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post #91 of 201 Old 08-20-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post
I think we both know that this show is far closer to Downton Abbey than it is to The Sopranos.
So there is some unwritten law that shows that are "closer" to each other must be produced on TV in similar styles? If there was an unwritten law, it should say exactly the opposite -- that shows "closer" in terms of genre or content should look and feel very different from each other.

I think it's great we live in a world where showrunners have the freedom to make the show they want, and audiences have the choice to watch their shows, or find something more to their taste.
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post #92 of 201 Old 08-20-2014, 10:29 AM
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I don't have Starz so I haven't seen the show. I've also not read the books, but my sister has, and loves them. She hates romance novels, by her own admission, but thinks the books overcome the limitations of the genre because the writing is so good. And she was a huge fan of BSG and Carnivale so she was excited by Moore being the one doing it. Her thoughts: Although she was thrilled by the pilot she admits the nudity seemed out of place. So there is one vote for Josh's opinion. She also was slightly disappointed in the 2nd episode because it differs from the books in ways she saw no need to. After the pilot she was comparing this to GoT, now she isn't so sure.


I'm following this thread because I'm trying to decide if Outlander is worth seeing. So far I'm on the fence. But in the midst of all the raves it is good to have Josh's dissenting opinion. It seems like a lot of responses to his posts are purposely misreading his meaning and veering close to personal attacks on him. That makes me think he has a valid point.

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post #93 of 201 Old 08-20-2014, 11:15 AM
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I don't have Starz so I haven't seen the show. I've also not read the books, but my sister has, and loves them. She hates romance novels, by her own admission, but thinks the books overcome the limitations of the genre because the writing is so good. And she was a huge fan of BSG and Carnivale so she was excited by Moore being the one doing it. Her thoughts: Although she was thrilled by the pilot she admits the nudity seemed out of place. So there is one vote for Josh's opinion. She also was slightly disappointed in the 2nd episode because it differs from the books in ways she saw no need to. After the pilot she was comparing this to GoT, now she isn't so sure.


I'm following this thread because I'm trying to decide if Outlander is worth seeing. So far I'm on the fence. But in the midst of all the raves it is good to have Josh's dissenting opinion. It seems like a lot of responses to his posts are purposely misreading his meaning and veering close to personal attacks on him. That makes me think he has a valid point.
While Moore did write a few episodes and produced several more, Carnivale was a Daniel Knauf creation.
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post #94 of 201 Old 08-20-2014, 11:33 AM
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So there is some unwritten law that shows that are "closer" to each other must be produced on TV in similar styles? If there was an unwritten law, it should say exactly the opposite -- that shows "closer" in terms of genre or content should look and feel very different from each other.

I think it's great we live in a world where showrunners have the freedom to make the show they want, and audiences have the choice to watch their shows, or find something more to their taste.
Listen, here's what it comes down to: I feel that the nudity in this series is out-of-place and unnecessary. You don't. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

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post #95 of 201 Old 08-20-2014, 01:27 PM
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I gotta jump into the whole nudity debate. I think that it's strange that anyone would call out nudity or sex in a show like this. Nudity and sex are part of the every day lives of most people! I bet everyone reading this was naked at least once today already. Many readers have had sex recently too. It happens!

Just like the violence that's been depicted in the show, nudity and sex happen too. I don't see any rational reason why someone would say "that nudity was superfluous" and not agree that the violence was too. or how about shots of them riding down the road looking at scenery? Is that not equally superfluous? "No," you say, because seeing them talk about the history of the region, or in conflict with others, is integral to the story. Well guess what? Sex and nudity and integral to human behavior and often to a person's relationships with others too.

The only reason I can see anyone complaining about superfluous nudity is if they are not comfortable with it themselves. You want superfluous nudity? Watch Spartacus. Watch GoT. This show is not using it superfluously. This show is doing a fine job of showing everything about daily life of people in the 1900s and 1700s without going overboard on any of it. So far, anyway.
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post #96 of 201 Old 08-20-2014, 01:31 PM
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While Moore did write a few episodes and produced several more, Carnivale was a Daniel Knauf creation.

I knew that but it wasn't relevant. She was aware of who Moore was from Carnavale and BSG, which is why I mentioned it.

