E* Joins the HD-Lite Club - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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Old 04-10-2005, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by motjes2
Many AVS members who live in denial and say that there's nothing wrong are hurting HD quality for everyone. Instead of checking the evidence provided here, they all get very emotional and think that somehow we are attacking their provider who they have chosen to invest money on.
I think you can almost count those living in denial (on AVS) with one hand and I tend to see the opposite. Members trying to explain what is happening, hoping it will get better, or as in this thread even suggest that the source be improved get labeled as "HD hurters"

As far as what to do... ultimately money speaks. I have complained to my provider above the CSR level and if and when the day comes that another provider becomes better suited I will inform them why I am leaving.
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Old 04-10-2005, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HDTVFanAtic
IWhat is HDTV and what is reasonable?

If one was able to convince them that 1280x1080 was not HD but HD-Lite, then all claims to HD would have to stop. That would be the quickest way to solve the problem.

However, as 1280x1080 is one of the 19 HD formats adopted, this would not be as easy as one might think.
Plus the FCC has said that 1280 by 720 is an HD format. The courts or FTC could come back and say that 720p is recognized as a HD format and is considered so with even less resolution 1280 by 1080i. I doubt they would even get into the interlaced vs progressive scan debate and go on pure horizontal resolution numbers. IMHO, that is a battle you can't win. The cards are stacked against you.

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Old 04-10-2005, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HDTVFanAtic
If one was able to convince them that 1280x1080 was not HD but HD-Lite, then all claims to HD would have to stop. That would be the quickest way to solve the problem.
I remember somebody posting a blurb from DIRECTV's website claiming how great the 1920x1080 we could get from them was and yet I don't believe even a single channel is 1920x1080 at the moment. I'm not sure if DIRECTV ever changed their wording, but it sure looked like it became false advertising when they stopped providing any 1920x1080 programming to me.

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Old 04-10-2005, 03:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Charles R
I think you can almost count those living in denial (on AVS) with one hand and I tend to see the opposite.

Well, it appears to me that their are many people who claim they do not see a difference. My and others hd-lite postings disturbed a lot of people. I even got a few emails asking me to stop bringing this information up. As a poster stated before these people act like we are insulting them and their provider. They take it very seriously and will rip you every chance they get. One trend i disagree with that has been mentioned here is how this hd-lite thing from D* just started in the last six months. D* has been screwing with their hd channels for years now. Slowly degrading them over time. If you look back two years from today you will see threads about this. Now they have made it so bad that everyone can see it.
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Old 04-10-2005, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jeffthurmont
Well, it appears to me that their are many people who claim they do not see a difference. My and others hd-lite postings disturbed a lot of people. I even got a few emails asking me to stop bringing this information up. As a poster stated before these people act like we are insulting them and their provider. They take it very seriously and will rip you every chance they get. One trend i disagree with that has been mentioned here is how this hd-lite thing from D* just started in the last six months. D* has been screwing with their hd channels for years now. Slowly degrading them over time. If you look back two years from today you will see threads about this. Now they have made it so bad that everyone can see it.
<sarcasm>But look on the bright side...the few million sunday ticket subscribers get all their football games at full res, full bitrate and HD!</sarcasm>
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Old 04-10-2005, 06:19 PM
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so are all 1080i HD channels on E* now 1280 x 1080i, it soon may be time for BUD??

-Gary
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Old 04-10-2005, 11:39 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Murrell
so are all 1080i HD channels on E* now 1280 x 1080i, it soon may be time for BUD??

-Gary
Last I checked it was only PPV.

Maybe they are experimenting? Maybe someone is insisting that the PPV be downrezzed?

The only upside I can see is that maybe they are making room to offer some of the soon-to-be-defunct Voom channels?
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Old 04-11-2005, 02:36 AM
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Well I was just getting ready to order up "Collateral" and D-VHS it, but now I think I won't, I emailed Dish with my complaint and explained how I fill, that they have (for the most part) been the best with HDTV quality in the past and that they should keep those standards

-Gary
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Old 04-11-2005, 05:51 AM
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As posted above, E* obviously has some problem both with encoding errors and with the Dish 6000 tring to output 720p from a 1280x1080i movie.

I don't get E*, and maybe never will. But it seems to me that the real issue is whether these 1280w pictures have noticeably less detail. And I have never seen a recorded telecined movie from either OTA or Comcast where I thought it actually had significantly more horizontal detail than 1280, or at least 1440. That's just my opinion based upon recording various things. I'm not saying there couldn't be that much detail. Just that there usually isn't. Newer 4K oversampling telecine machines are potentially supposed to be able to fix that. We'll see.

But for the moment, and ignoring the current encoding errors, does the 1280 picture look softer yet? Many people with the new D* lite say they can obviously see the difference, and the posted images at the link above certainly support this. But MPEG-2 loses detail as needed when you don't have enough bit rate and D* has steadily also been dropping theirs, so that could also be the culprit.

But what about E*? They are still reportedly using 18 mbps which (if properly telecined) should be more than enough for a 24 fps film? Is it visibly softer yet?

