Please, I need to know about CC & HDTV - AVS Forum
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Old 10-25-2003, 05:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Since I am deaf, I need to know whether there are closed captioning on HD programs or not at all through component or DVI.

That would be bad news for deaf people if closed captions won't work with component or DVI connections to watch HDTV.

Paul

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Old 10-25-2003, 06:19 PM
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Captioning is not really a feature incorporated in HD.

yet

Darius
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Old 10-25-2003, 06:45 PM
 
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Most of my local OTA HD channels have closed captioning, but I believe there are two standards. The Samsung STBs seem to support them well, the Zenith models I've heard have problems with captions on some HD channels. By the way the closed captions are NOT send on the cable the same as analog channels where the TV decodes them - for HD the STB has to decode them and you have to go into a menu to enable that.
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Old 10-25-2003, 06:55 PM
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CC works through component on my cable HD box.

HBO CC's some of their HD content including most movies and some series (like Carnival).

Showtime CC's some movies...for instance "The Others" which is playing right now.

I am not sure if your cable or satellite provider would make a difference (mine is Insight Cable). But the equipment definitely will. The Motorola 5000 series cable HD decoder boxes have CC. The Dish 6000 HD Sat box does not. Not sure what the other equipment would have.

Hope this helps!
-Alex-
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Old 10-25-2003, 06:57 PM
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My nephew is severly deaf and he just told me all the programs he watches have closed captioning. The programming he can receive includes the D* HD package, and CBS, NBC and ABC digitals out of Columbus, Ohio.

My HD DNS days are kaput!
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Old 10-25-2003, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank God! Whew, that's great news for me and others.
Now I don't hate HDTV.

BTW,

Quote:
Originally posted by bairda
CC works through component on my cable HD box.

HBO CC's some of their HD content including most movies and some series (like Carnival).

Showtime CC's some movies...for instance "The Others" which is playing right now.

I am not sure if your cable or satellite provider would make a difference (mine is Insight Cable). But the equipment definitely will. The Motorola 5000 series cable HD decoder boxes have CC. The Dish 6000 HD Sat box does not. Not sure what the other equipment would have.

Hope this helps!
-Alex-

It doesn't matter whether any equipment such as a STB or PVR has a built-in CC decoder or not as long as it's included in a TV (13in and larger) as required by law.

Many thanks , everybody.

I am so glad to know there's closed captioning on HD after all.

Paul

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Old 10-25-2003, 07:51 PM
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Be more specific with topic titles, see my edit.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

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Old 10-25-2003, 10:15 PM
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Yes, CC for HD is in use with separate encoders for the HD feeds. This is what is used by the nets for captioning.
http://www.evertz.com/products/HD9084.php
GT

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Old 10-26-2003, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sowildpaul
It doesn't matter whether any equipment such as a STB or PVR has a built-in CC decoder or not as long as it's included in a TV (13in and larger) as required by law.
If your HD TV does not have a built in digital tuner, you will have to rely on the set top box for your CC. At that point screen size has nothing to do with it. All STB's MUST have the V-chip AND CC in them. The HD STB's WILL NOT PASS IT ON TO YOUR TV like an SD box. You will have to turn it on ON THE STB. TURNING IT ON YOUR HDTV WILL DO NOTHING in this case. If your STB is having trouble decoding CC, like some of the early Samsung's and Zenith's, your HDTV WILL NOT HAVE CC.

I know for a fact the Samsung SIR-T150's will not decode EIA708 CC if there is a EIA608 CC signal sent in a HD configuration along with the EIA708. I have been going round and round with Samsung on this issue for over a year now and they pretty much refuse to do anything about it. They say that model is no longer in production and they don't support it. If I want CC, buy a SIR T151 STB.

There are still transmit hardware CC issues as well. I am now in the middle of one such problem with the digital CC encoder and MPEG2 encoder manufacturers. When I have the digital CC encoder turned on, it will lock up the MPEG2 encoder so until the two manufacturers can figure out what is going on, I have no digital CC on air at the moment.

