DirecTV is now blocking recording to DVD recorders on certain channels - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 28 Old 06-29-2013, 09:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I tried copying part of the Dodgers/Phillies game from Prime Ticket and received the message, "This program is not recordable in +VR mode". The game was recordable on the Philadelphia CNS channel. Then I switch to HBO and found DirecTV is now blocking these channels also. Even if you record to you DVR, the blocking to you DVD player is still blocked. WTF. Is this legal? When did DIRECTV start doing this? Didn't the Supreme Court settle this for the consumers decades ago? Solutions? Thanks.

(Perhaps recording to another media such as DVD-RAM may still work? Perhaps a VCR will still work? I assume you can still record these in HD via component? I would think they could not block this without blocking viewing by component? I will need to test my recently archived HD DVR recordings off of HBO to see if blocked.)
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post #2 of 28 Old 06-29-2013, 09:37 PM
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Welcome to the new world of DRM. Of course it's legal: the content providers don't want you to be able to exercise your rights under fair use, because it's more lucrative if they can make you pay for the same thing multiple times. It's also technically illegal to rip commercial DVDs now, even if you own them. The content providers managed to trample on fair use by saying that bypassing copy protection is illegal, even though copying a disc that you own isn't. Unfortunately, a judge agreed to their asinine argument, and since all commercial DVDs are encrypted, it's therefore illegal to copy pretty much any DVD that you didn't create yourself. See this AVSF topic for more details. If you've been able to copy recordings from premium channels like HBO until recently, you're actually behind the curve. Most pay-TV providers have been setting the copy-once flag on premium channels for quite a while now.

It is sometimes possible to save an analogue capture of protected shows through composite or component outputs, but aside from the inconvenience of having to wait for the entire program to play out, it's also possible for Macrovision protection to disable even VCRs from saving protected content.
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post #3 of 28 Old 06-29-2013, 09:55 PM
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Welcome to the world brought to you by all those people that think pirating is ok


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post #4 of 28 Old 06-29-2013, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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It may be I didn't notice until recently because my former DVD recorder broke and may not have had the technology to enable the blocking that my other DVR recorder (which I moved from my bedroom and didn't use often to copy) appears to possess?

Any speculation on if or when the industry will block HD over component? Apparently already restricted to 1080i on Blu-Ray, but apparently most HD sets cannot play 1080p over component anyway. Moot for me for most part since I have a commercial Panasonic from 2004 that is not 1080p.

I wonder how they can block the recording of 480i but still allow the viewer to watch 480i? Then why don't they enable viewers to watch 1080i over component but block its recording? Apparently can do for 480i but not 1080i? Thanks.
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post #5 of 28 Old 06-29-2013, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by igreg View Post

It may be I didn't notice until recently because my former DVD recorder broke and may not have had the technology to enable the blocking that my other DVR recorder (which I moved from my bedroom and didn't use often to copy) appears to possess?

Yes, that is quite possible. Older VCRs are also immune to some of the analogue copy protection schemes, such as Macrovision's. If your equipment ignores or doesn't have the features that some schemes exploit, it may still function.
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Any speculation on if or when the industry will block HD over component? Apparently already restricted to 1080i on Blu-Ray, but apparently most HD sets cannot play 1080p over component anyway. Moot for me for most part since I have a commercial Panasonic from 2004 that is not 1080p.

Most Blu-ray players, to my knowledge, will only output 480i/p over anything other than HDMI, assuming they are playing a commercial BD-ROM. Unprotected sources may allow up to 1080i over component, but there is some variation between sources and players, especially depending on where the hardware and software originated.
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I wonder how they can block the recording of 480i but still allow the viewer to watch 480i? Then why don't they enable viewers to watch 1080i over component but block its recording? Apparently can do for 480i but not 1080i? Thanks.

There are multiple ways to facilitate it. Macrovision's ACP exploits newer VCRs' automatic gain control to render recordings of protected content unwatchable, while modern DVD recorders are manufactured to detect and refuse to record analogue sources containing ACP. Televisions are allowed to display the content, since they can't record it. The simplest method to prevent recording over component is to not include component outputs on new cable boxes, which AFAIK is becoming more common.
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Welcome to the world brought to you by all those people that think pirating is ok

