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post #5341 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by BGLeduc View Post
Another gem from Lauda:

http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/170251.html

I have to take issue with this bit though. I just hope he was being quoted out of context:

"We should think, together with Bernie because he is the master, what we can improve," he said. "I have to say the change that we had with Charlie [Whiting, race director] and the stewards not get involved as much as before was a great move. [At Hockenheim] even the Sauber in the middle of the road it was exciting. If there was a safety car then everybody would get bored."

Yes, very exciting…..particularly for the track workers that has to sprint across the track to reach the car. I suspect that Nikki will be clarifying his comment in a day or two.

Which goes back to my original thought of why wasn't the safety car deployed? I don't want to think what would have happened if the track workers that had to run out onto a live track had accidentally slipped and fallen we would be having a different discussion.

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post #5342 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 02:07 PM
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I can't wait for Spa GP! Love that track.

I've been calling it the Laguna Seca of Europe.

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post #5343 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 02:53 PM
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I can't wait for Spa GP! Love that track.

I've been calling it the Laguna Seca of Europe.
Spa is a favorite of mine and one that's on the bucket list.

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post #5344 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 02:57 PM
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post #5346 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 03:10 PM
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Okay. I have a question for you (all of you F1 experts) cuz this is confusing for me.

If I have been following things correctly, Mercedes has had more HP in their cars (this year) compared to everyone else. If this IS correct... why hell is this allowed? I thought all the cars had to have similar specifications but could do some tinkering and adjustments.

If this is the case then ... I don't know. I thought it was supposed to be an even playing field. What's the point of racing against another team that will 100% smoke your ass because they can have more HP but your team can't?

I'm a newb to the sport. Just trying to understand this part.

I mean.... James Hunt got disqualified for having his wheels a half inch wider.

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post #5347 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Okay. I have a question for you (all of you F1 experts) cuz this is confusing for me.

If I have been following things correctly, Mercedes has had more HP in their cars (this year) compared to everyone else. If this IS correct... why hell is this allowed? I thought all the cars had to have similar specifications but could do some tinkering and adjustments.

If this is the case then ... I don't know. I thought it was supposed to be an even playing field. What's the point of racing against another team that will 100% smoke your ass because they can have more HP but your team can't?

I'm a newb to the sport. Just trying to understand this part.

I mean.... James Hunt got disqualified for having his wheels a half inch wider.
The formula does not specify how many horsepower they are allowed. It has to be a 1.6L turbocharged V8 with all kinds of technical specifications concerning maximum turbo boost, engine components and the hybrid system. Believe me, if F1 found something that ran afoul of those regs they'd be disqualified. Also note that 3 other teams use exactly the same power unit as team Mercedes does, yet they're a good deal slower. That's because of better aerodynamics, brakes, suspension, chassis, driver talent, who knows. This year is hardly unprecedented; several times in the past a team has figured out how to do something much better than anyone else and ran away with it for a year or two. This happens especially after new technical regulations begin.

Now, why can no one come up with a new engine during the season to catch up to Merc? There is a rule limiting engine development during the season to keep costs down; there is talk of doing away with it. Anyways, IMHO I think we'll be in for a great season next year with Merc, Red Bull, Williams, Ferrari, and maybe even McClaren all in real contention for the title.

Also, I'm pretty sure Hunt's points were restored on appeal after the DSQ.
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post #5348 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Okay. I have a question for you (all of you F1 experts) cuz this is confusing for me.

If I have been following things correctly, Mercedes has had more HP in their cars (this year) compared to everyone else. If this IS correct... why hell is this allowed? I thought all the cars had to have similar specifications but could do some tinkering and adjustments.

If this is the case then ... I don't know. I thought it was supposed to be an even playing field. What's the point of racing against another team that will 100% smoke your ass because they can have more HP but your team can't?

I'm a newb to the sport. Just trying to understand this part.

I mean.... James Hunt got disqualified for having his wheels a half inch wider.
You are confusing F1 with NASCAR or other series that actually limit engine power. EDIT: I may be off base on NASCAR. Anyone know if the restrictor plates they use for plate tracks are different diameter depending on the engine manufacturer?

Engine builders are required to build a motor within a certain set of technical regulations, but there is no rule that says one manufacturer can not do a better job than everyone else. They are limited on fuel flow rate, which limits them to artificially low RPM. But there is no rule that says Merc can not have 100 HP more than their rivals. And that is how it should be, in my estimation.