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post #97 of 201 Old 08-20-2014, 01:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm following this thread because I'm trying to decide if Outlander is worth seeing. So far I'm on the fence. But in the midst of all the raves it is good to have Josh's dissenting opinion. It seems like a lot of responses to his posts are purposely misreading his meaning and veering close to personal attacks on him. That makes me think he has a valid point.
1) No, we're quite clear on his meaning. If you read the posts in question, you'll find his points refuted both in quantity of said scenes and purpose & validity to the plotline.
2) There aren't, nor will there be, any personal attacks. Just a suggestion that maybe this isn't the show for him since he's seeing things that aren't really there.
3) He doesn't. Not on this issue. You should watch and see for yourself. Then, if you find yourself agreeing with him, his point will become valid to you.
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post #98 of 201 Old 08-20-2014, 01:56 PM
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I have to agree 100% with Archiguy. Watch the show first, then decide for yourself.

I'm a 'hooker' and a knitter. I guess that makes me bi-stitchual :).
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post #99 of 201 Old 08-20-2014, 02:00 PM
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I knew that but it wasn't relevant. She was aware of who Moore was from Carnavale and BSG, which is why I mentioned it.
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post #100 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 09:20 AM
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I gotta jump into the whole nudity debate. I think that it's strange that anyone would call out nudity or sex in a show like this. Nudity and sex are part of the every day lives of most people! I bet everyone reading this was naked at least once today already. Many readers have had sex recently too. It happens!

Just like the violence that's been depicted in the show, nudity and sex happen too. I don't see any rational reason why someone would say "that nudity was superfluous" and not agree that the violence was too. or how about shots of them riding down the road looking at scenery? Is that not equally superfluous? "No," you say, because seeing them talk about the history of the region, or in conflict with others, is integral to the story. Well guess what? Sex and nudity and integral to human behavior and often to a person's relationships with others too.

The only reason I can see anyone complaining about superfluous nudity is if they are not comfortable with it themselves. You want superfluous nudity? Watch Spartacus. Watch GoT. This show is not using it superfluously. This show is doing a fine job of showing everything about daily life of people in the 1900s and 1700s without going overboard on any of it. So far, anyway.
If the intent is to depict the real everyday lives of people as they would actually happen, why are there no scenes of characters going to the bathroom? Given the period setting, I should expect a very graphic and explicit scene of Jamie squatting and taking a dump in the woods, a big lumpy brown log slowly emerging from between his butt cheeks as he strains to squeeze it out.

Oh, wait, THAT would be superfluous? I see.

In narrative storytelling, there are conventions that dictate what human actions and activity are important to tell the story and what actions and activity are not important to tell the story. The nature of the story and the way it is otherwise told will dictate what gets included and what doesn't.

In my opinion, the nudity in this show feels superfluous to the story being told. The producers could easily cut all the nudity out and it would make no difference to the story. Especially in the pilot episode, the sex scenes jarred very badly with the Merchant-Ivory style period piece that was set up in the first half.

There's more justification for nudity once the story transitioned to the rowdy 18th Century setting, but the way the second episode actually played out, Claire's nude scene still felt to me like a gratuitous "Hey, look, boobies!" moment. Why did we need to see her naked just to let us know that she changed her clothes?

I watch plenty of other premium-channel series that regularly feature nudity: Game of Thrones, True Blood, Penny Dreadful, Masters of Sex, etc. In all of those, the nudity feels like an organic part of the stories being told. In this one, it doesn't. (Again, in my opinion.) That's all this debate is about.
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post #101 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 09:37 AM
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In narrative storytelling, there are conventions that dictate what human actions and activity are important to tell the story and what actions and activity are not important to tell the story. The nature of the story and the way it is otherwise told will dictate what gets included and what doesn't.
I'd say this quote right here sums up the difference of opinion here. We simply believe in different conventions.

I'd rather have more sex & nudity and less gore & violence in storytelling, and in life for that matter.

Anyway, happy to disagree, and overall I still am enjoying this show.
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post #102 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 09:48 AM
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[QUOTE=Josh Z;26760697]If the intent is to depict the real everyday lives of people as they would actually happen, why are there no scenes of characters going to the bathroom? Given the period setting, I should expect a very graphic and explicit scene of Jamie squatting and taking a dump in the woods, a big lumpy brown log slowly emerging from between his butt cheeks as he strains to squeeze it out.

/QUOTE]
That would really bring home the fact she was in a different time, wouldn't it?

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post #103 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 09:59 AM - Thread Starter
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How many dramatic films and television shows have graphic images of people taking a dump? Now, how many have scenes of people having sex? I see.

Both are activities real everyday people both do. Also eating. Yet unless the scene takes place at a dinner or a diner where the characters can interact and create dramatic tension, you seldom seeing them doing that either. In 6 seasons of '24' Jack Bauer was never seen doing anything involving the taking in or the subsequent elimination of food. He didn't actually have sex either, but did make time to kiss the occasional comely lass in between dispatching terrorists.