That's something of an oversimplification, since these asinine protections exist mainly to encourage Joe Sixpack to give up on archiving his TV shows and either buy them on disc or over a subscription video service. They have no effect on piracy rates, since all DRM schemes get cracked eventually: it's an inherently flawed technology.
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post #6 of 28 Old 06-30-2013, 12:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Yes, that is quite possible. Older VCRs are also immune to some of the analogue copy protection schemes, such as Macrovision's. If your equipment ignores or doesn't have the features that some schemes exploit, it may still function.
Most Blu-ray players, to my knowledge, will only output 480i/p over anything other than HDMI, assuming they are playing a commercial BD-ROM. Unprotected sources may allow up to 1080i over component, but there is some variation between sources and players, especially depending on where the hardware and software originated.
There are multiple ways to facilitate it. Macrovision's ACP exploits newer VCRs' automatic gain control to render recordings of protected content unwatchable, while modern DVD recorders are manufactured to detect and refuse to record analogue sources containing ACP. Televisions are allowed to display the content, since they can't record it. The simplest method to prevent recording over component is to not include component outputs on new cable boxes, which AFAIK is becoming more common.
That's something of an oversimplification, since these asinine protections exist mainly to encourage Joe Sixpack to give up on archiving his TV shows and either buy them on disc or over a subscription video service. They have no effect on piracy rates, since all DRM schemes get cracked eventually: it's an inherently flawed technology.

Thanks for the information. I do see where the new PS3's have component capability but no longer allow HD resolution of Blu-Ray disks via component; gaming, streaming and home video are not effected. I believe the older models that don't have this restriction may still be sold legally until December 31, 2013. My PS3 allows me to pasthrough HD from Blu-Ray; however, the max resolution is capped at 13.5 mbs with the Hauppauge DVR; therefore, not really a good alternative with Blu-Rays having much higher resolution, superior audio, extras, artwork, et al. for reasonable prices.
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post #7 of 28 Old 06-30-2013, 02:26 AM
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Suspect they are using http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CGMS-A

This is a signal that can be embedded in a video output (how this is embedded varies between frame rates and line standards as existing data signalling systems can be used in some cases - such as Line 23 WSS in 576/50i stuff) and it is used to flag copy protection.

Unlike Macrovision, I believe it doesn't modify the video signal to make it un-recordable, it just flags to recorders that there are copy protection issues with the media. For it to be effective it requires that recorders respect the copy flags - the video itself is still perfectly normal (unlike analogue Macrovision which does all sorts of horrible things that TVs are usually happy with but VCRs weren't). AIUI most (if not all) DVD Recorders will respect the CGMS data, presumably it is a requirement for selling DVD Forum licensed devices?

In the UK we've had issues where a broadcaster has used a clip from a commercial DVD (which is legal under UK Fair Dealing law) which has contained CGMS data in Line 23 (SD 576/50i) This has survived all the way through the programme chain and caused people who are recording the show to have their DVD Recorders stop when they see the copy protection data. (So most broadcasters will ask their picture editors to blank the top line to prevent this...)
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post #8 of 28 Old 06-30-2013, 02:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Do you know of DVD recorders that do not "respect the flag." I take it that it is not legally required for manufacturs to do so. I am contemplating purchasing a second DVD recorder anyway. Tx.
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post #9 of 28 Old 06-30-2013, 08:06 AM
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Yes, my old Polaroid DVD recorder would record anything. It had component inputs too, which is pretty rare. You could find them on eBay for a while for around $70. It was a model 2001G I think.


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post #10 of 28 Old 06-30-2013, 02:49 PM
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Ironically, the one that's on eBay right now is listed as model DRM-2001G. biggrin.gif
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Originally Posted by igreg View Post

I take it that it is not legally required for manufacturs to do so.

It is now, but some recorders will predate the requirements, and recorders made in other countries don't obey them.
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post #11 of 28 Old 06-30-2013, 03:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Ironically, the one that's on eBay right now is listed as model DRM-2001G. biggrin.gif
It is now, but some recorders will predate the requirements, and recorders made in other countries don't obey them.


That explains a lot. My prior DVD Recorders were both from Panasonic (hard drive models), and I had no problem with them...until they stopped working. The Phillips was less expensive and as it turned out not as good a performer as the Panasonic....and also has the blocking.

So even the newer models from Panasonic should not "obey" the "requirements"? Thanks.
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post #12 of 28 Old 06-30-2013, 03:20 PM
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Only the earliest Polaroid recorders could record anything. That was "fixed" with the later units. My Polaroid wouldn't record flagged stuff.
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post #13 of 28 Old 06-30-2013, 03:36 PM
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Forgot about that. Those Polariods came in several versions. Mine was a C if I remember correctly. It was still wide open. I have to warn you though, picture quality is more than a few steps down from Panasonic. I think the Polaroids were actually Philips/Magnavox inside.