If they want to start regulating power, or adding "success ballast" then it is game over for F1 as we currently know it.

And while I am ranting…..they want to know why the stands at some races are empty? It's simple. Ticket prices are too high because Bernie's sanctioning fees are too high. It has little to do with "The Show", which this year has been excellent.

For kicks I looked at the prices for a Paddock Club ticket for COTA….I thought it would be interesting to know what a real 1st class F1 experience costs? $5K for 3 days. The really good "regular" seats are either $750 to I think, $1400 for 3 days. It costs $250 to park a f*cking car for 3 days at COTA. The cheapest ticket is General Admission. It's about $250 for 3 days.

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post #5349 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 03:43 PM
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What's the point of racing against another team that will 100% smoke your ass because they can have more HP but your team can't?

I'm a newb to the sport. Just trying to understand this part.
I wanted to comment on this directly….

F1 differs from every other form of motorsport in that the teams are required to build their own chassis. As such, they are considered constructors, and there is a World Championship that goes along with that in addition to a drivers title. They are not required to build their own engines, although some do (Merc, Ferrari, Renault when had a team).

As such, it is as much an engineering challenge as it is a driver's. Many or us actually enjoy that aspect of the sport. In comparison, NASCAR and Indy are a lot closer to a spec series, with very tight regulations. There is plenty of engineering in evidence their as well, but it is tilted more toward a drivers championship, since everyone has very similar equipment. Nothing wrong with that, but for me personally, I much prefer F1 to any other form of motorsport.
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post #5350 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 03:56 PM
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Wow! Thanks guys for the explanation. I simply wasn't clear on how things worked but I am starting to now.

And I guess I didn't mean to sound like I want them to all be the same. I was thinking of it like, would it be fair to race a stock Honda Civic against a stock Ferrari Italia? Lol, no. And that's where my frame of mind was because here I am watching Lewis Hamilton (a fan-f**king-tastic driver) AND he gets to have a faster car? Unfair bias in my mind but I get what you are saying and it's fun that the teams get to do their own thing within some constraints.

The post above about Ferrari getting more HP triggered this line of questioning in my mind and I was curious. Thanks for explaining it to me. I can start hating Hamilton/Rosberg a little less... maybe. Them divas. If I had the opportunity to even just race and come in last place in a Formula 1 event... you sure as hell wouldn't see such a sour face from me. I'd be all smiles and appreciate how lucky I was. But I guess I don't have the racing driver personality.

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post #5351 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 04:07 PM
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Damn you guys are quick!
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post #5352 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 04:17 PM
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If I had the opportunity to even just race and come in last place in a Formula 1 event... you sure as hell wouldn't see such a sour face from me. I'd be all smiles and appreciate how lucky I was. But I guess I don't have the racing driver personality.
This is why I have become a big DR fan.That kid has a mile wide smile all the time.He truly loves where he is at,and loves his job.
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post #5353 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 04:54 PM
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post #5354 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 06:13 PM
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This is why I have become a big DR fan.That kid has a mile wide smile all the time.He truly loves where he is at,and loves his job.
Damn straight! I admit to not paying any attention to Ricciardo when he was with TR, but as a huge Mark Webber fan, I was eager to see how Daniel would stack up against Vettel. Being a card carrying Vettel hater, Ricciardo has absolutely made my year.

The man had a podium taken away from him in his first race for RB, which was also his HOME RACE, and he didn't whine, cry, or stomp his feet. He just put his head down and got on with the job. The F1 gods can be a fickle lot, but if there is any justice in the world, there will be a WDC in his future.
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post #5355 of 5363 Old Yesterday, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by BGLeduc View Post
You are confusing F1 with NASCAR or other series that actually limit engine power. EDIT: I may be off base on NASCAR. Anyone know if the restrictor plates they use for plate tracks are different diameter depending on the engine manufacturer?

Engine builders are required to build a motor within a certain set of technical regulations, but there is no rule that says one manufacturer can not do a better job than everyone else. They are limited on fuel flow rate, which limits them to artificially low RPM. But there is no rule that says Merc can not have 100 HP more than their rivals. And that is how it should be, in my estimation.

If they want to start regulating power, or adding "success ballast" then it is game over for F1 as we currently know it.

And while I am ranting…..they want to know why the stands at some races are empty? It's simple. Ticket prices are too high because Bernie's sanctioning fees are too high. It has little to do with "The Show", which this year has been excellent.

