HAS the OAR battle been lost? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Lots of HD movies on alot of channels tonight, including CBS and NBC and with the exception of SHO, every single one is cropped (2.35 that is).

To me it appears that the OAR battle for broadcast HD has been lost. A major dissapointment. It makes no sense to me as OAR DVDs are outselling their "full frame" counterparts.

Here's hoping HD-DVD arrives soon.

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post #2 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 07:40 PM
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Some might say, that's the point!

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post #3 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
HAS the OAR battle been lost?
It hasn't even started yet.

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post #4 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 08:06 PM
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Just be glad that DVDs are still available in OAR. They'll be 16:9 only next.

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post #5 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by CycloneGT
Just be glad that DVDs are still available in OAR. They'll be 16:9 only next.
shudders:( :eek:
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post #6 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 08:17 PM
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Hearts & Minds (although an inappropriate use in comparison).

Now cropping The Omega Man. That's criminal. After seeing my second good movie on HDnet Movies (Wild Things). I don't know if it did much for the movie (although if it kept the resolution better it's worth the $ (or saved money from pan & scan). The resolution was well... Now the other movie was The Wild Bunch (how is that for extremes - and both with Wild in it), and there OAR was intuitively critical.

Ken is right, and it is more than an educate the masses or the sixpacks. It's experiential. DVDs hopefully lay the foundation of showing the value of 16x9 helping to get closer to the "real" framing, key word closer not actual.

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post #7 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 08:29 PM
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even thought i am the minority, i hope the shift is to 16:9 filming so this issue just goes away.

if not, at least let us stretch hd material

last but not least, thanx for stretching!! i did not buy a widescreen tv to watch movies with black bars

:)
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post #8 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 08:41 PM
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This is what I just don't understand. If the vast majority of hdtv's sold are 16:9, and they are broadcasting these movies in hd, then why the hell are they so afraid of OAR? Its not like they're appealing to joe six pack here. HD viewers are a discriminating lot and I would wager we overwhelmingly want oar. This is just stupid

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post #9 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
even thought i am the minority, i hope the shift is to 16:9 filming so this issue just goes away.

if not, at least let us stretch hd material

last but not least, thanx for stretching!! i did not buy a widescreen tv to watch movies with black bars

:)
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post #10 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 09:47 PM
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Well one salvo that has not yet been fired (that I'm aware of at least) is a handful of great directors very publicly complaining about their movies being shown non-OAR. I think that would go quite aways towards improving the overall tone of the debate.

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post #11 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 10:01 PM
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It may not matter that the HD viewers want HD, the people making the decisions about OAR vs 16x9 only may in fact be Joe Sixpacks.

We're having this exact situation in Denver. There's a station that just launched their HD signal. Their engineer is checking in on our Denver thread to verify different PSIP settings are working for example. Because he prefers 4x3 SD content stretched on his digital channel, that's what we're getting. Almost unanimously, the viewers have tried telling him we'd prefer seeing bars on the sides of SD content, giving us the ability to stretch it if we want to fill our 16x9 sets.

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post #12 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 10:40 PM
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Well, something I recently noticed was D* has Willard in OAR on the HDPPV channel. This is the first time I've seen a 2.35 AR movie not zoomed and cropped to fit our 16x9 screens.

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post #13 of 276 Old 01-03-2004, 11:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by trancer23
last but not least, thanx for stretching!! i did not buy a widescreen tv to watch movies with black bars
So you bought a widescreen tv so you could have the sides chopped off? Makes sense...
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post #14 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 04:42 AM
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To Xfactor.........I know you think you are being smart with that reply but when you stretch the picture it looks like crap as the other posters have said the newer tv's can Stretch the picture we do NOT need to be force feed the picture
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post #15 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 04:47 AM
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I like to frequent the movie theater when I really want to see what the director had in mind................

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post #16 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 04:50 AM
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To Xfactor.........I know you think you are being smart with that reply but when you stretch the picture it looks like crap as the other posters have said the newer tv's can Stretch the picture we do NOT need to be force feed the picture
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post #17 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Golf19
To Xfactor.........I know you think you are being smart with that reply but when you stretch the picture it looks like crap as the other posters have said the newer tv's can Stretch the picture we do NOT need to be force feed the picture
So, let me get this straight. Bear in mind we are talking HD broadcasts here, not SD.

