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post #91 of 148 Old 07-15-2014, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post
The 50th anniversary special of Doctor Who, done in 3D.
Ah - Doctor Who is normally shot on Sony F65 or F35 cameras - as is a lot of BBC Wales produced drama. Didn't know that the 3D stuff was shot on Red.

The Swedish and British "Wallander" productions were shot on Red (the Swedish production switched from Super 16 after seeing how well Red worked on the first UK series.)

Arri'a Alexa seems to be the most common electronic acquisition system for drama these days in the UK, unless you are shooting with conventional camcorders (as lower end productions may still do).

Arri's Almira is getting a lot of interest for documentary and factual production. (I know at least one natural history camera op who has invested in one)
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post #92 of 148 Old 07-15-2014, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Aleron Ives View Post
People still say that they "tape" TV broadcasts, even though DVRs do not contain any videotape in them, either. People use incorrect terminology all the time, and trying to correct them is to fight a losing battle.
Ya, that is another one. The talking heads for a local station's news bounce around between filmed, taped and video.

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post #93 of 148 Old 07-15-2014, 11:48 AM
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Ah - Doctor Who is normally shot on Sony F65 or F35 cameras - as is a lot of BBC Wales produced drama. Didn't know that the 3D stuff was shot on Red.
Was pointed out in the Blu-ray extras. Watching the BTS on set videos, one can see that a lot of it was shot the normal 2D way. But, you could see some sets that had the RED 3D setup.

I do not know what resolution was used. It would be cool if the master was 5K.

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post #94 of 148 Old 07-15-2014, 03:40 PM
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Ya, that is another one. The talking heads for a local station's news bounce around between filmed, taped and video.
I always prefer "shoot" and "shot" when talking about producing content. You can shoot live, you can shoot tape, you can shoot film, you can shoot pre-recorded. I dislike "taped", "recorded" or "filmed" used incorrectly.
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post #95 of 148 Old 07-16-2014, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
I always prefer "shoot" and "shot" when talking about producing content. You can shoot live, you can shoot tape, you can shoot film, you can shoot pre-recorded. I dislike "taped", "recorded" or "filmed" used incorrectly.
Sorry, I meant the talking head's description of viewer contributed content or third party content, not content produced by the station.

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post #96 of 148 Old 07-16-2014, 05:11 PM
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Ah - Doctor Who is normally shot on Sony F65 or F35 cameras - as is a lot of BBC Wales produced drama. Didn't know that the 3D stuff was shot on Red.

The Swedish and British "Wallander" productions were shot on Red (the Swedish production switched from Super 16 after seeing how well Red worked on the first UK series.)

Arri'a Alexa seems to be the most common electronic acquisition system for drama these days in the UK, unless you are shooting with conventional camcorders (as lower end productions may still do).

Arri's Almira is getting a lot of interest for documentary and factual production. (I know at least one natural history camera op who has invested in one)
Since Dr. Who is not on my watch list, i didn't know it was done in 3D at all. And for a TV production it sounds expensive to use RED camera's versus a post production company to convert to 3D. And the way the Consumer Electronics suppliers killed consumer 3D, i didn't think any new 3D TV content was being produced.
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post #97 of 148 Old 07-16-2014, 05:13 PM
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These two pictures have been well circulated, but they give the best example of the formats and how they work. As you can see you cut the sides of the content off to remove the black bars. For me i would rather have the black bars and the content as it was made to be seen.
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File Type: png cropping 5.png (147.4 KB, 13 views)
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post #98 of 148 Old 07-16-2014, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
Oh, that's a sore subject. Technicolor, Deluxe, and all the other post houses have laid off hundreds of people in the last 6-7 years -- many of them digital employees. And that's after the 600+ people who made up the film lab people. When an economic shake-out that big happens, it hurts everybody.

PBS is in there, too (just to get back to the original subject), and I again feel that the reason why we see some PBS shows aired in the wrong aspect ratios is that they have no money for an adequate staff. I suspect for at least half the broadcast day, you'd be lucky if there's more than 2 or 3 people in the entire building, basically maintaining the computers. Nobody's watching the pictures or listening to the sound.


