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post #91 of 562 Old 07-16-2013, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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The disability of a character doesn't make a difference for me. I only look at the character and how interesting they are and what they can bring to the show. Sonya and Marco have a lot of similarities between Brennan and Booth on Bones, but over the years Brennan's character and writing on Bones hasn't really evolved that much and it's not interesting now. My acceptance of a character is directly related to how well they are written. If this show lasts for three seasons and Sonya is still being written exactly as she is in the pilot then my attention and empathy will probably wane.

Which is in direct contrast to Tony Shalhoub on Monk. Over the years the show destroyed my sympathy for that character by retconning the show and changing so much that it made Monk so mentally disabled that the entire premise of the show became completely implausible. They devolved the character for the sake of laughs.


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post #92 of 562 Old 07-16-2013, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

The disability of a character doesn't make a difference for me. I only look at the character and how interesting they are and what they can bring to the show. Sonya and Marco have a lot of similarities between Brennan and Booth on Bones, but over the years Brennan's character and writing on Bones hasn't really evolved that much and it's not interesting now. My acceptance of a character is directly related to how well they are written. If this show lasts for three seasons and Sonya is still being written exactly as she is in the pilot then my attention and empathy will probably wane.

Which is in direct contrast to Tony Shalhoub on Monk. Over the years the show destroyed my sympathy for that character by retconning the show and changing so much that it made Monk so mentally disabled that the entire premise of the show became completely implausible. They devolved the character for the sake of laughs.
I agree, which is why I'm looking forward to these next couple of episodes as the consultant who specializes in the affliction didn't have any input until then, her behavior in the first episode hopefully being a "one-off".
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post #93 of 562 Old 07-17-2013, 09:38 AM
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I don't view myself as the most empathetic person on earth or even close to it, but quirky, often clueless, Sonya has captured my heart.

Agreed. I don't find her annoying at all, but it might be because she's not too far off from how I am. biggrin.gif

I am pretty much a stickler for sticking to "protocol" in most situations with little flexibility. I also usually don't understand others all too well, but that's not my fault. wink.gif
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post #94 of 562 Old 07-17-2013, 10:09 AM
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Perhaps the discomfort people have with the Sonia character lies not in how the actress is portraying a person afflicted with Asberger's but that she is in the position she is cast within the El Paso police force. Certainly the retiring lieutenant(?) has been an important supporter knowing her limitations and tendencies. Knowing how she got to where she is would maybe ease the character's acceptance factor.
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post #95 of 562 Old 07-17-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ridgefamus View Post

Perhaps the discomfort people have with the Sonia character lies not in how the actress is portraying a person afflicted with Asberger's but that she is in the position she is cast within the El Paso police force. Certainly the retiring lieutenant(?) has been an important supporter knowing her limitations and tendencies. Knowing how she got to where she is would maybe ease the character's acceptance factor.

My assumption is that she's really good with details and sees things that others don't, thereby making her a strong asset for complex investigations. Maybe she got into the force because the superiors saw her worth at the outset.
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post #96 of 562 Old 07-17-2013, 04:56 PM
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post #97 of 562 Old 07-17-2013, 08:14 PM
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Really cool.

Sonya's horniness was unique tongue.gif

Steven is a bizarre character. Wonder where he works, some type of rehabilitation center or care center I guess. Maybe hospital?
The guy hunting Steven is creepy!

Can't wait to read all the comments tomorrow.
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post #98 of 562 Old 07-17-2013, 08:30 PM
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Sonya's horniness was unique tongue.gif

She handled her urge in the same fashion that many normal men would like to. biggrin.gif


I'm really interested in where the story is headed with the widow. She has herself in a potentially dangerous situation and seems well-intentioned, but I have a feeling that the writers are building up to a grim back-story for her.
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post #99 of 562 Old 07-17-2013, 08:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I can tell the behavioral advisor had input on this episode. It may have given Sonya a more "realistic" persona but in doing so I also found her character a lot less interesting this week. She is almost too conventional now and lacks the dynamic quirks of the pilot. Outside of her overly apologetic scene with the captain her character seemed like any other straight-edge detective now. Questions are without urgency and her mannerisms far less confrontational. Even her one night stand wasn't that unusual since you see lots of power women on screen who just want sex.