Unlike SD CC, in HD there is no "line 21" for the CC data to ride on. The CC is literally stripped out of the digital signal as a stream and then is routed around any aspect/up conventors and reinserted directly into the MPEG2 encoder.

This link can give you all the info you might need on digital CC and how it is done in the digital world that differs from the analog world.

http://www.evertz.com/resources/eia_608_708_cc.pdf

http://www.evertz.com/resources/cc_food_chain.pdf

Good luck.

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Old 10-27-2003, 06:00 AM
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We went through much of the same thing.......

We are using the Evertz 7760CCM-T Closed-Captioning Transcoder feeding a DiviCom/Harmonic MV400 HDTV Encoder.
We use the existing Line-21 CC from the SDTV channel (taking a spare/looping output of the noise reducer, prior to upconversion) and feed it to the Evertz card. The Evertz provides an RS-232 (?) data output to feed the HD Encoder.

It took a lot of work by both companies to get all of the software working. You may want to talk to the manufacturers and see what the very latest s/w is.

We are monitoring HDCC with a Samsung SIR-T165. We can only see the captions on the output of the box, not through the D-VHS recorder, though. I hear that the D-VHS will not work with HDCC.....so I guess you can only get CC "live".

Ken English, Sr. Engineer, KSL-TV.
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Old 10-27-2003, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kenglish
We went through much of the same thing.......

We are using the Evertz 7760CCM-T Closed-Captioning Transcoder feeding a DiviCom/Harmonic MV400 HDTV Encoder.
Evertz 8085 and a Harmonic Divicom MV400. You feed it garbage 608 captioning and the 8085 will send control codes to the MV400 and lock up the MV400.

Tons o' fun!

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Old 10-28-2003, 02:21 AM
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Quote:
I hear that the D-VHS will not work with HDCC.....so
I guess you can only get CC "live".
CC works if you play the recorded D-VHS tape back through
the T165 over 1394.

Ron

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Old 10-28-2003, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by dr1394
CC works if you play the recorded D-VHS tape back through
the T165 over 1394.

Ron
If D-VHS VCR is connected to an integated HDTV monitor via 1394 such as Hitachi S700, will that work, too?


Ok, I have learned alot from this thread. Now I know there are two different CC decoders, one for digital and one for analog, therefore I have to have a STB with a built-in digital CC decoder and/or an integrated HDTV monitor to watch HD with CC. I found out that most STBs including LG DVR (LST-3410A) have it so I have nothing to worry about. I pray Directv/Tivo HD receivers will have it. Does Dish DVR 921 include it, too?

Thanks alot for helpful info.

Paul

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Old 10-28-2003, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sowildpaul
I pray Directv/Tivo HD receivers will have it. Does Dish DVR 921 include it, too?
My Samsung SIR-TS160 DirecTV IRD/OTA HD integrated STB receiver receives both analog and digital CC from sat and HD OTA.

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Old 10-28-2003, 01:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by foxeng
My Samsung SIR-TS160 DirecTV IRD/OTA HD integrated STB receiver receives both analog and digital CC from sat and HD OTA.
So are there any problem with digital CC? Does it look the same as analog CC (white text with black background)?
If you have experiment with changing different fonts, size, etc., is it fun? Is it worth it?

Paul

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Old 10-28-2003, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by sowildpaul
So are there any problem with digital CC? Does it look the same as analog CC (white text with black background)?
If you have experiment with changing different fonts, size, etc., is it fun? Is it worth it?

Paul
It works pretty much the same as analog. You can change font colors and styles and background colors and all that. It really depends on the transmission source how reliable it is. I find that many HD shows are not encoded yet even though the broadcasters are required to be sending CC. HBO HD will sometimes have trouble and you will get garbage, but it works 80% of the time. I have never seen any CC on HDNet and the networks HD is hit and miss on which HD shows have it and which don't. All the SD upconverts do have it and 9 times out of 10 if you see it in analog, you will see it digitally on the SD programs.