When I was working on the 2004 2K mastering of Star Wars at ILM, they had me watch George's personal Tech IB print of the movie in the Stag Theater. This was in C Building in the Kerner Optical Building (which was the code-name for ILM in San Rafael on Kerner Blvd.), just down the hall from the Pogle color-correction room. So I have seen the film. In this case, I think the digital version solved quite a few photochemical problems they weren't able to fix with the 1997 version, but like everybody else, I continue to hope that they'll go back and remaster the original theatrical versions someday. And it is possible; they just have to want to spend the time and money to do it. The pieces still exist in some form.

As to "let's start the film": I've been on many all-digital sets where the director yells "roll film!" to start the process for each scene. And the old line "check the gate!" after a scene is finished still holds for some old-school stalwarts, even though there's no real "gate" to check.
That reminds me of a call out one time last year when a local multiplex had four screens that would not fire up. Of course the problem turned out to be expired KDM keys, as this theater was purchased by someone who hand never owned one before, and i was the one who remodeled and updated everything in it, with his wife picking the colors, when i was asked by the very young female manager what the problem had been, joking i said "The film got caught in the gate." And her response, "OK, we will open the gates more so it will not happen again." In such a commanding voice.....

I was hopeful for a original remastering of Star Wars myself, even more so since Disney picked up ILM, Skywalker sound and LucasFilm, but, i have been told, they are experiencing the hard truth, that no matter what, it takes 10 years to get 3 Star Wars films out there, and consumes every available resource to do it.

I remember PBS showing the behind the scenes of Star Wars in the late70's, maybe early 80's that started with a blue screen with white letters "Do not adjust your television, what you are seeing is how the movie was "Filmed" There is nothing wrong with your Television set." Funny they had to put stuff like that up back then.
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post #99 of 148 Old 07-16-2014, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
Since Dr. Who is not on my watch list, i didn't know it was done in 3D at all. And for a TV production it sounds expensive to use RED camera's versus a post production company to convert to 3D. And the way the Consumer Electronics suppliers killed consumer 3D, i didn't think any new 3D TV content was being produced.
It was a one-off thing for Doctor Who, as it was the 50th anniversary special that aired around the world at the same time on TV and in movie theaters. It made lots of money in the theaters, which should have offset the cost for the scenes that were shot in real 3D.

The BBC have indeed stopped producing 3D content and AFAIK, the Doctor Who special was the last. I also believe that the 3D channel is also no more.

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post #100 of 148 Old 07-16-2014, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
These two pictures have been well circulated, but they give the best example of the formats and how they work. As you can see you cut the sides of the content off to remove the black bars. For me i would rather have the black bars and the content as it was made to be seen.
There is no argument that movies should be displayed in the OAR. I certainly want movies that way on Blu-ray and AFAIK, it is only done that way.

But, the original talk was about PBS, and other TV networks, in that they don't shoot content in anything but 16:9 for their HD channels. Except for the PBS news and information shows, everything else is produced by third parties (PBS affiliates are third parties), or in cooperation with third parties (like the BBC, or ITV, etc.).

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post #101 of 148 Old 07-16-2014, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
I remember PBS showing the behind the scenes of Star Wars in the late70's, maybe early 80's that started with a blue screen with white letters "Do not adjust your television, what you are seeing is how the movie was "Filmed" There is nothing wrong with your Television set." Funny they had to put stuff like that up back then.
Which was a major reason why many DVDs were released in P&S and Anamorphic Widescreen versions because there were so many people who bitched about the movie not filling their 4:3 screens.

Funny how you really do not hear that complaint about 2;35:1, or whatever ratio was used, not filling their 16:9 HD screens. But, many those people are zooming their sets and personally cutting off the sides. Ugh!

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post #102 of 148 Old 07-17-2014, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by CinemaAndy View Post
I was hopeful for a original remastering of Star Wars myself, even more so since Disney picked up ILM, Skywalker sound and LucasFilm, but, i have been told, they are experiencing the hard truth, that no matter what, it takes 10 years to get 3 Star Wars films out there, and consumes every available resource to do it.
It's not just the resources. Fox owns the right to the first three for X number of years, and it'll take awhile for those rights to revert back to Disney. What is a possibility is for Fox and Disney to do a deal where all the old Star Wars films would be remastered and re-released in cooperation between the studios, but it would take a lot of negotiating for that to happen. I suspect if Disney were to foot the bill, Fox would agree to split the money... but I don't know the specifics of the contracts and royalties.