And Lyle Lovett. I don't know what possessed them to hire Lovett. He was never a good actor and here he is more wooden than the door to the secret tunnel.

So, not a fan of the majority of this episode.


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post #100 of 562 Old 07-17-2013, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

I can tell the behavioral advisor had input on this episode. It may have given Sonya a more "realistic" persona but in doing so I also found her character a lot less interesting this week. She is almost too conventional now and lacks the dynamic quirks of the pilot. Outside of her overly apologetic scene with the captain her character seemed like any other straight-edge detective now. Questions are without urgency and her mannerisms far less confrontational. Even her one night stand wasn't that unusual since you see lots of power women on screen who just want sex.

And Lyle Lovett. I don't know what possessed them to hire Lovett. He was never a good actor and here he is more wooden than the door to the secret tunnel.

So, not a fan of the majority of this episode.

Agree almost 100% about Sonya in this week's episode. Her character seemed very stiff and wooden this week. In the original Swedish/Danish version, Saga(Sonya) never failed to have you shaking your head and wondering what she would do or how she would react next.
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post #101 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

I can tell the behavioral advisor had input on this episode. It may have given Sonya a more "realistic" persona but in doing so I also found her character a lot less interesting this week. She is almost too conventional now and lacks the dynamic quirks of the pilot. Outside of her overly apologetic scene with the captain her character seemed like any other straight-edge detective now. Questions are without urgency and her mannerisms far less confrontational. Even her one night stand wasn't that unusual since you see lots of power women on screen who just want sex.

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Agree almost 100% about Sonya in this week's episode. Her character seemed very stiff and wooden this week. In the original Swedish/Danish version, Saga(Sonya) never failed to have you shaking your head and wondering what she would do or how she would react next.
I'm not all that happy either. They seem to have her playing the role half in and half out. In the original she would never have apologized, it's simply not the way her brain works works, she would have looked at you in a somewhat puzzled manner and then quickly moved on. This Sonya is being played as just the average individual with some emotional issues. She was actually better in the pilot.

I'm still in it as the story is compelling enough so far, and there's several other interesting characters but I'm disappointed in the Sonya character, something I was concerned about from the beginning. I can't tell if it's the writing, the consultant's guidance or Kruger herself but she's just not that interesting of a character. She doesn't annoy me, she is just not interesting.


The Steven character appears to work at a female half-way house.
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post #102 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 07:20 AM
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She handled her urge in the same fashion that many normal men would like to. biggrin.gif


I'm really interested in where the story is headed with the widow. She has herself in a potentially dangerous situation and seems well-intentioned, but I have a feeling that the writers are building up to a grim back-story for her.

I agree. Shouldn't mess around with drug lords or people making millions on smugglings eek.gif
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Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

I can tell the behavioral advisor had input on this episode. It may have given Sonya a more "realistic" persona but in doing so I also found her character a lot less interesting this week. She is almost too conventional now and lacks the dynamic quirks of the pilot. Outside of her overly apologetic scene with the captain her character seemed like any other straight-edge detective now. Questions are without urgency and her mannerisms far less confrontational. Even her one night stand wasn't that unusual since you see lots of power women on screen who just want sex.

And Lyle Lovett. I don't know what possessed them to hire Lovett. He was never a good actor and here he is more wooden than the door to the secret tunnel.


So, not a fan of the majority of this episode.

That's who that was! I thought I recognized him.
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post #103 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 08:27 AM
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Certainly for me, wasn't as good as the pilot. They toned down Sonya quite a bit. Interesting bar [pick-up] scene, reminded me a little of the pilot from Homeland with Claire Danes. Agree on Lovett, his is horrible so far. Good to see Annabeth Gish, she still looks great, just like she did on Brotherhood. I also like the "Cub" reporter from Friday Night Lights, she always does a good job and is pretty cute. Good show, I'm tuning in to see what happens. Didn't see any of the other FX shows, SOA or Justified get any major Emmy nominations today. Sad.
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post #104 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 10:13 AM
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I've not seen the original so I've got no preconceived notions about Sonja. But I found her more believable in this episode. In the pilot I kept wondering how someone so lacking in social skills ever rose to detective. It seemed a stretch even if she was being protected by her boss. This episode at least showed how she can function in the world despite being strange. But I get the negative reaction-it reminds me of how I felt about the changes in Lisbeth Salander in the Swedish and American versions of GWTDT...smile.gif Anyways, for me, the most absorbing part of the show is the Mexican side so I'm more focused on Bichir. So far he's been great, and I'm really enjoying the show.

