It's official - DirecTV to carry HDNet Movies, Discovery HD, ESPN HD - July 1, 2003! - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 07:19 AM
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4. 540 v 480... Really? Is that why a 480p plasma costs half as much as a 1080? Or why a 480p is 2/3 the cost of a 768???
Plasmas have no bearing on this discussion, as they are still an infinitesimal piece of the market, and couldn't even be bought when the transition began. If you want to keep your discussion to the "real world," limit the display types to CRT tube and rear projection sets. Saying plasma prices somehow proves your point is ridiculous.

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post #542 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Too funny. DirecTV's career opportunities webpage has a listing (posted 6/3/03) for a website coordinator. I wonder if that is a result of a recently vacated position?
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post #543 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by mythical_phenix
Too funny. DirecTV's career opportunities webpage has a listing (posted 6/3/03) for a website coordinator. I wonder if that is a result of a recently vacated position?
Check the source! ;) :p
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post #544 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by David F
Plasmas have no bearing on this discussion, as they are still an infinitesimal piece of the market, and couldn't even be bought when the transition began. If you want to keep your discussion to the "real world," limit the display types to CRT tube and rear projection sets. Saying plasma prices somehow proves your point is ridiculous.
And how much were 1080 RPTVs in 2000????
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post #545 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 07:48 AM
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Originally posted by mythical_phenix
Too funny. DirecTV's career opportunities webpage has a listing (posted 6/3/03) for a website coordinator. I wonder if that is a result of a recently vacated position?
You should get the job! :D
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post #546 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 07:52 AM
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And how much were 1080 RPTVs in 2000????
About the same as a 480p widescreen set would have cost.

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post #547 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 07:55 AM
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/And how much were 1080 RPTVs in 2000????/

I purchased a 53" 1080i Pioneer RPTV for $3300 shipped in 2000. Same set, later iteration with better electronics, can be had for $1800.
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post #548 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 07:57 AM
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That's pretty much what happened to me. I bought a 53" Sony.. similar prices then and now.

"There's such a fine line between stupid and clever" - David St. Hubbins
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post #549 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by Skyboss
Yes for HDNet, however Direct experimented with modifying the 1080i to 540 and then compressing the feed. They are now able to do two 720p feeds on one Transponder. Compressed yes, crappy, not really. Much like a 480p DVD that was mastered in HD. It just looks better because there's more detail in the master.

Think of it this way. You have a 720 or 1080 signal. You compress it. The resolution remains for the most part. When decompressed you get a modified, althrough tolerable feed. The same can, and will be done for locals. Perhaps not in native format, but possibly downconverted to 480p. A good 480p is not objectionable. Murdoch was right. What's more, it's better than 4:3 format material. How can they accomodate the channels? Re-use of the frequency spectrum via spot beams. If done correctly, Directv will have room for about 20 HD feeds from the 110, 101 and 119 using flood sats for nationwide service, and an sufficient amount of feeds using spot beams for the DMA's.

Or... Without using spot beams and possibly being able to drop locals:

(Assumes 10 SDTV or 2 HDTV per Transponder)

92 HDTV Channels (STB would convert to EDTV/SDTV feed)

or

46 HDTV channels (1 per Transponder) and 130 480p channels (3 per Transponder) for a total of 184 channels.

or

20 HDTV and about 180 480p channels.


I mean realy folks, how many channels do we need. We all have to remember that 40 DMAs are sent from the 101 slot that will be allocated to new spot beams by re-using the spectrum in non-overlaping markets. Quick math says that's about 200 channels of space, or 20 HDTV channels.
Sounds like you should get yourself a job in DirecTV's engineering department.
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post #550 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 07:58 AM
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Originally posted by David F
About the same as a 480p widescreen set would have cost.
Not if the change over were mandatory. They would have started rolling out in 1997.
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post #551 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by s2silber
Sounds like you should get yourself a job in DirecTV's engineering department.

Hmmmmm..... Or programing???
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post #552 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 08:01 AM
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3. (Capacity) I suppose that is why DirecTV's capacity has gone from 250 to 500 channels with the use of a spot beam and will increase to 750 channels with it's next launch in November right? You should also note that I suggested a dropping of locals if the FCC would allow it. It doesn't appear this will happen, but perhaps MVDSS will make that possible.
Extra capacity from spots is for locals only, and 300 locals via spots doesn't do you much good when you can only receive 10 (or less). Spots offer no advantage over conus transponders for national distribution. If DirecTV dropped locals, their spot beam satellites would be virtually useless, and would have to be written off.
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4. 540 v 480... Really? Is that why a 480p plasma costs half as much as a 1080? Or why a 480p is 2/3 the cost of a 768???
For the most part, a tube for 480p can also be used for 540p, as the incremental cost for the circuitry to accept a 33.75khz vs 31.5khz signal is almost nil. Plasmas and fixed pixel arrays are obviously a different animal; a 480p plasma screen is physically different from a 720p plasma. As for plasmas, even 480p models still cost thousands of dollars.
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5. (DVD driving sales) DVD was not affected by the screen size and capability, but had 480p sets been available for around $300-400, 16:9 sets would have flown off the shelf.
If 1080i sets were available for $300-$400, they'd fly off the shelf too. If and when you can get a 16:9 480p directview set for $400, you'll probably be able to get a "1080i capable" (closer to 540p actual) model at $400-$450. Neither is realistic at this point in time.
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6. Had the change to a 16:9 format 480 been mandatory, 480 16:9 sets would have flown off the shelf as people would have been as irritated with letter-boxing just as we are with side bars and stretching.
I disagree. There are close to 90 million extended cable subscribers in the U.S., and even more basic cable subscribers. If the broadcast networks went widescreen 480i (or even 480p), many of these viewers would migrate to other cable channels, rather than buying new widescreen TVs. The public will not upgrade their televisions en mass just to get the same old 480i picture, except in widescreen. They require much more to be convinced to buy a widescreen set, and even HD and DVD may not be enough for many viewers (regardless of cost).
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post #553 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 08:10 AM
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Extra capacity from spots is for locals only, and 300 locals via spots doesn't do you much good when you can only receive 10 (or less). Spots offer no advantage over conus transponders for national distribution.