BTW, it's annoying how many cable stations also commit the heinous mistake of fattenizing so many programs. I just discovered that DirecTV only has a standard-def feed of the Sundance Channel, and that apparently is all fattenized. (At least, that's the way it gets hosed out of my receiver.) Standard def 16x9 does exist -- I actually mastered quite a few TV shows in this format, back in the day -- but I think cable companies are very nervous about it. It's absolutely incredible the number of different ways a show can be technically screwed up in broadcast, when you add together frame rates, sound mixes, aspect ratios, and resolutions.
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post #103 of 148 Old 07-17-2014, 01:40 AM
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Since Dr. Who is not on my watch list, i didn't know it was done in 3D at all. And for a TV production it sounds expensive to use RED camera's versus a post production company to convert to 3D. And the way the Consumer Electronics suppliers killed consumer 3D, i didn't think any new 3D TV content was being produced.
The BBC ran a small 3D trial - shooting full 3D versions of "Strictly Come Dancing" (aka "Dancing with the Stars"), taking part in the 3D trial of Wimbledon coverage, shot the odd football and/or rugby game in 3D (or took part in a trial with others), shot the odd natural history project and the 50th anniversary of Doctor Who. They also showed the Olympic ceremonies in 3D, as well as daily highlights.

The project has now finished - and wasn't done on a huge scale. 3D content was made available via Red Button (our interactive TV system that allows alternative video streams to be accessed), on the BBC's "BBC HD" channel (which was a "Best of BBC" HD content outlet originally for content across all BBC channels which has since closed since the BBC launched HD versions of all of its channels as simulcasts), and via the iPlayer (think Hulu for the BBC) online catch-up service (which used 720/50p TAB rather than 1080/50i SBS used on other outlets. It was the first time 50p has been used rather than 25p for online services by the BBC I think)
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post #104 of 148 Old 07-17-2014, 01:43 AM
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The BBC have indeed stopped producing 3D content and AFAIK, the Doctor Who special was the last. I also believe that the 3D channel is also no more.
There was no 3D channel. 3D content was broadcast using existing outlets (Red Button, BBC HD, iPlayer etc.)
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post #105 of 148 Old 07-17-2014, 01:48 AM
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Which was a major reason why many DVDs were released in P&S and Anamorphic Widescreen versions because there were so many people who bitched about the movie not filling their 4:3 screens.
The BBC used to get lots of complaints when they showed movies in letterbox in the 80s, with people complaining that their TV screen wasn't filled and the picture was too small. As part of the trials for 16:9 production (which were - in some cases - part of a Europe-wide 16:9 action plan to shift from 4:3 to 16:9 production), the BBC decided to 'experiment' on the audience. One Saturday night, long before widescreen production was routine, and a long time before 16:9 broadcasting was available and when all outlets were 4:3 analogue, the BBC shot an entire Saturday night of programmes so that they could be broadcast in 14:9 letterbox (which is a compromise where you lose the left and right edges of 16:9 content, but only then get thing black bars top and bottom). They broadcast the entire saturday line-up in 14:9 and waited for the complaints. There were very few.

The BBC thus decided to broadcast in-house and BBC commissioned 16:9 content in 14:9 whenever possible. The one exception remained Sport, which was almost always broadcast 4:3 centre-cut on 4:3 outlets. Movies usually remained full 16:9 letterbox. 14:9 was also used in quite a few other countries (and is often seen as a setting in ARCs - Aspect Ratio Converters) - but I don't think the US broadcasters used it much. (Though I suspect PBS showed some 14:9 letterboxed BBC and ITV shows in some cases, particularly if they couldn't get a 16:9 SD master)
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post #106 of 148 Old 07-17-2014, 02:50 AM
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One of my favourite UK miniseries, Ultraviolet, happens to be 14:9.
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post #107 of 148 Old 07-17-2014, 02:57 AM
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There was no 3D channel. 3D content was broadcast using existing outlets (Red Button, BBC HD, iPlayer etc.)
Thanks. I forgot about that.