Or is this just an experiment or effort to get people used to it in anticipation of dropping the bit rate later?

- Tom

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Old 04-11-2005, 05:55 AM
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One more thing to look for here. As the horizontal resolution is reduced you woud expect the picture to begin to look softer with less horizontal detail in the easy to compress still scenes. But I'd also expect it to maybe look better with fewer blocks and other visible artifacts in the hard to compress action scenes.

Does that happen?

- Tom

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Old 04-11-2005, 07:16 AM
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Earlier someone posted that 1280X1080i was one of the standard formats. News to me unless it's in one of the latest ATSC tables, which don't necessarily apply to non-OTA transmissions.
***************
Quote:
One more thing to look for here. As the horizontal resolution is reduced you woud expect the picture to begin to look softer with less horizontal detail in the easy to compress still scenes. But I'd also expect it to maybe look better with fewer blocks and other visible artifacts in the hard to compress action scenes.

Does that happen?
Wonder how the home MPEG decoding process of 1920X1080i versus 1280X1080i factors in? Assuming the resolvable detail (effective resolution) of telecines in still typically low, as sspears measured with 1080/24p telecined master tapes a while back (link above), both formats might deliver similar resolvable details prior to decoding.

But would an estimated 15% reduction in resolution after home decoding account for the soft appearance of one format over the other (for telecines)? The ATSC-approval video experts anticipated a 20% horizontal resolution (resolvable) maximum decoding drop (see 2.1 Resolution ), but measured only about 15% maximum reduction (see table for 1920X1080i static B&W, assuming full 1920-pixel test-pattern resolution. That is, 1638 measured versus 1920.) -- John

If HDNet's Tuesday 8 am Eastern test patterns (resolution wedges) weren't affected by the format reductions it would be a definitive method of measuring changes. Gary Merson, using the patterns via D* for his May/June 2003 Perfect Vision review of the 1080p Toshiba LCoS RPTV, measured 1770 lines and a full 1920 lines resolution with his pattern generator. -- John

EDIT: More grist for this postulated home-decoder theory: As mentioned earlier above, my NYC Time Warner SA8300HD cable converter only delivers 1290 lines maximum horizontal resolvable detail. That's with HDNet's test patterns, and a different converter/cable company provides 1335 lines max. So it seems I'm getting HDLite, too, with the 8300HD, except AFAIK TWC here is still providing a 1920X1080i format.
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:31 AM
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lol

you guys with a backyard need to get a BUD (C-Band) and stop worrying!
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by shah8
Beware, you may just get what you ask for...

Voom might have failed, but D* and E* aren't really doing much better...they are only making it due to cheap money and subsidies right now...
They're only making it because there's no place else to go and we continue to want what they're selling - unless you're paying that bill every month for something you don't want.

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Old 04-11-2005, 01:23 PM
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What does it cost to get a BUD and receiver now days? Last time I even knew what the price was, it was about 3 grand or so for the dish and about a grand for the receiver...if I remember correctly...that was a LONG time ago. Maybe the dish was about 1 grand or about $500.

What kind of programming can one get from a BUD and is the HD quality the FULL resolution without any of the compression?

Movies must be OAR, sports and movies must also have 5.1 audio, No EE or NO SALE!
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Old 04-11-2005, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jeffthurmont
Well, it appears to me that their are many people who claim they do not see a difference. My and others hd-lite postings disturbed a lot of people.
I personally can notice a BIG difference on some channels, Showtime-HD, HDNet Movies, HBO-HD are generally very disappointing. I've seen some presentations on these channels that are at least higher resolution than their DVD counterparts, but most of the time, I'd rather watch a DVD version. I don't like the way DirecTV monkies with their HD channels, but currently DirecTV is the provider that best suits me. A few years down the line, that may no longer be true, but for now, and for the last eleven years, they offer me most of the services that I desirefor my TV provider than any other company I currently have access to (I can't get Cable, so only satellite companies).

I really have no problems with people complaining about "HD-Lite", it's something that needs to be complained about, but a lot of "people" whose names I can't remember, went beyond "HD-Lite" postings and went into a "why are you with DirecTV, come to VOOM", or "DirecTV sucks", or "you're an idiot for subscribing to DirecTV", when most of us don't care for "HD-Lite", but are simply staying with DirecTV because they fit our needs the best right now, and we plan to stick it out with them and hope for the best.

Heck, even Vurbano is fixing to be stuck with "HD-Lite".

~Alan

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Old 04-11-2005, 03:09 PM
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I don't like the bit-starving being implemented by E* any more than other folks do. Why, however, has this become an issue in only the last few days? They began doing this just before the Olympics, in order to shift bandwidth to make room for the NBC HD feed. I don't know if they've returned that allocated bandwidth since then (or if they've just tweaked their technique) but the PQ has improved since they intially messed with it. That said, it's not to the "D* HD-lite" level, yet, in my opinion.

Some folks speculated, around that time, that they were using a method to shift bandwidth where needed (so more demanding programming got more bits as needed), sometimes at the expense of another HD slot.

