Is 1080p cable tv coming soon? - AVS Forum
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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As 4KTV becomes the next 1080p, will 1080p be the next format for broadcasters? I doubt it.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:27 AM
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Soon?
Short-term.. No.
But will we still be watching 100% 720/1080/480 in 2019 or 2025 ... I doubt it..
Most Cable / Fiber providers probably need the next 36 months or so to sort out various bandwidth issues & add remaining HD channel offeringss & more VOD ... after that .........
Who knows .. perhaps major networks will make available a 1080P and/or 4K "feed" at a higher cost to providers to get more revenue ... Once one does it, others will soon follow ...
Time will tell ..
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:47 AM
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1080p is available now from some streaming services for select movies. Now that Net Neutrality has lost, you can bet that your pay tv provider will start charging you a premium for 1080p, or access to Netflix, or access to Hulu +, etc etc etc.
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Old 01-22-2014, 10:53 AM
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For now, I noticed that Comcast has some (four) On Demand movies that are supposedy 1080p.

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Old 01-22-2014, 11:06 AM
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Once the h.265/HEVC codec matures a bit I think we'll see start to see some 4k television broadcats. My guess is the 2016 summer Olympics will be the first broadcast to be available in 4k. It will take some time to roll out h.265 boxes, and for the first few years they'll just be a handful of 4k channels for special events and the like. Once h.265 is ubiquitous (maybe by 2025?), most if not all 1080i/720p channels will be converted to 1080p. More as a side effect of 4k than any demand for 1080p.
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Old 01-22-2014, 01:46 PM
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I'm still waiting for some HD channels to hit TWC thirteen years after I picked up my first HDTV. The technology might be there but that doesn't mean the money, willingness or capabilities of broadcasters and MSOs is.


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Old 01-22-2014, 02:00 PM
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Someone please define "1080p".

Is not every "1080i" image displayed on a 1920x1080 fixed-pixel panel (LCD or Plasma) actually being displayed in "1080p"?
To my knowledge, the only displays that produced an interlaced image are CRT's . . . confused.gif

If "1080p Cable TV" comes to pass, it seems that it would just be another excuse to jack up rates while not providing any additional benefit to the viewer. rolleyes.gif

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Old 01-22-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by WS65711 View Post

Someone please define "1080p".

Is not every "1080i" image displayed on a 1920x1080 fixed-pixel panel (LCD or Plasma) actually being displayed in "1080p"?
To my knowledge, the only displays that produced an interlaced image are CRT's . . . confused.gif

If "1080p Cable TV" comes to pass, it seems that it would just be another excuse to jack up rates while not providing any additional benefit to the viewer. rolleyes.gif

Think about what your TV looks like when you are watching a CBS program. That is 1080I. Now, think about what your TV looks like when you are watching a bluray disc, that's 1080P......

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Old 01-22-2014, 04:26 PM
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Think about what your TV looks like when you are watching a CBS program. That is 1080I. Now, think about what your TV looks like when you are watching a bluray disc, that's 1080P......

Yeah... but the difference in quality has little to do with 1080i versus 1080p. Much more to do with a high bitrate h.264 stream from BD, as opposed to MPEG-2 from your CBS affiliate. Most (if not all) weekly comedies and dramas on CBS are actually shot at 24p. If you have a decent TV it will inverse-telecine it back to 24 frames per second anyway. Live broadcasts are actually 1080i (60 fields, 30 frames per second), but Bluray doesn't support 1080p60 either anyways.
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Old 01-22-2014, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by bobby94928 View Post

Think about what your TV looks like when you are watching a CBS program. That is 1080I. Now, think about what your TV looks like when you are watching a bluray disc, that's 1080P......

