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post #1 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 12:48 AM - Thread Starter
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http://windowsmedia.com/9Series/Demo...p=VideoQuality

Download Windows MediaPlayer 9, then try this 1280x720p 24fps (5.1mbps) clip.

2.4Ghz processor suggested :(

My 1Ghz machine can only display 1 frame every 6 seconds.

They claim it encodes twice as small (per quality) as mpeg-4. I never saw decent video in mpeg-4 -- it always seemed to me to look much worse than mpeg-2 at the same bitrate.

They say they can fit an entire movie at 720p on a DVD. I am sure they can, but if it has more artifacting than regular DVDs I would not consider it unequivocally great. But it would be great for porn.
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post #2 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 01:51 AM
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I never saw decent video in mpeg-4 -- it always seemed to me to look much worse than mpeg-2 at the same bitrate.
You've got to be kidding... At the same bitrate as mpeg2, mpeg4 is complete overkill. Mpeg4 can achieve quality indistinguishable from mpeg2 in maybe 1/3 the bitrate (this would be about 3 CDs for an average DVD). But at this point, mpeg4 is only used for low-bitrate, net-based applications, which is probably why you've never seen a video in good quality on it.

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post #3 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 01:52 AM
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Plays fine on my 2.0Ghz P4 512MB box. Video : GF4 TI4400.

That said : this is not as good as actuall HD ATSC at 19.2mbps 720p/24. Almost there, but considering the degree of artifacting I see on my monitor I don't think this is quite it.

Haven't tried it on the big screen.

It is impressive that the bit rate is 5.1mbps.

Crank it up to 8 and I wonder waht we'd see? That'd still be an impressive gain in compression performance.
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post #4 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by zambaretzu
You've got to be kidding... At the same bitrate as mpeg2, mpeg4 is complete overkill. Mpeg4 can achieve quality indistinguishable from mpeg2 in maybe 1/3 the bitrate (this would be about 3 CDs for an average DVD). But at this point, mpeg4 is only used for low-bitrate, net-based applications, which is probably why you've never seen a video in good quality on it.
Yeah, net based applications or theater sourced shaky-cam pirate video.

Take clean content, use a good encoder (WMV9, DivX5) and you can get awesome results at very low bitrates compared to the source.
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post #5 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 04:25 AM
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At the same bitrate as mpeg2, mpeg4 is complete overkill. Mpeg4 can achieve quality indistinguishable from mpeg2 in maybe 1/3 the bitrate (this would be about 3 CDs for an average DVD).
Your 1/3 bit rate is a bit of an exaggeration, and MPEG4 only surpasses MPEG2 at lower resolutions and bit rates.

And MPEG4 does not compare favorably to WM9 at higher bit rates and specifically, HDTV resolutions. Microsoft has offered MPEG4 vs WM9 HDTV demonstrations, and they always show WM9 superior at comparable bit rates. Of course, WM9 also features 5 channel sound.

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But at this point, mpeg4 is only used for low-bitrate, net-based applications, which is probably why you've never seen a video in good quality on it.
Because that's what it's designed for. MPEG4 is specifically designed for low-bit rates and lower resolutions. It is not optimized for higher bit rates or higher resolutions. Indeed, industry tests show there is not much difference between MPEG4 and MPEG2 in the bandwidth required to attain a given quality level at HD resolutions.

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post #6 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by zambaretzu
You've got to be kidding... At the same bitrate as mpeg2, mpeg4 is complete overkill. Mpeg4 can achieve quality indistinguishable from mpeg2 in maybe 1/3 the bitrate (this would be about 3 CDs for an average DVD). But at this point, mpeg4 is only used for low-bitrate, net-based applications, which is probably why you've never seen a video in good quality on it.
What I mean is, I actually encoded video in mpeg-4 on two occasions at high-bitrates (over 5mbps) trying to get good quality and it always looked worse than mpeg-2.

Let's say we had 10mbps to play with (DVD rate). The goal was to fit HDTV onto a DVD. What would look best at this datarate?

Mpeg-2
Mpeg-4
WM9
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post #7 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 09:01 AM
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That may have been your problem. Maybe the Mpeg4 encoder you were using was not designed for high bitrate. Some really are only optimized for low bitrates so that when you go above a certain point you see no difference in quality at all.
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post #8 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 10:11 AM
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WOW just watched a clip and I was amazed. I saw some compression artifacts for sure but not a whole lot worse then what you see currently with MPEG2 and this was at 1/4 the bitrate. I really did look very good and even during the wave scenes with a lot of motion it held up. If they could impliment this into Directv or Dish we could see all channels in HDTV!
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post #9 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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That was at 5mbps. DirectTV must use much less than this for most channels. If DirectTV used 5mbps we would see DVD quality much of the time (which we certainly don't) . The porn channels on DirectTV look like they might be under 1mbps. Does anyone know for sure?
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post #10 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 11:14 AM
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Ran fine on my my machine. Looked really good, but still can't touch HD/1080i on my big screen:

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post #11 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jdiehl
Ran fine on my my machine. Looked really good, but still can't touch HD/1080i on my big screen:

Athlon XP 2000+
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Resolution looked great but still saw lots micro blocking. I have only watched on my 19" LCD computer monitor. Will try to watch on my projector tonight but my "old" HTPC probably will not be able to play. Would love to be able to compare the same clip in 1080i. Microsoft should make a 1080i version available for download in .ts format for comparison. Remember this is the system that Microsoft is pushing for HD-DVD. :( It is definitely not up to the task. I don't want HD-DVD to be inferior to HDTV which this clearly is. HD-DVD should equal or exceed HDTV in data rate.
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post #12 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 03:34 PM
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For its local SD channels, DirecTV currently uses in the range of 3Mbps. Dan Collins over on the DBS Forum reports that DirecTV will be using new hardware (or perhaps is now) that will offer near the same quality in about 2Mbps. This is how they are able to offer all those additional local channels. At CES, DirecTV announced that it would be adding locals for an additional 50 markets.

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post #13 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 03:44 PM
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Remember this is the system that Microsoft is pushing for HD-DVD. It is definitely not up to the task. I don't want HD-DVD to be inferior to HDTV which this clearly is. HD-DVD should equal or exceed HDTV in data rate
Microsoft is not pushing 5Mbps for HD-DVD. The 5Mbps was used because it makes the file a reasonable size to download, and also shows just what WM9 can do with such limited bandwidth. Microsoft certainly does not claim that 5Mbps WM9 offers comparable quality to 19.4Mbps MPEG2. I believe Microsoft claims savings of close to 50% at equivalent levels of quality when using the same source for encoding. This may be exaggerated somewhat, but WM9 is clearly superior to MPEG2/MPEG4 for HDTV.

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post #14 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by bfdtv
Microsoft is not pushing 5Mbps for HD-DVD. The 5Mbps was used because it makes the file a reasonable size to download, and also shows just what WM9 can do with such limited bandwidth. Microsoft certainly does not claim that 5Mbps WM9 offers comparable quality to 19.4Mbps MPEG2. I believe Microsoft claims savings of close to 50% at equivalent levels of quality when using the same source for encoding. This may be exaggerated somewhat, but WM9 is clearly superior to MPEG2/MPEG4 for HDTV.
Microsoft proposes that an HD-DVD can be developed quickly using many existing current DVD technologies. Rather than waiting on high data storage (Blue-Ray or Florescent MD) technologies.
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post #15 of 62 Old 01-11-2003, 08:48 PM
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Remember this is the system that Microsoft is pushing for HD-DVD. It is definitely not up to the task. I don't want HD-DVD to be inferior to HDTV which this clearly is. HD-DVD should equal or exceed HDTV in data rate
;)

As much as I sometimes rant about them my sympathies are with Microsoft in this case. I've posted various samples myself and am always torn between making something that looks the best and something that can actually be downloaded and played on the average forum member's machine and net connection.

And there are a couple other things to keep in mind on this:

1) It is not just the download speed or storage space that limits the bit rate. At any given resolution, if you increase the bit rate it makes it take a faster machine to be able to play it smoothly. And many of you can't already. This will be true for WM9 or my various Xvid samples.

2)The target of HD-DVD with WM9 almost certainly depends upon WM9 accelerated hardware playback support from the graphics card vendors. For the most part this is not available yet.

So you can see the compromises that still have to be made, hopefully only temporary ones.

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post #16 of 62 Old 01-12-2003, 07:47 AM
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hi,

well, guess there are a few things u must notice if u see this clip, trbarry said a couple of them.

First, i notice is only a clip which is remastering with the Microsoft Encoder 9 in High Definition Mode, just too show what it can be.
Second is, how good was the Source. If the Source isnt that good the remastert clip cant be better.
Third, the clip isnt record with a HD Camera, so a few percent off.
Well then its just 720p and how trbarry said the resolution is limited by how the clip is using....too download.