I don't have a hearing loss, but working in broadcasting, I try and keep up with it since I am the one who gets the trouble calls at work.

Hope that helps.

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Old 10-28-2003, 05:16 PM
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I have a Samsung T-160 and CC over D does work, but over OTA does not work with the exception of FOX. Now tell me fellows, is this because of my local affiliate or the Samsung box?
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Old 10-29-2003, 04:16 AM - Thread Starter
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That's weird. One of the ways to find out is to buy an ATSC tuner, test it and return it. Or another way is to ask any HDTV owners you know in your area.
That's all I can think of.
BTW, I myself don't have a HDTV yet but I will someday soon.

Paul

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Old 10-29-2003, 05:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wayner3
I have a Samsung T-160 and CC over D does work, but over OTA does not work with the exception of FOX. Now tell me fellows, is this because of my local affiliate or the Samsung box?
If you are getting CC over a FOX affilate via their DTV signal, then the other stations are not sending it for two reasons. One, they aren't getting any CC to pass, or they are not passing ANY CC. Your receiver is fine. I would suggest you call the stations that you are not seeing CC on and ask them if they are sending CC on their digital channel. I would bet they aren't and if no one has called about it, they haven't worried about.

Remember, all OTA DTV stations are to be sending CC now if they receive any. If not, they can be reported to the FCC just like the analogs. You as the viewer are in the drivers seat. That is why I take CC VERY seriously at my station and why I have just about killed people at the equipment manufacturers to get their stuff working right.

Because of the low viewer penetration, most people think they have time before they have to worry about CC on DTV. (the manufacturers do, I will tell you that!) A couple of calls to the station or FCC will shake them up, trust me.

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Old 10-29-2003, 01:44 PM
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I have the Sammy 151, and I RARELY get CC when I have it turned on. It's very frustrating because I suffer some moderate hearing loss and often use CC on shows where the dialog is low or rapid. I seem to get it on PBS, but rarely do I get it (if ever) on CBS, NBC or ABC HDs.

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Old 10-29-2003, 03:42 PM
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I have also had problems with CC with a Zenith tuner. It depends on whether your stations support the new standard; most don't.
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Old 10-29-2003, 10:42 PM
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I have been trying to use CC on my Samsung T-160 while watching OTA CBS and it had never worked. The strange thing is that CC did occasionally come up on the screen, but just briefly for something like one sentence. I always thought that HD broadcast had not got CC working yet. Now I realize that it's time to call my local station (NYC).

Anybody in NY having the same problem?
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Old 10-30-2003, 07:53 AM
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In eastern Iowa, I have seen CC like you describe for maybe a sentence or two on our NBC affiliate, and then it disappears. I too will call our local stations.
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Old 10-30-2003, 05:18 PM
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I've been running around in circles for the past month or so trying to narrow down problems receiving CC from my local network HD channels as received through Time Warner Cable... I've emailed the directors of engineering at the stations and gotten responses from some but not others, and I've been in contact with TW engineering as well, with nothing to show for it so far. I'm using the new Pace DC550 HD tuner, so part of my problem is that I don't know for sure if the issues are with the box, TW, the networks, or the local affiliates - but after reading through this thread my money's on the affiliates.

The frustrating part is that while some stations give me nothing at all, on CBS HD I get captioning for some shows but not others - and when I check the analog counterpart CC is there.

Think it's time to pick up the phone instead of trying to resolve via email... I know that this is still emerging technology to some extent, but this is really very frustrating...
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Old 10-30-2003, 06:10 PM
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Well! I am not alone in this regard.

I live near Annapolis, Maryland. I have Baltimore Comcast HDTV. Most of Foxeng's comments in this thread are dead-on. The SD content broacast by local affiliates on their HDTV transmissions TEND to be captioned. I have YET to see anything in HD with closed captions. I had thought the blame was with Comcast and considered a OTA STB. Now I am heariing that the affiliates are very much in the hot seat after reading this thread.