Well, believe it or not.. I don't have a Bluray player. I'm an early adopter, but some things I choose not to adopt for various reasons. My 65 inch "early adopted" HDTV for instance cost me over $6000 when I bought it.. in 2002. It's a CRT set, and is 1080i. It displays 540 lines of resolution on each scan. I also have 4 LCD sets, the largest of those is 46". It display 1080p from a 1080i signal. It always displays all 1080 lines of vertical resolution at the same time... I don't think there is any way to force it to interlace. 1080p is 1080p, no matter the origin there are still 1080 lines, all displayed at the same time. If your LCD or Plasma TV currently interlaces when you watch Cable or OTA you probably should get it serviced. smile.gif

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Old 01-22-2014, 05:19 PM
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Of course a native 1080p display can only display a 1080p picture the 1080i/720p signal is up converted somewhere it still isn't as good as a true 1080p source.

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Old 01-22-2014, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rekbones View Post

Of course a native 1080p display can only display a 1080p picture the 1080i/720p signal is up converted somewhere it still isn't as good as a true 1080p source.

But even if that were true, it seems that many (most?) people don't really care about video quality. They go all goo-goo-ga-ga about the picture they get from Cable or eek.gif Satellite. But in most all cases that image pales in comparison to OTA . . . wink.gif

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Old 01-22-2014, 06:33 PM
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Ignoring the incorrect information that keeps popping up even after all these years...

Relevant to the topic...

I believe 1080p at 23.997 (essentially 24) fps is part of the OTA broadcast spec... I don't know about SAT transmission specs. And, 1080p at 24fps actually takes less bandwidth than 1080i at the usual 60fps... so there's nothing preventing anyone from broadcasting 1080p 24fps right now.

For reference... Blu-rays are generally (I say generally because there are some exceptions) 1080p at 24fps...

So... everything but live sports could be 1080p... just for whatever reason nobody is choosing to do it via broadcast TV.

Of course the quality wouldn't likely be as good as Blu-rays since most Blu-rays have plenty of room for higher bitrate than broadcast channels get... but that's a different argument.

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Old 01-22-2014, 07:33 PM
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DirecTV puts everything HD out in 720P or 1080i and PPV 1080P, and they have a bunch of channels for PPV. The show I am watching right now is in 1080i screen format unaltered, can be changed to 720P and 480, the show is Castle from 2010 on TNTHD channel 245 channel on D. That is what the smart TV I am watching now tells me. Over the air signal has less compression the satellite and way less then cable, and can look sharper.
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Old 01-22-2014, 07:37 PM
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Using 1080i cuts the bandwidth required for 1080p in half, which makes 1080i's bitrate requirements comparable to those of 720p. Broadacasters prefer this method, as it makes 1920x1080 inexpensive enough that they can still use sub-channels with that picture format. Using 1080p would require the entire 19 Mbps that ATSC channels have to offer, which is an ineffective use of bandwidth for most networks.

As for the quality question, 1080i60 only has 60 fields/second, not 60 frames/second. The problem with scanning only half of the vertical resolution at once is that each row of pixels isn't updated for each frame, which means that the vertical resolution of 1080i is essentially halved during movement, giving 1080i an effective resolution of 1920x540 during fast motion, which is even worse vertical resolution than 1280x720 has to offer. This is why 1080i is often downscaled to 720p, as 1080i doesn't have the full detail of 1080p, so downscaling it causes less of a reduction in quality than would result from downscaling 1080p to 720p (and keeping it at 1080p may give a false sense of how much detail is actually present).

It is true that a 1080i signal must be deinterlaced to be displayed on an LCD or plasma TV, as only CRTs are capable of showing interlaced content; however, the quality of deinterlaced video is lower than that of native progressive content, as deinterlacing often requires either interpolation or blending to remove combing artifacts from misaligned fields.
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Old 01-22-2014, 11:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Using 1080i cuts the bandwidth required for 1080p in half, which makes 1080i's bitrate requirements comparable to those of 720p. Broadacasters prefer this method, as it makes 1920x1080 inexpensive enough that they can still use sub-channels with that picture format. Using 1080p would require the entire 19 Mbps that ATSC channels have to offer, which is an ineffective use of bandwidth for most networks.