But i still agree with a few comments here, in this case there are better making Clips. The Water, the People all looks good, but if u take a look in the heaven u defently know whats going on. :) :confused:



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post #17 of 62 Old 02-14-2003, 11:31 AM
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Movie industry has managed to stuff a huge stopper down the throat of HD-DVD. Blue laser players have been shown, but content providers say they'd boycot it unless a satisfactory copy prot. mech. is put in place. The problem is, there is no such thing as satisfactory copy protection. Any mechanism will eventually be broken. But so what, are DVD sales suffering that much from DeCSS? How many billions do these guys have to make to be happy?
Anyway, one way to "unclog" this situation is to get a competing format going. Like WM9. Maybe WM9 isn't perfect. Maybe it's from an Evil Empire made of leigions of evil software engineers trying to enslave all of humanity. :rolleyes: Maybe the quality of 720p at 24fps at 5.5 Mb/s is 72.6% that of 1080i at 60fps. But so f what? It beats standard DVDs by a good margin, and standard DVDs already look great on my 100" display (Cinema20HD).
At 8Mb/s, WM9 will be close enough to ATSC's 720p that I really wouldn't care. And with no thanks to D-Theater and their refusal to allow porn on that format, we'd finally have a source of HD porn which would make the market for HDTV suddenly take off. lets face it folks, what got VHS off the ground was porn (and to some extent DVDs), it will do the same for HDTV and HD DVDs.

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post #18 of 62 Old 02-15-2003, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Anyway, one way to "unclog" this situation is to get a competing format going. Like WM9.
Amen. Ditto. Definitely! ;)

Quote:
Maybe WM9 isn't perfect. Maybe it's from an Evil Empire made of leigions of evil software engineers trying to enslave all of humanity. Maybe the quality of 720p at 24fps at 5.5 Mb/ s is 72.6% that of 1080i at 60fps. But so f what? It beats standard DVDs by a good margin, and standard DVDs already look great on my 100" display (Cinema20HD).
And I notice there is now also a 6.9 mbps version of the Liquid clip out at that link now. I'm downloading it as I write this.

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post #19 of 62 Old 02-18-2003, 07:29 PM
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I saw a thread earlier about 720p demos that you could DL that were rather large ( 500+ MB )

I can't seem to find those links. Does anybody happen to know, and could point me toward that thread?

TIA

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post #20 of 62 Old 02-19-2003, 04:48 PM
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They are mostly 1080i but maybe you are thinking about the Heuris Samples

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post #21 of 62 Old 02-19-2003, 06:41 PM
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I still think those 720p WM9 clips are pretty bad.... I wish they would start with a D5 or Hdcam source and create a sample at ~8Mbps.

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post #22 of 62 Old 02-19-2003, 06:46 PM
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Pretty bad? What are you looking at. It looks great to me.
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post #23 of 62 Old 02-19-2003, 06:51 PM
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I am using a 1600x1200 LCD. There is a LOT of noise, artifacting, etc.

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post #24 of 62 Old 02-20-2003, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Savageone79
Pretty bad? What are you looking at. It looks great to me.

Maybe at the heaven. The people are looking really good, but take a look in the sky in the picture with the big wave. Thats the point why i think the clip isnt that good as some people talking about.
In the Case with the Source..same Comment how in my last Post here.


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post #25 of 62 Old 02-20-2003, 07:52 AM
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yeah take a look at the mpeg2 streams you see that are actually the HD format and scrutinize them and tell me that they are so much better? If you look real close you will see bad artifacting at times for those as well. Maybe not as bad but not to far off.
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post #26 of 62 Old 04-08-2003, 09:31 AM
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We have re-encoded this clip using the RTM encoder and posted two versions on the web http://windowsmedia.com/9series/Demo...=VideoQuality, one at 6.9 and one at 5.5Mpbs, about two months ago. The original one was encoded using the beta build, thus having some quality issues. The new files look less blocky.

Note that there are a lot of film grain in the clip. This is actually in the source clip. WMV9 preserves the film grain quite well - a good benefit of WMV9.

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post #27 of 62 Old 04-08-2003, 10:35 AM
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Thanks. The new clip is much superior to the old one. A whole movie at this bitrate would probably take up a one or two DVDs?

I am also having some stuttering problems with the new clip, on a Athlon 1900+. Anyone else?

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post #28 of 62 Old 04-08-2003, 11:38 AM
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7Mbps is kind of the bar for putting a roughly 1 1/2 hour HD movie on a single red-laser 4.7GB DVD. So yes, 1 or 2 DVD's is about right depending on the length of the movie if 6.9Mbps is used for encoding. However, keep in mind that this is a very difficult clip because of the high motion and great amount of film grains. 5 to 6Mbps should be sufficient for typical films. So we do expect that 1 DVD is enough for most, if not all, of the films.

The minimum requirement is AMD Athlon 2100+ or P4 2.2/2.4 Ghz machine. Playing back on 1900+ will indeed result in stuttering.

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post #29 of 62 Old 04-08-2003, 11:46 AM
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> Ming
> Microsoft

Hi, Ming. :)

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post #30 of 62 Old 04-08-2003, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
The minimum requirement is AMD Athlon 2100+ or P4 2.2/2.4 Ghz machine. Playing back on 1900+ will indeed result in stuttering.
Can you explain why this is? I can easily play back 1080i and 720p ATSC transport streams with no stuttering at all.

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