I humbly submit that sex is more important to dramatic narrative than other bodily functions, and depiction of it of more interest to the audience. But that's just me.
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post #104 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 10:01 AM
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I'd say this quote right here sums up the difference of opinion here. We simply believe in different conventions.

I'd rather have more sex & nudity and less gore & violence in storytelling, and in life for that matter.
But you'd agree that it depends on the type of story, wouldn't you? Even if you don't care for it, gore and violence in Game of Thrones makes sense. A super gory and violent murder/suicide storyline on Modern Family might seem a wee bit inappropriate, I think.

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post #105 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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But you'd agree that it depends on the type of story, wouldn't you? Even if you don't care for it, gore and violence in Game of Thrones makes sense. A super gory and violent murder/suicide storyline on Modern Family might seem a wee bit inappropriate, I think.
You keep making false arguments by trying to compare apples and oranges. Modern Family is ostensibly a comedy. Of course it's not going to have a violent murder storyline. But a show like this, given the subject matter, not having any sex or nudity would also seem jarringly out of place. Again, not to belabor the point, but if this show was on the Hallmark Channel, I suspect it would more to your liking.

Not mine, however. I like my bawdy, bodice-ripping period romances appropriately, well.... bawdy. And, far from being gratuitous, this show so far is straddling the line between chastity and purience, not favoring either.
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post #106 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 12:03 PM
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But you'd agree that it depends on the type of story, wouldn't you? Even if you don't care for it, gore and violence in Game of Thrones makes sense. A super gory and violent murder/suicide storyline on Modern Family might seem a wee bit inappropriate, I think.
Well this is a strange argument. Modern Family is a Thursday night family-oriented comedy on a national, federally-regulated channel. Of course they're not going to be gory or violent.

Outlander is a show for adults, on a private non-regulated channel, who produces such other shows as "Black Sails", "Spartacus" and "Da Vinci's Demons" to name a few. By your own logic, of course this show will have violence and nudity - that's the kind of show Starz produces. In fact, in two episodes we've seen some nudity and sex, which you can argue means the show it setting its own tone for what sex and nudity it will show, thereby by definition meaning what it's showing can't be superfluous. If the show had no nudity or sex for 8 episodes and then suddenly started using it, I think we'd all agree it's a strange and superfluous inclusion. But that's not what happened.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue your opinion - you're fully allowed to disagree. I just had to point out a flawed line of logic.
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post #107 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 12:16 PM
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Well this is a strange argument. Modern Family is a Thursday night family-oriented comedy on a national, federally-regulated channel. Of course they're not going to be gory or violent.
Outlander is a stately Masterpiece Theater period piece. Of course it won't have nudi... Whoa, hello boobies!

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Outlander is a show for adults, on a private non-regulated channel, who produces such other shows as "Black Sails", "Spartacus" and "Da Vinci's Demons" to name a few. By your own logic, of course this show will have violence and nudity - that's the kind of show Starz produces.
That's exactly my point. This show has nudity because it's on the Starz network, and every show on the Starz network must have nudity. Not because the nudity is fitting or necessary to the story.

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post #108 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 02:45 PM
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post #109 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Outlander is a stately Masterpiece Theater period piece. Of course it won't have nudi... Whoa, hello boobies!
This show is nothing like a "stately Masterpiece Theater piece". It is most assuredly not 'Downton Abby'. Not in tone, not in style, not in premise. You keep wanting to put it in that box because you think it would help validate your position about needless nudity. But it is a fundamentally different show on a different type of network.

I don't watch 'Downton Abby'. Never have. Not my thing. But I have friends who watch it and I've read a lot about it because it's quite popular for a PBS show and I watch other PBS shows. If 'Outlander' were like that, it wouldn't be my thing either.

But Downton is, apparently, your thing. Wonderful! Revel in it! But please stop coming on here and crapping on this show because you want it to be something it's not, on a network it's not.
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post #110 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 03:13 PM
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This show has nudity because it's on the Starz network, and every show on the Starz network must have nudity. Not because the nudity is fitting or necessary to the story.
Just like, Its not porn, its HBO (nsfw)

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post #111 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 07:05 PM
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I have not seen the show but I will weigh in anyway ☺. Sounds like the nudity is brief and it's by the lead. I don't have a problem with that. Just because as you say you can cut out the nudity and not affect the story (and obviously opinions differ on this claim) does not make it gratuitous. Gratuitous nudity for me is something like two guys involved in a criminal enterprise decide to plan their robbery in a loud strip joint where they have to scream over each other to be heard while naked bodies are paraded in front of them. Seems to me like this is a case of someone finding ANY nudity gratuitous. And that's fine. We all have different threshold of tolerance. But this isn't by any means an egregious example.