As for the quality question, 1080i60 only has 60 fields/second, not 60 frames/second. The problem with scanning only half of the vertical resolution at once is that each row of pixels isn't updated for each frame, which means that the vertical resolution of 1080i is essentially halved during movement, giving 1080i an effective resolution of 1920x540 during fast motion, which is even worse vertical resolution than 1280x720 has to offer. This is why 1080i is often downscaled to 720p, as 1080i doesn't have the full detail of 1080p, so downscaling it causes less of a reduction in quality than would result from downscaling 1080p to 720p (and keeping it at 1080p may give a false sense of how much detail is actually present).

It is true that a 1080i signal must be deinterlaced to be displayed on an LCD or plasma TV, as only CRTs are capable of showing interlaced content; however, the quality of deinterlaced video is lower than that of native progressive content, as deinterlacing often requires either interpolation or blending to remove combing artifacts from misaligned fields.

Some of what you're saying isn't true... and part of it needs to be qualified.

Saying 1080i is "half the bandwidth" of 1080p is a nonsensical statement. IT's like saying 2 oranges are more than 1 apple. More in what way?

1080i and 1080p alone doesn't tell you all the information... you need to know the frame/field rate too.

1080i at 60 "fields" per second is the equivalent of 1080p at 30 frames per second... Blu-ray is essentially 24 frames per second... so quite arguably 1080i at standard broadcast framerates would be better than 1080p at standard framerates... but all things are not equal.

OTA is MPEG2... also OTA is crammed into a channel that only allows about 19Mbps max... whereas a Blu-ray is typically MPEG4 or AVC similar and can go twice or more that bitrate.

SAT channels could be higher bitrates, but often they too are cramming channels into tighter spaces.

We are very rarely able to compare 1080i and 1080p for these very reasons.

In a perfect world, though, if we were given 1080i and 1080p at similar frame/field rates and similar bandwidth... there would be virtually no difference between them.

The only "better" thing would be 1080p at 60 frames per second... but I'm not aware of any mechanism to deliver or display that in homes.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:31 AM
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Saying 1080i is "half the bandwidth" of 1080p is a nonsensical statement. IT's like saying 2 oranges are more than 1 apple. More in what way?

1080i and 1080p alone doesn't tell you all the information... you need to know the frame/field rate too.

If you're going to compare interlaced and progressive video, it is logical to assume that you would do so with the same temporal resolution, which is 60 fields/30 frames per second in ATSC countries.
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1080i at 60 "fields" per second is the equivalent of 1080p at 30 frames per second... Blu-ray is essentially 24 frames per second... so quite arguably 1080i at standard broadcast framerates would be better than 1080p at standard framerates... but all things are not equal.

Spatial resolution and temporal resolution are two different video quality metrics. Using 1080i60 gives better temporal resolution than 1080p24 but also gives worse spatial resolution. Furthermore, most dramas are recorded at the film rate of 24 frames/sec and only use duplicate frames to reach 30 frames/sec for the purposes of making conversion to 1080i60 easy, so TV shows have equal temporal resolution and inferior spatial resolution compared to 1080p24 sourced from a BD.
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OTA is MPEG2... also OTA is crammed into a channel that only allows about 19Mbps max... whereas a Blu-ray is typically MPEG4 or AVC similar and can go twice or more that bitrate.

The video bitrate controls how various types of encoding artifacts may manifest, which is a third quality metric unrelated to the other two. (Also, AVC and MPEG-4 Part 10 are the same thing.)
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In a perfect world, though, if we were given 1080i and 1080p at similar frame/field rates and similar bandwidth... there would be virtually no difference between them.

Assuming the interlaced video was properly telecined, I would tend to agree, although that is sadly often not the case.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:25 AM
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Ignoring the incorrect information that keeps popping up even after all these years...

Relevant to the topic...

I believe 1080p at 23.997 (essentially 24) fps is part of the OTA broadcast spec... I don't know about SAT transmission specs. And, 1080p at 24fps actually takes less bandwidth than 1080i at the usual 60fps... so there's nothing preventing anyone from broadcasting 1080p 24fps right now.