1. You want them to force feed me a 16:9 non-OAR image so your screen is filled and the sides are chopped off.

2. You don't want them to feed me the OAR image so I can enjoy the image as the Director intended.

3. You don't want them to give you the option to stretch/zoom the image because you don't like the PQ. Can you even stretch/zoom an HD image or are you talking about stretched/zoomed SD programming here?

4. You want them to release all DVDs in non-OAR so you don't have top/bottom bars.

Bottom line is that only you get your wish and those of us who want OAR are left pissing in the wind. Did I miss anything?

BTW. You didn't have to post twice, I think X could read the first post. :)

PS. X, I know you can speak for yourself, but I couldn't resist having some fun this morning. I'm getting nervous about the Packer game today. :D

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post #18 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 07:03 AM
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YES! it's been lost get over it..........

It is "WOW" TV!
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post #19 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mikey p
YES! it's been lost get over it..........
Well, there you have it. We can close the forums and all go home. :)

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post #20 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 08:10 AM
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Discussing the directors intent always makes me laugh. I am for OAR but it sounds so pretentious to bring up the directors intent.
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post #21 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 08:19 AM
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You know, sales of 16:9 TVs are increasing at a good rate. But you really don't think that all those new buyers are OAR advocates, do you?

What we're seeing is the advent of the more economically advantaged J6P population starting to buy these shiny new widescreen sets, but still wanting their screens to be filled no matter what. They couldn't care less about OAR or even maintaining the original picture proportions. Pan&Scan it, stretch it, do whatever it takes to keep them black bars off my set!

Ironically, the transition to widescreen sets could actually be more detrimental to OAR since to some it makes cropping more acceptable. Let's hope that isn't the case when HD-DVD comes around.
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post #22 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dm145
Discussing the directors intent always makes me laugh. I am for OAR but it sounds so pretentious to bring up the directors intent.
I don't know why it makes you laugh or how you come up with the term pretentious. Do you not believe directors, or anyone else involved, cares how the final scene looks? Do you not think they actually take some time composing wide scenes to get the right mix of content? Do you think they film 235:1 simply because that is the only camera they have? Do you not think Cinemascope (and the other panorama-type techniques) made a real difference in movie making and enjoyment many years ago?

I guess we should just go back to silent, 4:3, B&W movies just so we don't have to discuss 'director's Intent' or ask content providers to present things the way they were made and not cropped for whatever reason. It used to be that we didn't have that option, but now that we do, it doesn't seem unreasonable to want what we see in the theater instead of someone's idea of what is good enough for us peasants.

If you ever watch the 'how it was made' stuff, the Director (or someone) does a lot of looking through the camera to check the composition of the shots. To me, this means there are at least some directors out there who actively try to compose what the final scene will look like. Now, whether or not they are paying close attention to what is on the outer edges of the scene is pure supposition, but I have compared fullscreen and widescreen versions of the same movie and there is a difference in enjoyment, particularly of the epic scenes like in Star Wars, LOTR, TOTS, Apocalypse Now, etc. If it didn't matter to anyone, they would just 4:3 fullscreen everything and we'd never know the difference. This has been the case for a lot of years, but like someone else pointed out, why does widescreen OAR out sell every other format?

Would I watch a fullsceen movie? Sure. Would I watch a cropped widescreen movie? Sure. Would I prefer OAR? Definitely, no matter what anyone thinks about the director's intent or top/bottom bars. If I had my way, I wouldn't even let you zoom it, but that already got me in trouble in another thread, so I won't go that far. :) All I want is OAR for me and a zoom option for you, then we'd both be happy.

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post #23 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 09:50 AM
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DoubleDAZ:cool:

you have read my mind.
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post #24 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 09:59 AM
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Linux23. Is that a good thing? :)

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post #25 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 10:03 AM
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Absolutely...I just finished rewatching the 5+ hours of the "making of" of the FOTR, I can almost feel Jackson's pain as the films he spent years of his life making get "edited" in a few weeks because some network twit doesn't like "those black bars."

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post #26 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 10:48 AM
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I understand that some folks simply, for whatever reasons, don't like bars on their sets, though I'm not sure what they do with DVDs. At any rate, what gets me is that if the only options are OAR or cropped, they will force me to watch cropped instead of coping with the bars. I realize that they can turn that around on me, but at least all I'm asking for is the original content and not something that's be hacked. I've had to watch that on regular TV for years and I think it's time I get my way for a while, you know? Maybe the latest S-A software for the 3250/3270 with HD zoom will pacify ( :) )them.