Actually, HD feeds could be downconverted to 480p could be compressed for locals, provided locals means 5-7 channels, unlike certain markets like LA who have about 20 locals. BTW... When did D* release technical data on compression and transmissions to anyone? It's proprietary and vague. How would you know if 300-500 locals in 480 aren't possible? Maybe D* makes such claims to the FCC because of the expense involved, not because of capability.

For the most part, a tube for 480p can also be used for 540p, as the incremental cost for the circuitry to accept a 33.75khz signal is almost nil. Plasmas and fixed pixel arrays are obviously a different animal; a 480p plasma screen is physically different from a 720p plasma. As for plasmas, even 480p models still cost thousands of dollars.

Today yes, 7 years ago... 480 is still cheaper. Volume results in reduced pricing. ENd result. Higher sales, more investment in technology.

If 1080i sets were available for $300-$400, they'd fly off the shelf too. If and when you can get a 16:9 480p directview set for $400, you'll probably be able to get a "1080i capable" (closer to 540p actual) model at $400-$450. Neither is realistic at this point in time.

Yes, but they aren't are they? Stop dealing with todays prices. The opportunity for this was 5-7 years ago. Again... Volume.

I disagree. There are close to 90 million extended cable subscribers in the U.S., and even more basic cable subscribers. If the broadcast networks went widescreen 480i (or even 480p), many of these viewers would migrate to other cable channels, rather than buying new widescreen TVs. The public will not upgrade their televisions en mass just to get the same old 480i picture, except in widescreen. They require much more to be convinced to buy a widescreen set, and even HD and DVD may not be enough for many viewers (regardless of cost).

All channels woudl be 16:9, there wouldn't be a place to migrate too that wasn't 16:9. Also, if you read correctly, 4:3 would be out of production and I'm not talking about 480i, it's 480p.
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post #554 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 08:18 AM
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All channels woudl be 16:9, there wouldn't be a place to migrate too that wasn't 16:9. Also, if you read correctly, 4:3 would be out of production...
How do you figure? The FCC couldn't impose such requirements on cable channels. So you'd end up with the networks in 16:9, plus dozens of other cable channels in 4:3. At least with the newest HDTV STBs, there is a zoom/crop function for 4:3 viewers that prefer a full screen.

Ok, I think we've gotten way off topic here....moderator, feel free to delete.
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post #555 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by bfdtv
How do you figure? The FCC couldn't impose such requirements on cable channels. So you'd end up with the networks in 16:9, plus dozens of other cable channels in 4:3. At least with the newest HDTV STBs, there is a zoom/crop function for 4:3 viewers that prefer a full screen.

Ok, I think we've gotten way off topic here....moderator, feel free to delete.
Not if they had their heads out of the sand and made it mandatory for everyone! :D

So, how many more days 'till we have some semblence of HDTV programing???

Mod... It's good info for newbies...
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post #556 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 08:34 AM
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If I am not mistaken, your discussion is still on topic re: how DirecTV will add more HD channels. I for one like the debate, but if it needs to continue in a new thread, so be it.
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post #557 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 09:34 AM
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Not if they had their heads out of the sand and made it mandatory for everyone!
I realize you had a smiley at the end, but why even say something so patently absurd? The FCC has no authority over cable networks regarding the formatting of their programming. So your claim that everything would be 16x9 "because the government would make them" is impossible.

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post #558 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by David F
I realize you had a smiley at the end, but why even say something so patently absurd? The FCC has no authority over cable networks regarding the formatting of their programming. So your claim that everything would be 16x9 "because the government would make them" is impossible.

ATSC set the standard, not FCC. The FCC does however control their transmission system and can mandate change. How many times will I have to bang my head against a wall on this conversation? I'm getting a freakin' headache. The smile was not joking, it's what would have been a solution. There's nothing absurd about it. Furthermore, if widescreen sets were the standard it would force the hand of the nationwide networks to change.