It is part of the ATSC spec. However, no one ever uses it (and by no one, I mean no linear TV channel). I'm not 100% sure why, maybe a broadcast engineer can enlighten us. I assume its non-trivial to change back and forth between 1080p24 to 1080i60 when needed. Also, modern video encoders are pretty "smart". A 24 fps movie broadcast at 1080p60 (with a 3:2 frame repeating pattern) will not take anything like 2.5 times as much bandwidth to keep the same quality as broadcasting it at 1080p24. Probably more like a % or 2 (numbers I'm coming up with off the top of my head after experimenting with x264 years ago).
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:28 AM
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I do know the earliest HDTVs did not support 1080p at 24fps as an input source... so I assume they may not have been able to process one via their OTA digital tuners either. That could essentially be the explanation I suppose... but it begs the question of why this wasn't supported in HDTVs when it was part of the OTA broadcast spec. It's yet another example of the weirdness that got us to where we are now.

In a perfect world, we wouldn't have had 720p or 1080i... just 1080p and since there was going to be a digital transition anyway I had hoped they would expand the size of the OTA channel bandwidth to accommodate. I believe each channel has 6MHz... with the ability to multicast and have sub-channels in the digital signal, there would be less need for individual channels in the traditional sense... so I had hoped to go to say 8MHz per digital channel when they restructured everything. It would have been a great time to make that kind of change, when everyone had to switch over at the same time and new equipment was being designed and tested.

Doing that one thing would have solved a bunch of the problems and disagreements that led us to the multi-resolution standard we eventually got. But hindsight is always 20/20 I guess.

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Old 01-23-2014, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post

It is part of the ATSC spec. However, no one ever uses it (and by no one, I mean no linear TV channel). I'm not 100% sure why, maybe a broadcast engineer can enlighten us. I assume its non-trivial to change back and forth between 1080p24 to 1080i60 when needed.

Using 1080p24 isn't an option, because newscasts and other live broadcasts are recorded at 30 fps, and switching between 24 and 30 would require the station to stop transmitting while it made the switch, which would appear to viewers as the station being off the air. Why stations don't just use 1080p30 (29.97), though, I have no idea. Perhaps it has to do with the HD cameras that record 1080i natively, making 1080i sources more common than 1080p ones.
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Old 01-23-2014, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Using 1080p24 isn't an option, because newscasts and other live broadcasts are recorded at 30 fps, and switching between 24 and 30 would require the station to stop transmitting while it made the switch, which would appear to viewers as the station being off the air. Why stations don't just use 1080p30 (29.97), though, I have no idea. Perhaps it has to do with the HD cameras that record 1080i natively, making 1080i sources more common than 1080p ones.

Ahh, that's what I meant by changing from 1080i60 to 1080p24 is probably non-trivial. It can't be done instantly. However, I do recall when the local ABC station used to switch from 720p to 480i for every commercial break (they couldn't insert local commercials at 720p). Usually it was a second or two into the program before they'd go back to HD. Occasionally someone would just forget to switch and we'd be stuck with 480i for the night (according to our local HD thread here it truly was someone forgetting to press a button).

1080p30 isn't used because 24p content would look horribly juttery.
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Old 01-23-2014, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post

1080p30 isn't used because 24p content would look horribly juttery.

We're already seeing it that way, as 1080i60 gets deinterlaced to 1080p30 during playback. A plasma or LCD TV can't display an interlaced picture.
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Old 01-23-2014, 11:28 PM
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Who knows .. perhaps major networks will make available a 1080P and/or 4K "feed" at a higher cost to providers to get more revenue ...

ESPN had planned to do this when they converted their satellite uplinks to H.264 back in 2011. In fact, the Motorola DSR-6100 (the box that transcodes the H.264 satellite feed to MPEG-2 at head-ends) was specifically designed to provide three outputs (a 720p MPEG-2 output, a 480i letterboxed MPEG-2 output and a direct 1080p@60 H.264 output).