I did start a dialog with one of the local ABC affiliates (WMAR) and the director or engineering told me that there was an issue with their serial port for closed captions on their HDTV encoder locking up and refusing to encode captions. They are "waiting" for a field tech to fix this problem but they don't seem to be in any hurry. I have yet to hear from any of the other affiliates so what would be the proper way to "light a fire" under their butts? Like Foxeng says, they don't think they're in any hurry until someone actually calls. Given that the HDTV market share is very small, and the number of users dependent on closed caption for HDTV is even smaller still! Maybe I can count all the deaf HDTV viewers on both of my hands.

Well, it is certainly sounding like more and more like a brave new world for deaf/hard-of-hearing HDTV viewers

Oh, I forgot to mention - ESPNHD - no captions. ShowtimeHD is really crazy with their captions, I swear sometimes I'm seeing data for WebTV because I'm seing URL's embedded in the closed captions and it is really terrible. The only relaible one out of the bunch is HBO! They're the most reliable with captions thus far, for me anyway.

-- Bill
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Old 10-30-2003, 09:49 PM
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DTV CC is in reasonably good shape here in the San Francisco Bay Area.
On my Samsung T165, the results of scan of the band during prime time are:
Code:
KTVU-DT FOX = good
KRON-DT IND = good
KPIX-DT CBS = good
KGO-DT  ABC = none
KQED-DT PBS = good
KNTV-DT NBC = good
KDTV-DT UNI = none
KBWB-DT  WB = none on HD, good on SD
KTSF-DT IND = none
KCNS-DT SAH = none
KCSM-DT PBS = good
KBHK-DT UPN = good
KSTS-DT TEL = good (NBC HD sub-channel also good)
KKPX-DT PAX = good
KFSF-DT TFA = none
Aside from the spanish and home shopping channels, the only
glaring omission is KGO-DT ABC.

Ron

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Old 10-31-2003, 06:20 AM
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Talking about CC. Turner Networks just won an award for their work in that area.
Excerpt....
"At its annual black-tie gathering in New York City on October 23, the National Academy of Television Arts & Sciences (NATAS) awarded its coveted 2003 Technology & Engineering Awards in the fields of digital encoding, surround sound audio, digital RF modulation, projection technology, closed captioning systems and digital image acquisition.

And the winners are:

-Turner Networks; for its pioneering Efforts in the development of automated, server-based close captioning systems."

GT

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Old 11-03-2003, 08:33 AM
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Interestingly, in the evening of the very same day I sent an email to my local CBS station (NYC) I started to receive CC on their HDTV programs. I haven't received a response from them and now it doesn't look like I need one.
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Old 11-26-2003, 01:19 PM
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This seems to be the most relevant thread so I'll add a similar item:

With my Sony SAT 300 STB, I get HD CC about perfectly from OTA and D*. A lot better quality, in fact, than from cable and elsewhere when the display did it. However, the one problem I've had sporadically is a fixed time delay of the caption being five seconds behind the live audio on FOX 5 (DC) several times. This happened twice for two whole episodes of 24, and at other times also. No real pattern, and it's not all the time.

Anyone else in the DC area seeing this? I know it's not my equipment since at the same second I can change OTA channels to WRC4 (for example) and see perfectly sync'd CCs. Strangest part is I can't see how this can be happening. I'm a engineer, of sorts, and that's a *long* delay to have in the stream!

Thanks for any comments! (I may send them an email also, but there never seems to be a good address on the website to use...)

-Lee (See my profile for equipment.)
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Old 12-02-2003, 07:55 AM
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It seems that CC over the air is transmitted but as I can't get OTA I am held to my STB and the only CC I get is from HBO. If a station puts out CC on regular broadcast is it also required to add it to their HD transmission. I ask this as one of many hearing impaired. It really is frustrating to receive a great picture and guess what is being said.
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