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post #105 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 10:21 AM
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I've not seen the original so I've got no preconceived notions about Sonja. But I found her more believable in this episode. In the pilot I kept wondering how someone so lacking in social skills ever rose to detective. It seemed a stretch even if she was being protected by her boss. This episode at least showed how she can function in the world despite being strange. But I get the negative reaction-it reminds me of how I felt about the changes in Lisbeth Salander in the Swedish and American versions of GWTDT...:) Anyways, for me, the most absorbing part of the show is the Mexican side so I'm more focused on Bichir. So far he's been great, and I'm really enjoying the show.

You loved the original, correct? I thought the American version was pretty good, but I thought the Swedish version was much more suspenseful and better overall. Of course I saw the Swedish version first. I have a buddy that thinks the US version was better, but he watched the US version first. I wonder if I would feel the same way if I had seen them reversed, like the Bridge(so far anyway) and 'The Killing' over on AMC, the foreign versions were by far the best, but I saw them first.
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post #106 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 11:04 AM
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I've not seen the original so I've got no preconceived notions about Sonja. But I found her more believable in this episode. In the pilot I kept wondering how someone so lacking in social skills ever rose to detective. It seemed a stretch even if she was being protected by her boss. This episode at least showed how she can function in the world despite being strange.
That's why I'm disappointed in this version of the character, in the original the character was even more odd yet it never really hampered her performance and she was never really counseled to try and show empathy. Again, I don't know whether it's the writing, the advisor or the actress herself. At this point it may even be that the showrunners have decided to change the character itself into something different from the original, if that's the case then I think it's a major mistake as Sonya(Saga) was a huge factor in making the show so compelling. It could even be some of the old American TV audience dumbing down action happening.

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But I get the negative reaction-it reminds me of how I felt about the changes in Lisbeth Salander in the Swedish and American versions of GWTDT...smile.gif Anyways, for me, the most absorbing part of the show is the Mexican side so I'm more focused on Bichir. So far he's been great, and I'm really enjoying the show.
Same here and it's what will keep me watching until the end, far more interesting characters and the story(s) themselves than to get hung up on the sub-par(so far) performance of the female lead. It's interesting to note that Bichir said he never watched the original, yet his portrayal so far is much closer to the original than Kruger's, go figure.
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post #107 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 11:08 AM
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Certainly for me, wasn't as good as the pilot. They toned down Sonya quite a bit. Interesting bar [pick-up] scene, reminded me a little of the pilot from Homeland with Claire Danes. Agree on Lovett, his is horrible so far. Good to see Annabeth Gish, she still looks great, just like she did on Brotherhood. I also like the "Cub" reporter from Friday Night Lights, she always does a good job and is pretty cute. Good show, I'm tuning in to see what happens. Didn't see any of the other FX shows, SOA or Justified get any major Emmy nominations today. Sad.

Emily Rios also plays Jesse's girlfriend on Breaking Bad.

Yes, the Emmy noms definitely had some disappointments in it, no mention of Orphan Black or Tatiana Maslany either which is a crime in my opinion.
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post #108 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 12:25 PM
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The Bichir interview posted above is one of the most informative things I've read for how Hollywood thinks in a certain narrow area. If you ever wondered why cars blow up when going over cliffs, even before hitting anything, he has your answer.

So, my guess, after seeing the current episode, is that Sonya will be a little quirky, with an asperger moment or two each episode to remind us (like the crappy buses to remind us it's Mexico) and on to the murder plot.

Okay with me as I didn't see the original and have nothing invested in her, I just want a good show in general.

Sometimes sticking with the original concept can kill you, like with Bosom Buddies, where the network just couldn't see they had a brilliant comedy hiding behind the dresses (with Hanks, Scolari and Taylor) and insisted on keeping to the original lame idea and startlingly inept supporting cast.

Not that it matters, but the only official house of ill repute I've ever visited was in Juarez. Shorty's cab had a run from the truck stop to the cat house. Ahh, those innocent times of yesteryear.

Eve: I thought I was through getting involved with men who were trouble. Falling in love on a look. I can't look at you.