However, due to the dismal uptake of their 3D service, the concept of a premium 1080p channel was never brought to market.

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Old 01-24-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

We're already seeing it that way, as 1080i60 gets deinterlaced to 1080p30 during playback. A plasma or LCD TV can't display an interlaced picture.

No, its inverse telecined to 24p, unless you have a really bad TV. I can frame step any 24p content broadcast on 1080i (or 720p for that matter), and clearly see a 2:3 pattern. And I see 60 unique frames on live TV from 1080i, not 30.
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Old 01-24-2014, 03:58 PM
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I believe 1080p at 23.997 (essentially 24) fps is part of the OTA broadcast spec...

23.976.

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Old 01-24-2014, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post

No, its inverse telecined to 24p, unless you have a really bad TV.

If you have a smart TV with a 120 Hz refresh rate, it could be capable of performing IVTC, but not all sets can.
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I can frame step any 24p content broadcast on 1080i (or 720p for that matter), and clearly see a 2:3 pattern.

You wouldn't see a 2:3 pattern of combed/progressive frames unless the content was still interlaced and the duplicate frames were still present, meaning the footage was 30 fps, not 24 fps.
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And I see 60 unique frames on live TV from 1080i, not 30.

This would indicate the same thing. You're seeing interlaced output that gives the illusion of extra frames, as 1080i60 by definition has only 30 frames' worth of progressive content once it has been deinterlaced.
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

Assuming the interlaced video was properly telecined, I would tend to agree, although that is sadly often not the case.

How so? Explain yourself.

I inverse telecine 2:3 pulldown 1080i video pretty much every day and have yet to run into issues where the 2:3 pulldown was done incorrectly. I get great 1080p23.976 video as a result.

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Old 01-24-2014, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lobosrul View Post

And I see 60 unique frames on live TV from 1080i, not 30.

That is your TV, not the actual content. Technical disclosure: the frame rate is really 29.97 for 1080i and 59.94 for 720p.

if you were to record the 1080i broadcast of a scripted drama and view it in a video editing program, which I do on a daily basis, when you step through the video you can see the 2:3 pulldown pattern as 2 frames of mixed images followed by 3 frames of single images.

I do not know of any scripted show that is shot at anything but 23.976. Most comedies are shot 1080p23.976 as well. Both are shot at true 23.976 or 1080i recordings using psf (progressive segmented frame).

IVTC of 2:3 pulldown source is extremely easy.

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Old 01-24-2014, 04:24 PM
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When NBC ran The Sound of Music Live! for the first time, the fields lined up correctly and allowed the progressive frames to be reconstructed through field matching without deinterlacing (because there was no combing). When NBC ran it for the second time, they improperly decimated the video to speed up the production to make room for more commercials, and this resulted in the fields no longer matching, which meant that the video needed deinterlacing to avoid combing.

Deinterlaced video certainly looks better than combed video, but it is technically lower quality than video that hasn't been deinterlaced, as deinterlacing requires either interpolation or blending to remove the combing. Interpolating is the same type of process used to upscale an image, so the pixels in the deinterlaced areas of an image don't contain the full detail that they would if they had been reconstructed successfully without needing "repairs".

In my experience, it's rare to find an interlaced video whose progressive frames can be reconstructed solely through field matching, sparing the need for deinterlacing. Most interlaced videos display at least some degree of combing that requires repairing.
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Old 01-24-2014, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post

[Furthermore, most dramas are recorded at the film rate of 24 frames/sec and only use duplicate frames to reach 30 frames/sec for the purposes of making conversion to 1080i60 easy,

Sorry, but duplicate frames are not used for OTA broadcasts. The 2:3 pulldown method is used.

That said, I have recorded some on-demand material (only movies) where duplicate frames were used, i.e., four movie frames were placed onto 4 video frames and the 4th movie frame was repeated onto the 5th video frame.

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