Nationwide Networks (these are not cable networks, if they were they'd only be on cable) already comply with the DTV standards by their nature. The problem is that 4:3 is still acceptable. Leaving this in is inept bureaucratic thinking. The standard is so flexible that it's amazing anyone adopted 720 or 1080 for broadcast. Heck, even the networks "DO NOT HAVE TO BROADCAST IN HDTV", yes... The Networks could pull the plug on HDTV tomorrow and only 7-10% of the population would give a rats butt. This is a huge error in the establishment of standards. Again, with everyone wanting HD yesterday, they failed to allow the broadcast industry to make incremental change. This is why we are all whining about HDTV programing, and why we will continue to be whining 10 years from now.

Easy reading here....

http://www.atsc.org/faq/faq_general.html
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post #559 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 10:34 AM
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Originally posted by Skyboss
And how much were 1080 RPTVs in 2000????
The year that Toshiba converted their 65" widescreen from 480i to HD, the price pretty much stayed the same from one model year to the next.

Between your comments and your signature, you seem to be arguing with yourself.
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post #560 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 10:38 AM
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I'm not arguring for 480p. I'm arguing for a better, lest costly form of transition. I'd love to have everything in HDTV today, but that's not reality, nor will it be for a long time to come because of the way things are set up. We'll be lucky to have 20 HD channels available by 2006/2007.
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post #561 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 11:18 AM
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This is bizarre and silly. DirecTV is trying to best use existing bandwidth to feed the demand for a few of us to have HDTV. Thank you, DirecTV.

In the meantime, they are working on long-term solutions to massively increase available bandwidth. I have discussed these several times.

No solution at all comes from turning HD into SD. That would neither satisfy HD fans, nor "solve" enough of the bandwidth problem to be particularly interesting.

Mark

There is no difference in HDMI cables. If you can see the picture without visible dropouts or sparklies, the cable is working at 100%. No other cable will display a better version of that picture. You're simply wrong if you think there is a better digital cable than one that is already working. (Oh, and plasma didn't die because of logistics problems, nor does OLED ship in big boxes because it comes from Korea.)
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post #562 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 12:13 PM
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Per Stephanie Campbell, D* is not planning on giving existing TCP subscribers a discount on the HD package. :mad:
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post #563 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 12:46 PM
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I'm not arguring for 480p. I'm arguing for a better, lest costly form of transition.
What's done is done. And the way you've structured your agument, yes you are arguing for 480p with the mistaken notion that it would have been easier and cheaper to implement, both of which are not true.

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post #564 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 12:48 PM
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Originally posted by Skyboss
Actually, HD feeds could be downconverted to 480p could be compressed for locals..
Thus, ends any creditability you have.

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post #565 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 12:52 PM
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When I get to it, I will split this topic into two. One for the ongoing discussion of the original topic, and the other for DirecTV future plans.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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post #566 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by Ken H
Thus, ends any creditability you have.
Shakes head... You have a better solution for D* to deliver better locals?
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post #567 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Skyboss
Shakes head... You have a better solution for D* to deliver better locals?
Actually, News Corp. has better plans than you do, Skyboss...they propose exploring use of the Ka bands to deliver some of the LILs as HD with other solutions for some other markets. DirecTV's likely future owners are not considering selling 480p as equivalent to 720p or 1080i. They have learned that painful lesson with the Fox broadcast network's lackluster 480p "High Resolution" widescreen fiasco.

Here is a link to the story in Multichannel News. (A susbscription is required to read the full story but the first paragraph seen here says it all.)

http://www.multichannel.com/index.as...05%2F26%2F2003

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post #568 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by David McRoy
Actually, News Corp. has better plans than you do, Skyboss...they propose exploring use of the Ka bands to deliver some of the LILs as HD with other solutions for some other markets. DirecTV's likely future owners are not considering selling 480p as equivalent to 720p or 1080i. They have learned that painful lesson with the Fox broadcast network's lackluster 480p "High Resolution" widescreen fiasco.

Here is a link to the story in Multichannel News. (A susbscription is required to read the full story but the first paragraph seen here says it all.)

http://www.multichannel.com/index.as...05%2F26%2F2003
You got that right on lessons learned. That's good news.
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post #569 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 03:36 PM
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Skyboss.... Can you say OTA?, D* delivers the fluff, OTA here has all the networks, kind of simple, right? It's all I need to know, well actually the big deal now is checking the budget twice about buying a 169Time setup for the D* stuff ;-)

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #570 of 815 Old 06-06-2003, 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by mikey p
Skyboss.... Can you say OTA?, D* delivers the fluff, OTA here has all the networks, kind of simple, right? It's all I need to know, well actually the big deal now is checking the budget twice about buying a 169Time setup for the D* stuff ;-)
LOL... OTA is great if you can get it. Where I live it's poblematic for CBS and ABC due to a hill. I'm so close to NBC and Fox I can stuck a piece of RG-6 in the back of my receiver and get those w/ 100% signal. I end up with overload on those as I need an amp for CBS and ABC. I'm working on trying a x10 signal with remote to cut power to the amp when I don't need it.
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