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post #108 of 148 Old 07-17-2014, 03:02 AM
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The BBC thus decided to broadcast in-house and BBC commissioned 16:9 content in 14:9 whenever possible. The one exception remained Sport, which was almost always broadcast 4:3 centre-cut on 4:3 outlets. Movies usually remained full 16:9 letterbox. 14:9 was also used in quite a few other countries (and is often seen as a setting in ARCs - Aspect Ratio Converters) - but I don't think the US broadcasters used it much. (Though I suspect PBS showed some 14:9 letterboxed BBC and ITV shows in some cases, particularly if they couldn't get a 16:9 SD master)
I've seen 14:9 content on my friend's TV. I've never seen 14:9 content on the main OTA channels here in the states. Doesn't mean that it didn't happen. As for stuff aired on PBS, there is a lot I haven't seen.

What a mess this all is.

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post #109 of 148 Old 07-17-2014, 03:04 AM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
The BBC used to get lots of complaints when they showed movies in letterbox in the 80s, with people complaining that their TV screen wasn't filled and the picture was too small. As part of the trials for 16:9 production (which were - in some cases - part of a Europe-wide 16:9 action plan to shift from 4:3 to 16:9 production), the BBC decided to 'experiment' on the audience. One Saturday night, long before widescreen production was routine, and a long time before 16:9 broadcasting was available and when all outlets were 4:3 analogue, the BBC shot an entire Saturday night of programmes so that they could be broadcast in 14:9 letterbox (which is a compromise where you lose the left and right edges of 16:9 content, but only then get thing black bars top and bottom). They broadcast the entire saturday line-up in 14:9 and waited for the complaints. There were very few.

The BBC thus decided to broadcast in-house and BBC commissioned 16:9 content in 14:9 whenever possible. The one exception remained Sport, which was almost always broadcast 4:3 centre-cut on 4:3 outlets. Movies usually remained full 16:9 letterbox. 14:9 was also used in quite a few other countries (and is often seen as a setting in ARCs - Aspect Ratio Converters) - but I don't think the US broadcasters used it much. (Though I suspect PBS showed some 14:9 letterboxed BBC and ITV shows in some cases, particularly if they couldn't get a 16:9 SD master)
Marc will have to back me up here, but i think ABC was the first network here in the USA to Show "cinema widescreen" format for the Saturday cinema to TV movies. I hated this, yes it was very small on my 23 inch 4:3 RCA. They stopped doing this for awhile, then went digital and this was even worse. Those first gen flat panels loved the sucker consumer, and i was one, and i found out the hard way that not all flat screens were HD TV's. I had one of the first gen 32 inch RCA panel with a whopping odd ball 1120x680 or something like that, it was not a "true" HDTV. When commercials came on the picture would have black bars on all four sizes, some commercial's would be about the same size as a iPad today. When the show would come back on the volume would blow your ears out and slowly adjust back down. It took an act of congress to get stable program and commercial sound levels. I can think of so much stuff TV just did wrong on all levels. Like were i am at, near Houston, TX there is still local commercials from the early 90's showing, the sound of the commercial in digital makes it sound like your TV is underwater. I know they take money were they get it, but seriously, if a new car dealership can film there commercials in 1920x1080P, every one should be able to. The small screen is very forgiving compared to the theaters screenings.

Myself i thought my local PBS station was going dark in 2009. As they were only on air 5 hours a day, from 4pm to 9pm then the test pattern was the rest of the time. I heard they received numerous super grants and started broadcasting more, and sold access to there antenna to i think it was WB, now CW or something, to use the structure to mount there antenna, or how ever they did it and as well they sold AT&T usage rights for cell service to be installed on there antenna structure. I think they have 3 or 4 people in the studio, and i think 3 are managers, and they get help form the other networks from time to time i was told. CSPAN still hold's the record for worse USA broadcast network, yep. Only on CSPAN can you see dead people giving "current" daily news updates. Or maybe it's the local Houston City Council meetings, they always start off with a picture and no sound or sound and no picture and mysteriously fade from color to black and white and sometimes back. Then the camera goes from out of focus to zoomed in on the floor or ceiling or the building across the street thru the window. Fascinating.
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post #110 of 148 Old 07-18-2014, 03:46 AM
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Was pointed out in the Blu-ray extras. Watching the BTS on set videos, one can see that a lot of it was shot the normal 2D way. But, you could see some sets that had the RED 3D setup.