Mickey: You have perfection about you. Your eyes have music. Your heart's the best part of your body. And when you move, every man, woman and child is forced to watch.
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post #109 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 01:14 PM
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The Bichir interview posted above is one of the most informative things I've read for how Hollywood thinks in a certain narrow area.

It's certainly no secret that film and television producers love to stick to established stereotypes. The funny thing is that a more accurate portrayal of Juárez would in all logic do nothing to hurt ratings. It would only make the show more compelling and the overall plot no less foreboding.
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post #110 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 01:42 PM
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Thanx for that, I forgot about Emily Rios with Jessie on BB, and also Men of a certain age. Great interview with Bichir, and now I remember him from Weeds...
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post #111 of 562 Old 07-18-2013, 02:13 PM
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Thanx for that, I forgot about Emily Rios with Jessie on BB, and also Men of a certain age. Great interview with Bichir, and now I remember him from Weeds...

That's where I instantly recognized him from. More of his voice though.
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post #112 of 562 Old 07-19-2013, 10:58 AM
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And Lyle Lovett. I don't know what possessed them to hire Lovett. He was never a good actor and here he is more wooden than the door to the secret tunnel.

So, not a fan of the majority of this episode.

Agree almost 100% about Sonya in this week's episode. Her character seemed very stiff and wooden this week.

You guys are a tough crowd. She's too stiff, she's not stiff enough. Geez.

And re Lyle, I agree about his acting skills. But to me he brings kind of a Twin Peaks, Blue Velvet feel to his character.

Also, I'm not convinced trailer guy is the killer. Although they show him put that woman in his trunk, they never showed her body. Whatever he burned, you can't cremate a body with a can of lighter fluid.
And whenever they clearly show the killer, it's only his hands or feet they show.

I'm suspicious of the patrol man. He found the judges lower body. He was there when they found the first bead. And he has a hard on for getting involved in the case. Plus he has the freedom to roam all over and access police communications.

I think the No Country For Old Men weirdo is trunk girls pimp. He referred to her as an object, like property.


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post #113 of 562 Old 07-19-2013, 11:31 AM
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You guys are a tough crowd. She's too stiff, she's not stiff enough. Geez.

How about, her character is dull. I just find her whole role pretty much boring so far, the part that bothered me was that it was much more boring the 2nd week vs the first week, and the 2nd episode was after she started working with the experts. Maybe I'm expecting too much of a stereotypical character, I expected more of a Claire Danes type Temple Grandin attitude and or personality out of Sonya.
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post #114 of 562 Old 07-19-2013, 12:04 PM
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I do like her version of a one night stand. smile.gif
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post #115 of 562 Old 07-19-2013, 12:19 PM
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I do like her version of a one night stand. smile.gif

LOL. She was like the stereotypical man, turning over and going to sleep. Was funny when she looked at the dead body after sex too. What a weird time to be looking at that!
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post #116 of 562 Old 07-19-2013, 12:21 PM
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You guys are a tough crowd. She's too stiff, she's not stiff enough. Geez.

And re Lyle, I agree about his acting skills. But to me he brings kind of a Twin Peaks, Blue Velvet feel to his character.

I agree. I think Sonya has been depicted almost perfectly. I loved the almost casual way she picked up the guy in the bar after having decided at home that she was horny. I was pleased to see that the guy she picked up seemed to be a decent fellow. Diane Kruger has been wonderful as Sonya, I think.

I loved Lyle Lovett as the slightly sleazy Texas lawyer. Who better to play such a part than than an old time Texas country music singer?

Bottom line, I'm still loving the show.
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post #117 of 562 Old 07-19-2013, 10:15 PM
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I agree. I think Sonya has been depicted almost perfectly. I loved the almost casual way she picked up the guy in the bar after having decided at home that she was horny. I was pleased to see that the guy she picked up seemed to be a decent fellow. Diane Kruger has been wonderful as Sonya, I think.

I loved Lyle Lovett as the slightly sleazy Texas lawyer. Who better to play such a part than than an old time Texas country music singer?

Bottom line, I'm still loving the show.