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post #14 of 28 Old 06-30-2013, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by igreg View Post

So even the newer models from Panasonic should not "obey" the "requirements"? Thanks.

Just because a piece of CE equipment is made by a foreign company doesn't mean it will ignore local regulations. Japanese products designed for the Japanese market won't obey the requirements, but ones made for the American market will. It's possible to buy Blu-ray recorders in Japan that function the same as DVD recorders do in the US, because Japan doesn't have the same regulations. None of those units are sold outside of Japan, of course.
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post #15 of 28 Old 06-30-2013, 06:57 PM
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So even the newer models from Panasonic should not "obey" the "requirements"? Thanks.

This is incorrect. I have Panasonic DVD recorders from several years, starting with the '05 EH50, and ending with an EH59 manufactured about a year and a half ago, and they ALL conform to the copy inhibit flag. It is easily fixed with a filtering device that removes the flag.

I have never had a program from DirecTV that would not record on my various DVD recorders. I don't attempt to make DVDs of sports, but movies and other programming, from HBO, Cinemax, Starz, and many other channels, have always worked fine. What program exactly did you try to record off HBO that you were unable to copy to a DVD? I'd like to know to test it myself.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #16 of 28 Old 07-01-2013, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

It's possible to buy Blu-ray recorders in Japan that function the same as DVD recorders do in the US, because Japan doesn't have the same regulations. None of those units are sold outside of Japan, of course.

It's possible to buy Blu-ray recorders in the UK (Panasonic make them) - but AIUI they obey our local copy-protection mechanisms. HD content broadcast free-to-air on OTA and satellite is accompanied by copy protection flags that usually allow just a single copy to be made on removable media. I don't know if Japan has any copy protection on its non-pay TV broadcasts.

ISTR that Japanese Blu-ray players, like UK ones, have integrated OTA and/or satellite tuners, and don't take external HD baseband inputs (i.e. HDMI or the Japanese component D-style connectors)?
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post #17 of 28 Old 07-02-2013, 04:16 PM - Thread Starter
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This is incorrect. I have Panasonic DVD recorders from several years, starting with the '05 EH50, and ending with an EH59 manufactured about a year and a half ago, and they ALL conform to the copy inhibit flag. It is easily fixed with a filtering device that removes the flag.

I have never had a program from DirecTV that would not record on my various DVD recorders. I don't attempt to make DVDs of sports, but movies and other programming, from HBO, Cinemax, Starz, and many other channels, have always worked fine. What program exactly did you try to record off HBO that you were unable to copy to a DVD? I'd like to know to test it myself.


Dodgers on Prime Ticket and HBO were blocked. Went to CNN and other basic cable....no problem.

I had the EH50, and did not have any problems either. Only with the Phillips. Why do you believe the Panasonic conforms to the copy inhibit flag if you did not experience problems copying?
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post #18 of 28 Old 07-03-2013, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by igreg View Post

Dodgers on Prime Ticket and HBO were blocked. Went to CNN and other basic cable....no problem.

I had the EH50, and did not have any problems either. Only with the Phillips. Why do you believe the Panasonic conforms to the copy inhibit flag if you did not experience problems copying?




I believe he was referring to the Panny in conjunction with the filtering device.
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post #19 of 28 Old 07-05-2013, 12:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I believe he was referring to the Panny in conjunction with the filtering device.


He said, referrring to the Panasonic, that they ALL conform to the copy inhibit flag. I did not find that was true with the Panasonic, unless DirecTV just started the blocking within the last year or at most two.
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post #20 of 28 Old 07-05-2013, 12:44 PM
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This is incorrect. I have Panasonic DVD recorders from several years, starting with the '05 EH50, and ending with an EH59 manufactured about a year and a half ago, and they ALL conform to the copy inhibit flag. It is easily fixed with a filtering device that removes the flag.

I have never had a program from DirecTV that would not record on my various DVD recorders. I don't attempt to make DVDs of sports, but movies and other programming, from HBO, Cinemax, Starz, and many other channels, have always worked fine. What program exactly did you try to record off HBO that you were unable to copy to a DVD? I'd like to know to test it myself.


Dodgers on Prime Ticket and HBO were blocked. Went to CNN and other basic cable....no problem.

I had the EH50, and did not have any problems either. Only with the Phillips. Why do you believe the Panasonic conforms to the copy inhibit flag if you did not experience problems copying?