I do not know what resolution was used. It would be cool if the master was 5K.
It's not RED (at least for the majority, some hi speed stuff was shot RED), it was shot on the Arri Alexa like the regular series has been since 2012 (albeit they were using the Arri Alexa M for 3D due to the split head units).

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post #111 of 148 Old 07-18-2014, 04:15 AM
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It's not RED (at least for the majority, some hi speed stuff was shot RED), it was shot on the Arri Alexa like the regular series has been since 2012 (albeit they were using the Arri Alexa M for 3D due to the split head units).
Now I'm going to have to go back and watch the extras again, as I'm sure the person being interviewed said RED. I hope I didn't mis-hear what was said.

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post #112 of 148 Old 07-18-2014, 12:20 PM
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Marc will have to back me up here, but i think ABC was the first network here in the USA to Show "cinema widescreen" format for the Saturday cinema to TV movies. I hated this, yes it was very small on my 23 inch 4:3 RCA.
ABC showed "Minority Report" in OAR but then that is Spielberg who I've heard contractually demands his films be shown OAR. Didn't look so small on my 53" set.
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post #113 of 148 Old 07-18-2014, 02:00 PM
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ABC showed "Minority Report" in OAR but then that is Spielberg who I've heard contractually demands his films be shown OAR. Didn't look so small on my 53" set.
What i was referring to was long before "Minority Report".
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post #114 of 148 Old 07-18-2014, 03:25 PM
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It's not RED (at least for the majority, some hi speed stuff was shot RED), it was shot on the Arri Alexa like the regular series has been since 2012 (albeit they were using the Arri Alexa M for 3D due to the split head units).

Steve
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I'm not imagining that Cardiff shot on F35/F65 am I?
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post #115 of 148 Old 07-18-2014, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by sneals2000 View Post
You'll know Steve!

I'm not imagining that Cardiff shot on F35/F65 am I?
Dunno about the F65 but series five and six were shot on the F35 (with the exception of the Utah shoot for S6 which was shot on the Alexa -- the picture quality difference is quite visible).

I heard a rumour it was the availability (or lack of!) of tape that caused the switch

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post #116 of 148 Old 07-18-2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveBagley View Post
Dunno about the F65 but series five and six were shot on the F35 (with the exception of the Utah shoot for S6 which was shot on the Alexa -- the picture quality difference is quite visible).

I heard a rumour it was the availability (or lack of!) of tape that caused the switch

Steve
That would make sense. I remember having to recycle SR or drop down to HD Cam (ugh) during the shortage caused by the horrific earthquake and tsunami in Japan.

*** EDIT : I remember now - it was a mix of F23 and F35 I remember reading that Cardiff had. I'd got that mixed up to F35 and F65. AIUI the F23 is a 2/3" 3CCD job, whilst the F35 is a larger, single-sensor camera more beloved by drama teams for the shallow DoF ***
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post #117 of 148 Old 07-18-2014, 05:11 PM
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Think Downton is (or was) shot on the Arri D21 - which has a Super 35 sensor. However I think they shoot for 16:9 ratio. I've never seen it wider than 16:9.
No, the first few episodes were on D21, then replaced with Alexa. D21 is very much "8 years ago" at this point.

On the other hand, it is a nostalgic show... Though there's no nostalgia for old, outdated camera chips. It's always been at 16x9, though there is a deluxe version of the Alexa with a full-frame 35mm chip, essentially 1.33, so that it gives a similar effect to film when you shoot with anamorphic scope lenses (which nobody does for TV).
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post #118 of 148 Old 07-18-2014, 05:57 PM
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What really drove me to complain was watching a Ken Burns series called "The War" about WW-II last night. This program had a lot of WW-II era newsreel film in it that I'm sure was made in 3:4 aspect- as nearly everything was in the 1940s- but it is stretched out full width of the screen and you can just tell by looking that the top and bottom is cropped. Sometimes you can't even see the tops of the person's head. No photographer would have made it that way.
re tubetwiter

Just tried The War on Netflix /Roku they send it in 16:9 1080p Super HD . The old footage understandably *sometimes * looks soft and or grainy as does some of the original 16 mm footage . Makes me wonder if much of it was better left alone '

It looks like it was murdered sometimes , film grain even on the modern interview footage is excessive IMO but I guess thats to be expected with such old footage (or more likely telicine video footage by 2007 ? ) not knowing what they had to work with . ? I agree much of it looks unnatural but more pan and scanned and cropped maybe if you could even do that with old film ? than stretched in 16:9 . I'm no expert on that stuff and just guessing but much of it looks cropped . Not having watched much of the series yet these are brief impressions . In any event it certainly looks very worth watching . I'm doing just that now on Sony 40" LED next to me !.