Agreed except for my preference for the edgier Sonya of the first episode. Watching Kruger"s character I can't help but think of the portrayal by Christian Clemenson of the Asberger-afflicted attorney Jerry Espenson http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0166061/ in Boston Legal. How many other Asberger portrayals have there been in TV-land for those of us who have no personal experience with the condition to judge whether or not the actor carries it off correctly? There probably are a multitude of ways to present an Asberger disorder. I think the context within which the character is placed is most meaningful. I thought that in the pilot the way Sonja's character was portrayed made it questionable as to the believability of her placement as a detective in the El Paso police. Maybe her more nuanced persona (after getting laid) will her fit her more appropriately in her role.

Jerry Espenson, OTH, was quite believable as a member of the Boston Legal team given how the writers allowed him to make contributions to cases, wooden cigarette and quirks aside. It appears Sonja has excellent value to her team given her strictly logical approach to all things. My only problem is how one with the extreme lack of social skills depicted in the pilot would allow her to progress to the rank she has. Yes, she has a protector who probably helped along the way but still ....

Yes, love the show for all its elements and possibilities.
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post #118 of 562 Old 07-20-2013, 12:42 AM
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I thought that in the pilot the way Sonja's character was portrayed made it questionable as to the believability of her placement as a detective in the El Paso police.

I can't be that critical about it. Especially if I am to believe the killer was able to shut off the electricity to both sides of the border, bypassing any backups US Homeland Security probably have in place, by a timer no less.

If you've driven across the border you'd also know that it's perpetually bumper to bumper since 9/11, so no chance for anyone to lay down a body in the middle of a lane. Then there's the headlights from all the cars that would keep it from being pitch dark. I could go on, but I really enjoy this show.

I think it's a good story.

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post #119 of 562 Old 07-20-2013, 05:02 AM
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I just watched the first two shows and I'm not sure about the series yet. Forgive my rant but I am bothered.

Right now there are two many loose plot threads that will have to come together and it is still not certain how well they will fit. The main thing is that you have two police detectives from different countries with their own limitations. Marco with his corrupt and apathetic country (is this overplayed?) who is the character we care about? because he is a nice guy? Sonya who appears to have asperger's and it completely socially awkward? A killer who is sending social and political messages? A so-far unconnected widow whose late husband declared he didn't lover her and has hidden debts to hidden people, a locked cell phone (who we got the lecture on locked cell phones earlier) and a tunnel? A woman who is crossing the border with others who survives a poisoning? A dude who brings willing? girls to the US to kill them and may or may not be the killer? Another dude looking for that dude who, despite being a tough guy, almost gets owned by a fat lady. I just don't know yet.

Worse for me is the portrayal of Sonya's Asperger's. I know quite a bit about Asperger's and I don't buy that Sonya is a detective working independently if she is that profoundly socially impaired. First, you can't be a detective if you don't understand human connections. A detective needs to understand motivation in order to investigate cases. Second, Asperger's does not prevent learning. Sonya is presented as knowing almost nothing of human interaction. If she is a detective who presumably has been working a while, she would have learned much more than she is shown to know. The thing about autism is the lack of social interaction based upon a lack of ability to (1) understand how other people think (and that other people don't think like you) and (2) lack of intuitiveness of social situations. Social situations and cues are learned by rote -- meaning that you learn each situation one at a time. But you do learn from experience and, after a while, you have many experiences from which to draw from. There still might be social awkwardness but the cluelessness exhibited by Sonya surely would not exist at this point in her life -- especially if she is a detective. The bar trolling scene was also really out of character. For a person who doesn't like physical contact to be okay with casual sex doesn't fit.

The last thing is why the Asperger's? You have a show seemingly based upon border politics and interjected is this person with a neurological disability. I get that an Asperger's person is blunt, doesn't understand politics (and maybe is the supposed voice of reason because she doesn't have the prejudices that neurotypicals do) so is able to work the case without regard to the politics but it seems really strained and reaching. I presume it isn't supposed to be a cute disability (unlike Monk whose OCD was handled like comedy relief) and they aren't necessarily making Sonya a sympathetic person but I'm not seeing the point. I don't know if this is disease of the week stuff or the magic of Asperger's stuff but I am concerned that the portrayal here isn't honest.
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post #120 of 562 Old 07-20-2013, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daryl zero View Post

A woman who is crossing the border with others who survives a poisoning?

I would have to rewatch the scene but I don't think she drank anything. She said something to the effect of don't drink it why would it be here. I think the reason she was barely crawling away is supposed to be dehydration and fatigue.

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