I know that the Panasonic DVD recorders conform to CP because every time I have attempted to make a recording of known protected content, the machines tell me the content is protected and not recordable. Legally, they HAVE to comply. This issue isn't with the Panasonic DVD recorders, it's with the Philips recorder being set so sensitive (by the manufacturer) that it THINKS that there is content protection when it isn't present. Sony recorders, and Philips are known for these "false positives". I do have a filter, but I have never needed it for anything I have attempted to record off DirecTV yet. This weekend I made many recordings from HBO and Starz without any problem at all.

It isn't the Panasonic ignoring the content protection, it's the Philips that is seeing one where it doesn't exist. A filter would most probably fix the problem. Why the issue has just appeared is interesting.

Luke

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post #21 of 28 Old 07-05-2013, 04:22 PM
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I know that the Panasonic DVD recorders conform to CP because every time I have attempted to make a recording of known protected content, the machines tell me the content is protected and not recordable. Legally, they HAVE to comply. This issue isn't with the Panasonic DVD recorders, it's with the Philips recorder being set so sensitive (by the manufacturer) that it THINKS that there is content protection when it isn't present. Sony recorders, and Philips are known for these "false positives". I do have a filter, but I have never needed it for anything I have attempted to record off DirecTV yet. This weekend I made many recordings from HBO and Starz without any problem at all.

It isn't the Panasonic ignoring the content protection, it's the Philips that is seeing one where it doesn't exist. A filter would most probably fix the problem. Why the issue has just appeared is interesting.




Do you have something plugged into the HDMI output of your D* receiver when you're recording? The only way I get my Panny's to record is to unplug the HDMI.
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post #22 of 28 Old 07-06-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Church AV Guy View Post

I know that the Panasonic DVD recorders conform to CP because every time I have attempted to make a recording of known protected content, the machines tell me the content is protected and not recordable. Legally, they HAVE to comply. This issue isn't with the Panasonic DVD recorders, it's with the Philips recorder being set so sensitive (by the manufacturer) that it THINKS that there is content protection when it isn't present. Sony recorders, and Philips are known for these "false positives". I do have a filter, but I have never needed it for anything I have attempted to record off DirecTV yet. This weekend I made many recordings from HBO and Starz without any problem at all.

It isn't the Panasonic ignoring the content protection, it's the Philips that is seeing one where it doesn't exist. A filter would most probably fix the problem. Why the issue has just appeared is interesting.




Do you have something plugged into the HDMI output of your D* receiver when you're recording? The only way I get my Panny's to record is to unplug the HDMI.

Oh yes, I have the HDMI output of my DirecTV DVRs connected to my television.

Luke

Evil is charming and beautiful. It makes you doubt yourself. It asks for one small compromise after another until it whittles you down, and it functions best when no one believes in it.-JOA
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post #23 of 28 Old 07-07-2013, 03:40 PM
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Oh yes, I have the HDMI output of my DirecTV DVRs connected to my television.




Thanks. I PM'd you.
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post #24 of 28 Old 09-23-2013, 08:43 AM
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D'accord! Content venders are using the 'arms race' between themselves and the encryption crackers as an excuse to double and triple charge fair users for content. As you said the codes always get cracked anyway, but why not make a little extra money off of 'Joe Six-pack' in the interim? So, welcome to the new world of 'corporate-fleeces-the-consumer-yet-again'.
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post #25 of 28 Old 09-24-2013, 10:57 AM
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You just necro'd a thread that was in the wrong forum to begin with (DVDs aren't HD), here's the right place to continue the good fight...

http://www.avsforum.com/f/106/dvd-recorders-standard-def
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post #26 of 28 Old 09-25-2013, 12:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post

You just necro'd a thread that was in the wrong forum to begin with (DVDs aren't HD), here's the right place to continue the good fight...

http://www.avsforum.com/f/106/dvd-recorders-standard-def



....except it does belong because you are attempting to record a HD broadcast, even if the resultant recording is in SD.
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post #27 of 28 Old 11-09-2013, 07:02 AM
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Where can you get the filter

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post #28 of 28 Old 11-09-2013, 07:40 AM
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Where can you get the filter


One possible filter(and the cheapest) if you have component would be something like this:

http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=101&cp_id=10114&cs_id=1011407&p_id=7114&seq=1&format=2

Another if you only have composite or S-video would be this Grex:

http://www.amazon.com/XDIMAX-GREX-7-4-Grex-Video-Stabilizer/dp/B0096I2DNE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384011560&sr=8-1&keywords=grex+digital+video+stabilizer

I own both and the picture quality of the more expensive Grex is better but you also might be OK with the Monoprice(Lenkeng built) model, again if you have component output.

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