Edit *some parts * (not much ) are pillar boxed with black bars and appear to be 4:3 over 16.9 so far in ep 1.
good program all in all and would be a good history lesson to the X Y gen. folks not the usual scripted reality TV that's prevalent now .

Coincidentally I have that on my playlist . Episode guide is here http://www.canistream.it/tv/series/80620/the-war

Also available on Amazon Prime in 16:9 HD free to prime members or $7.99 per digital HD episode rental or $40.00 a season to non members .

I compared the Roku Super HD stream and the Roku Amazon prime HD stream seems like the Netflix stream looks a little better and less grainy on the modern interview footage also but that is a very brief impression usually Amazon HD /Roku is fine .

Both services have season 1 probably there is only one season because ep 7 ends in 1945 .

Both should be 16:9 on PC stream also but on *other than win 8.1 with IE 11 * it would top out ofc at 720p .

I'm sure as usual for a Ken Burns thing it will be good !

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post #119 of 148 Old 07-18-2014, 06:51 PM
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I noticed that Netflix has this available for streaming and on DVD. It would be interesting to see if the streams or DVDs show the same disregard for OAR as you saw from the station.

I had seen some documentaries on DVD and TV that would stretch or crop to match the overall aspect ratio of the documentary and disregard the OAR of the footage or photos they had included in the documentary. (CNN's The Sixties had done this, I noticed.) If Ken Burns had likewise disregarded the OAR of included material so the entire documentary would be the same aspect ratio (my money is on this), then the PBS station broadcasting the documentary would just broadcast what they have, distorted and cropped images and all. But it is sad that a director working for PBS would do this instead of using pillar bars or other filler content on the sides so original images could be preserved in their entirety.

But then 7 years ago there were fewer HDTVs, smaller average TV sizes, and fewer people who would tolerate pillar bars. But I am not that hopeful after seeing this year's The Sixties on CNN do some nasty cropping.
re tubetwister

That's my guess also PBS might have just broadcast what they had. .Some of their modern 16:9 shows have
real good image quality .

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post #120 of 148 Old 07-19-2014, 01:47 AM
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Ken Burns is probably one of the best for his style of documentaries. I like his style, that he tells it from both side and you make up your mind. And i also like the fact that he goes into great detail about the subject, i have his entire collection and this is true fro all of them.

When i first saw this, i was thumbing through the channels and came in about 15 minutes into the first episode airing on my local PBS, so to DVR it and the other 6 went.

Some people like to confuse TV with old academy cinema ratio. They are close, but still different. TV is 1.33:1, or more commonly called 4:3, cinema academy aspect is 1.375:1, more commonly called academy. As i am sure you know, those old black and white news reels were showed in cinemas across the world, as TV back then was a luxury for the rich and not every area had antennae.

No TV and academy are not huge difference, but enough that it probably gives a headache to someone. With those old WW2 news reels, there is no telling how many times it was copied or transferred before Ken Burns used them.

When i watched it on my 16:9 TV i did OK. The interviews filled the screens and looked normal, the B&W reels had black bars on the sides and small black bars on the top and bottom, that did not bother me, it just showed they were trying to preserve the OAR of the originals.

I have always wondered if those old B&W reels were all 16MM, or the 9.5MM that UK and France used. That has to explain the quality of those old news reels.

I wish they would all just show OAR and leave the pan and scan or cropped out of the process. SOmetimes it butcheres a movie or documentary.

I wish i could remember what i was watching, it was a documentary on PBS, one of the older NOVA 70's ones, but you could see the boom mike in every shot, as well as glimpses of the lens of the other cameras to the side of the picture. I guess they left the gate off when they did that conversion.
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