless we are to assume that John Doe went back further in time to first save him before working with him.
IIRC, Curtis died in the original timeline, but when Alec and Kiera went back in time, Curtis is now alive again. Kiera then got him arrested and thrown into the Freelancer prison (along with Alec) on the charge of killing the other Kiera, but Curtis escaped.

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Lastly, how did Kiera know to go to the barn to find John Doe when he was accessing his childhood hiding spot?
I vaguely remember her uttering some generic explanation regarding how she did it, but I don't remember what it was.
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post #647 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Zookster View Post
I'm really confused now on a few points.


In the episode John Doe Houseguest was introduced, I seem to recall a "flash forward" of what looked like Kiera infiltrating and taking down some underground clinic where John Doe was removing people's corporate government ID implants. But now he's only from 2039, not 2077. Are we to understand then that he also was sent to the future by Kellog? But then wouldn't Kiera's "future" in 2077 be substantially altered in the new (current) timeline, i.e., no corporate government, according to what we now know is the state of affairs in 2039?
You mean one of the people behind the window operating the machine? I'd have to go back to be sure, but I'm pretty certain it was not him. There was a male and a female as I recall and the male was not John Doe.
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post #648 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 06:42 PM
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Not john doe
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post #649 of 730 Old 06-17-2014, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MeatChicken View Post
This last episode's ending was a bit lackluster for me ....
They all simply suddenly have a couple paragraph, quick explination/speech about how "nothing matters" , all drop their wepons & ideals, and walk away .... really?
Precisely my point. Poorly done by the writers having Liber8 just give up so quickly. Not that I am a fan of the Liber8 murderers.
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post #650 of 730 Old 06-18-2014, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post
IIRC, Curtis died in the original timeline, but when Alec and Kiera went back in time, Curtis is now alive again. Kiera then got him arrested and thrown into the Freelancer prison (along with Alec) on the charge of killing the other Kiera, but Curtis escaped.
Curtis died in the original timeline, but the Freelancers stole his body and appeared to have the technology with them to bring him back to life.

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I vaguely remember her uttering some generic explanation regarding how she did it, but I don't remember what it was.
He had told her his real name and she looked that up, saw that he was alive in this time and figured he might head to his house.
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post #651 of 730 Old 06-18-2014, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nottenst View Post
Curtis died in the original timeline, but the Freelancers stole his body and appeared to have the technology with them to bring him back to life.

He had told her his real name and she looked that up, saw that he was alive in this time and figured he might head to his house.
I had the distinct thought that the boy was himself. He said something about a particular person who was bullying the boy and that the boy should haul off and punch him.

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post #652 of 730 Old 06-18-2014, 08:32 AM
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I had the distinct thought that the boy was himself. He said something about a particular person who was bullying the boy and that the boy should haul off and punch him.
Right, that was his younger self. He used his old hiding place and was amused to see some items that his younger self had hidden there as well.
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post #653 of 730 Old 06-18-2014, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post
I think that was another actor and character. If Ryan Robbins happened to play both roles, I think it's just a coincidence due to Canadian shows having a small pool of actors to tap.


IIRC, Curtis died in the original timeline, but when Alec and Kiera went back in time, Curtis is now alive again. Kiera then got him arrested and thrown into the Freelancer prison (along with Alec) on the charge of killing the other Kiera, but Curtis escaped.


I vaguely remember her uttering some generic explanation regarding how she did it, but I don't remember what it was.
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You mean one of the people behind the window operating the machine? I'd have to go back to be sure, but I'm pretty certain it was not him. There was a male and a female as I recall and the male was not John Doe.
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Not john doe
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Originally Posted by nottenst View Post
Curtis died in the original timeline, but the Freelancers stole his body and appeared to have the technology with them to bring him back to life.

He had told her his real name and she looked that up, saw that he was alive in this time and figured he might head to his house.
Thanks, everyone, for answering my questions. I can't believe I thought John Doe was the guy in the underground clinic. I just loaded up the start of that episode via On Demand and sure enough, didn't look anything like him--except for the fact he had a beard. lol

I don't know that I ever will, but if any show required going back to rewatch episodes, it's this one.
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post #654 of 730 Old 06-18-2014, 02:14 PM
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Curtis died in the original timeline, but the Freelancers stole his body and appeared to have the technology with them to bring him back to life.
Yep, I was totally wrong on this count. Curtis died way before the week that Alec and Kiera repeated.
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post #655 of 730 Old 06-18-2014, 04:07 PM
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I think this thread is giving me a headache.
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post #656 of 730 Old 06-19-2014, 09:14 AM
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I think this thread is giving me a headache.
You're not alone
Time Travel Story Syndrome
Side effects of confusion, headaches and possibly nausea
Yet, I'm addicted
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post #657 of 730 Old 06-20-2014, 08:21 PM
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Oh NOOOO, we need a reset .... Please let this show be renewed and let them finish the story. Not sure I'm ready for 7 or 8 years worth, but I hope they at least come to some kind of an understanding on the endpoint and not just decide to drop it.

Spoiler!
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post #658 of 730 Old 06-21-2014, 12:22 AM
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If I'm not mistaken, the picture Kellog showed evil Alec was a continuity error: old Alec was never in the front seat of the car with Kiera. Kiera and Brad were in the front while Alec was in the back after their escape, and then Kiera got out, leaving only Brad and Alec in the car. That picture could never have been taken, but oh well. Now evil Alec is going to ruin old Alec's and Emily's escape plans. Those two just can't catch a break.
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post #659 of 730 Old 06-21-2014, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post
If I'm not mistaken, the picture Kellog showed evil Alec was a continuity error: old Alec was never in the front seat of the car with Kiera. Kiera and Brad were in the front while Alec was in the back after their escape, and then Kiera got out, leaving only Brad and Alec in the car. That picture could never have been taken, but oh well. Now evil Alec is going to ruin old Alec's and Emily's escape plans. Those two just can't catch a break.
Thanks ... I thought I had a senior moment there. OTOH, there seemed to be a few plot points that might have gotten left out. Fill in the blanks. Then again wasn't the picture a truck (not a car.) I'm confused.
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post #660 of 730 Old 06-21-2014, 10:46 AM
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Watching this episode I had the sense I had missed a previous one, or maybe I just wasn't paying attention. It did seem as if there were some plot jumps with the connective story tissue having been left out.

Has the "Traveler" been mentioned before?
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