BTW, gratuitous nudity is a lot better than gratuitous violence.

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post #112 of 201 Old 08-21-2014, 08:33 PM
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I have not seen the show but I will weigh in anyway ☺. Sounds like the nudity is brief and it's by the lead. I don't have a problem with that. Just because as you say you can cut out the nudity and not affect the story (and obviously opinions differ on this claim) does not make it gratuitous. Gratuitous nudity for me is something like two guys involved in a criminal enterprise decide to plan their robbery in a loud strip joint where they have to scream over each other to be heard while naked bodies are paraded in front of them. Seems to me like this is a case of someone finding ANY nudity gratuitous. And that's fine. We all have different threshold of tolerance. But this isn't by any means an egregious example.

BTW, gratuitous nudity is a lot better than gratuitous violence.
I will go the reverse direction. What I find crazy is gratuitous clothing. You know when a couple is having sex and the girl is wearing a bra. I find it refreshing that they show people behaving LIKE WE REALLY DO.
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post #113 of 201 Old 08-22-2014, 10:05 AM
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This show is nothing like a "stately Masterpiece Theater piece". It is most assuredly not 'Downton Abby'. Not in tone, not in style, not in premise.
The first half of the premiere episode was very Downton Abbey-ish. And that's where the nudity first intruded.

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I will go the reverse direction. What I find crazy is gratuitous clothing. You know when a couple is having sex and the girl is wearing a bra.
That is a pet peeve of mine as well.

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post #114 of 201 Old 08-22-2014, 01:12 PM
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But travel into the past is a different animal and depends for its plausibility on the little-known, extremely weird world of quantum mechanics. Right now there doesn't seem to be any possibility of anything like that on the horizon that even our most brilliant scientists can see. Or on the other side of the universe, frankly.
I would like to see a time travel story where a way to travel to the past is discovered, but everybody forgets that in the Earth's travel around the Sun, and the Sun's travel around our spiral galaxy, and the galaxy's movement in the ever expanding universe, the Earth is never in the same place twice. So our heroes time travel but do not change position, and arrive in the empty vacuum of space because the Earth isn't there at that moment. That's how I imagine time travel really working.

I see the universe littered with the frozen drifting bodies of time travelers who forgot this.
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post #115 of 201 Old 08-22-2014, 01:18 PM
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Uh-oh!

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post #116 of 201 Old 08-25-2014, 09:06 AM
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Well, at the recommendation of a friend who watches regularly, I decided to give it a try and "binge watched" all three episodes over the weekend. Based on the last several dozen posts, I'm almost afraid to give my opinion, except to say "I'm in" (or would sure like to be).

I will be tuning in for the rest of the series.
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post #117 of 201 Old 08-26-2014, 08:32 PM
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That's exactly my point. This show has nudity because it's on the Starz network, and every show on the Starz network must have nudity. Not because the nudity is fitting or necessary to the story.
So, you watched a show on a network you knew had nudity, and then complained about it afterwards. That sounds rather like ordering a pizza that you knew had anchovies, then proceeding to eat it, then complaining about the presence of anchovies.
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Last edited by RobertR; 08-26-2014 at 08:45 PM.
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post #118 of 201 Old 08-28-2014, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by vfxproducer View Post
I would like to see a time travel story where a way to travel to the past is discovered, but everybody forgets that in the Earth's travel around the Sun, and the Sun's travel around our spiral galaxy, and the galaxy's movement in the ever expanding universe, the Earth is never in the same place twice. So our heroes time travel but do not change position, and arrive in the empty vacuum of space because the Earth isn't there at that moment. That's how I imagine time travel really working.

I see the universe littered with the frozen drifting bodies of time travelers who forgot this.
You would think if somebody was smart enough to invent time-travel would calculate the exact location in the future or the past. After all, space and time are connected.
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post #119 of 201 Old 08-31-2014, 05:24 PM
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I've only seen the first episode. I'm definitely looking forward to all of the spectacular superfluous nudity and a good story. Hopefully it will be on Netflix next year.
Here is an interview with one of the shows producers.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/liv...-claire-729063

Last edited by spike jones; 08-31-2014 at 05:37 PM.
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post #120 of 201 Old 08-31-2014, 05:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spike jones View Post
I've only seen the first episode. I'm definitely looking forward to all of the spectacular superfluous nudity, hopefully it will be on Netflix next year.
I am very sorry to have to tell you this, but this week's episode contained no nudity at all!

I'm sure one of us here will be shocked at this surprising development.
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