I got a chuckle out of the poster in another thread who wants the TV/box to constantly scan the image checking for bars and automatically zoom/unzoom the image. I'll admit this is an intriguing idea, but it just shows how spoiled (if that's the right term) we are when it comes to coping with minor inconviences IMHO. To me, the technology is so new that much of this stuff we discuss now will be moot in a few years and it's not worth getting all bent out of shape about. Of course, some of that could be from typing thoughts instead of vebalizing them and I'm probably just as guilty of misinderstanding someone as they are of misunderstanding me. :(

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post #27 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by b2bonez
The Holy Grail of Widescreen started as a marketing gimmick to counter the
popularity of TV and boost the boxoffice revenue of films.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/wide...format_war.htm

So yes the directors adapted to the film format and chopping it
ruins the framing, but for 50 years 4:3 was the norm.

And guess what? The IMAX format it 4:3. What is old is now new.
That is basically true, but it doesn't mean that the wide screen aspect ratios aren't an improvement, or at the very least a viable alternative. Many classic paintings (particularly by Italian artists) were done on a 2:1 canvas, because it just happens to be a pleasing frame shape, both in terms of better matching the human eye's average field of view and in presenting opportunities for artful and meaningful compositions.

Different stories have different needs, and therefore a different shape canvas is appropriate for those needs. Sometimes it's simply to add more scope to the story, as in an epic like Lawrence of Arabia, or more recently, the Lord Of The Rings trilogy. Sometimes a narrower frame is appropriate, as in the case of Jurassic Park - where Spielberg (along with his cameraman, Dean Cundey) chose to use a 1.85 frame so that the dinosaurs looked taller relative to the rest of the frame. The choice of aspect ratio is made jointly by the director and the cinematographer based on story needs, production design, and intended compositions based on storyboard sketches. It is not done by rote, and it is not done without thought.
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post #28 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by b2bonez
The Holy Grail of Widescreen started as a marketing gimmick to counter the
popularity of TV and boost the boxoffice revenue of films.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/wide...format_war.htm

So yes the directors adapted to the film format and chopping it
ruins the framing, but for 50 years 4:3 was the norm.

And guess what? The IMAX format it 4:3. What is old is now new.

b2b
Yes, but old does not necessarily mean better. The original basis for 4:3 aspect ratio of film came from the physical development of the technology.

Since that time, much research has been done regarding the human visual perception system. It's been determined that our field of view is horizontally oriented, not equally horizontal and vertical, or vertical. Thus, the 16:9 aspect ratio of HDTV. Wider aspect ratio film and video play to this bias, enhancing the sensation of immersion, which makes for a more convincing viewing experience. Less horizontally oriented aspect ratios do not allow for the same visual experience.

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post #29 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 11:16 AM
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b2bonez. That is certainly true, so we go round and round (aren't some IMAX being converted to HD?).

The point in your link though (IMO anyway) was that the other techniques were developed to combat TV, but it didn't say why Cinerama, which unwittingly started the war, was developed in the first place. It also points out that the anamorphic lens (later released as CinemaScope) was developed 25 years earlier (circa 1925 or so), much too early for TV to have been the competition, though I suppose there was competition between the emerging technologies just like anything else, including the different HD broadcast formats 8-VSB and CODFM, etc.

Thanks for the link, it was an interesting read.

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post #30 of 276 Old 01-04-2004, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ken H
Yes, but old does not necessarily mean better. The original basis for 4:3 aspect ratio of film came from the physical development of the technology.

Since that time, much research has been done regarding the human visual perception system. It's been determined that our field of view is horizontally oriented, not equally horizontal and vertical, or vertical. Thus, the 16:9 aspect ratio of HDTV. Wider aspect ratio film and video play to this bias, enhancing the sensation of immersion, which makes for a more convincing viewing experience. Less horizontally oriented aspect ratios do not allow for the same visual experience.

Which why be why the Movie industry (maybe not all the industry) endorsed a 2:1 display vs 16:9 (and lost the same as the Microsofties pushing 4:3) for the higher res standards of ATSC. Interestingly, 2:1 would likely be better for PIP or other convergence type applications, but we would still have black bars (or hypothetically hopefully would have) for real scope/...vision pictures. (It would have likely killed off the tube era more quickly, but it also may have made SD more prevalent than HD for digital a la Europe).

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