For kicks I looked at the prices for a Paddock Club ticket for COTA….I thought it would be interesting to know what a real 1st class F1 experience costs? $5K for 3 days. The really good "regular" seats are either $750 to I think, $1400 for 3 days. It costs $250 to park a f*cking car for 3 days at COTA. The cheapest ticket is General Admission. It's about $250 for 3 days.

I have heard that from people that attended the F-1 race at COTA last year. That's fine with me as the MotoGP Paddock tickets and parking passes from COTA look much more "affordable".

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post #5356 of 5363 Old Today, 05:04 AM
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You are confusing F1 with NASCAR or other series that actually limit engine power. EDIT: I may be off base on NASCAR. Anyone know if the restrictor plates they use for plate tracks are different diameter depending on the engine manufacturer?
NASCAR plates are a universal size per track, and they are only used at Daytona and Talladega. And you can't say F1 doesn't limit engine power because it most certainly does with the stupid fuel flow limit rules this year. That has the same net effect as a plate.

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post #5357 of 5363 Old Today, 05:36 AM
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NASCAR plates are a universal size per track, and they are only used at Daytona and Talladega. And you can't say F1 doesn't limit engine power because it most certainly does with the stupid fuel flow limit rules this year. That has the same net effect as a plate.
Fair enough, NASCAR was an incorrect example. My bad.

But the fuel rate is the same for everyone, no matter how much power an engine makes, and it is used as a misguided attempt to make F1 appear more "green".

My point is that there is no attempt in F1 to equalize engine power, which was the crux of the OP's question. The key word there is EQUALIZE. If a manufacturer can get more power from the same rate of fuel intake, so be it.
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post #5358 of 5363 Old Today, 08:08 AM
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Fair enough, NASCAR was an incorrect example. My bad.

But the fuel rate is the same for everyone, no matter how much power an engine makes, and it is used as a misguided attempt to make F1 appear more "green".

My point is that there is no attempt in F1 to equalize engine power, which was the crux of the OP's question. The key word there is EQUALIZE. If a manufacturer can get more power from the same rate of fuel intake, so be it.
I don't think the fuel flow rate has much to do with making the sport appear more green. The 100Kg overall fuel limit takes care of that. Its more to do with limiting the effect of the turbochargers I believe. Back in the old turbocharger era (the 80's) things got silly. A turbocharged engine with enough pressure and enough fuel dumped in it has essentially unlimited power... that is until you find the breaking point and the engine explodes. Having no fuel rate limit would mean teams would put something like a "push to pass" button on their car and triple the fuel flow to make passing super easy. And also in qualifying the car might suddenly have twice the HP as it does during the race (on average) because they are not worried about conserving fuel.
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post #5359 of 5363 Old Today, 08:13 AM
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I don't think the fuel flow rate has much to do with making the sport appear more green. The 100Kg overall fuel limit takes care of that. Its more to do with limiting the effect of the turbochargers I believe. Back in the old turbocharger era (the 80's) things got silly. A turbocharged engine with enough pressure and enough fuel dumped in it has essentially unlimited power... that is until you find the breaking point and the engine explodes. Having no fuel rate limit would mean teams would put something like a "push to pass" button on their car and triple the fuel flow to make passing super easy. And also in qualifying the car might suddenly have twice the HP as it does during the race (on average) because they are not worried about conserving fuel.
OK, I will buy that too.

Can we just agree then that while F1 does put measures in place to limit power, it does not attempt to equalize it between engine manufacturers? If not, I am about out of bogus arguments to back up my points, all which see to be easily debased at the moment.:-)
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post #5360 of 5363 Old Today, 08:14 AM
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OK, I will buy that too.

Can we just agree then that while F1 does put measures in place to limit power, it does not attempt to equalize it between engine manufacturers? If not, I am about out of bogus arguments to back up my points, all which see to be easily debased at the moment.:-)
Yes, that is true
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Can we just agree then that while F1 does put measures in place to limit power, it does not attempt to equalize it between engine manufacturers?
I'll agree with this,though I don't like the way the regs.neuter the overall output of the PU's.
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post #5362 of 5363 Old Today, 02:47 PM
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I'll agree with this,though I don't like the way the regs.neuter the overall output of the PU's.
And I agree with that as well.

Group Hug? Maybe we can all sing Kumbaya?

On second thought………how about NO. :-)
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Yeah, no.

I'll break that acoustic guitar over your head if you do!

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