Also, I'm not sure about HDNet movies, but Mark has responded personally to complaints about HDNet PQ on E* in the past, as neccesary. Has anyone contacted HDNet?

Is this the same degradation we're talking about, or a worsening of what I just made mention of?
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Old 04-11-2005, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by John Mason
Perhaps someone with a spare Tektronix 5000 or similar spectrum analyzer...
If you have access to the uncompressed digital video, you can use a software
spectrum analyzer. Here's a plot I made with a tool called SigView, that can
be downloaded for a 21 day trail (www.sigview.com). Basically, it's an FFT
of the luma values from a 4:2:2 YCbCr image.

The cutoff frequency of 1280 wide will be around 1280/1920 * 37.25 MHz, or
just under 25 MHz. As you can see from the plot, there is very little energy
above 25 MHz (and almost nothing above 28 MHz, which matches the cutoff
of 1440 wide quite nicely).

Ron
LL

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Old 04-11-2005, 06:09 PM
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A JPEG compressed and downrezzed version of the image used for the spectrum plot.

Ron
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Old 04-11-2005, 07:32 PM
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Got a nice email back from Dish stating "We have received quite a few complaints about the quality level of our HDTV offering's, we are inquiring the compression dept. and will be contacting you with the info we receive"

please every E* HDTV subscriber needs to email them and complain, heck wannabe future subscribers should let them know they are thinking of them

I also contacted Mark and let him know about the sliding picture quality of HDnet on E* and the future of HDnet regarging BUD, no dice on Bud, not enough interest or customer base, which he let me know very quickly, like within 10 mins of sending my mail

-Gary
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Old 04-11-2005, 07:59 PM
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Broadcast HDTV (OTA DTV and Cable/DBS) is a joke in the USA. Every get into a height ling and accept your new name: Ben Dover XXXXXXXX

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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Old 04-11-2005, 08:09 PM
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Posted by TheFerret, post #80
------------------------------------
Broadcast HDTV (OTA DTV and Cable/DBS) is a joke in the USA. Every get into a height ling and accept your new name: Ben Dover XXXXXXXX
----------------------------------------

Could you translate this please?

BTW, broadcasting generally refers to OTA. And OTA is the highest quality source of HD material available. It is subjected to less compression than you'll likely see via cable or sat. Perfect? No- they can always compress and multicast. But it's still likely to be the best. I put up an antenna, mast, tripod and amp for less than $100. And for no further charge, I get my local OTA broadcasts. That's pretty close to free. And when the new sets with LG/Zenith's new fifth generation tuner come out, they'll work with indoor antennas (like rabbit ears) for many people, cutting up front costs further.

What were you trying to say?

Reunite Pangea!
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Old 04-12-2005, 06:03 AM
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Ok, then please let evetyone know I am talking about commercially redistributed HDTV.

What I am saying is that the cable and or satellite operators are walking a business path that interfers with the integrity of the original composition of HD work and re-compressing it before it gets to the paying viewership.

I am not paying a monthly fee for near-bear (ahem, milk), I am paying for the real deal. I'm just being bamboozled to death by a-holes suits.

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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Old 04-12-2005, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by navychop


BTW, broadcasting generally refers to OTA. And OTA is the highest quality source of HD material available.
Only if your affiliate isnt multicasting. There is a point where Sat HD DNS could overtake local HD OTA if the multicasting is rampant.
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Old 04-12-2005, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Murrell
Got a nice email back from Dish stating "We have received quite a few complaints about the quality level of our HDTV offering's, we are inquiring the compression dept. and will be contacting you with the info we receive"

please every E* HDTV subscriber needs to email them and complain, heck wannabe future subscribers should let them know they are thinking of them

I also contacted Mark and let him know about the sliding picture quality of HDnet on E* and the future of HDnet regarging BUD, no dice on Bud, not enough interest or customer base, which he let me know very quickly, like within 10 mins of sending my mail

-Gary
LOL, Mark Cuban doesnt care, he thinks its necessary. D* and E* are putting money in his pocket and he will do nothing about it. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...28#post4829328

"They are absolutely correct to do this now. Thats part of the deal." - M. Cuban

You people that think Cuban is some kind of savior need to wakeup.:rolleyes:
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Old 04-12-2005, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vurbano
LOL, Mark Cuban doesnt care, he thinks its necessary. D* and E* are putting money in his pocket and he will do nothing about it. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...28#post4829328
"They are absolutely correct to do this now. Thats part of the deal." - M. Cuban
You people that think Cuban is some kind of savior need to wakeup.:rolleyes:
Ok, I am awake now. Bad Mr. Cuban, Bad!

Time to go cancel the HD Premium package ...

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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Old 04-12-2005, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by vurbano
LOL, Mark Cuban doesnt care, he thinks its necessary. D* and E* are putting money in his pocket and he will do nothing about it. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...28#post4829328

"They are absolutely correct to do this now. Thats part of the deal." - M. Cuban

You people that think Cuban is some kind of savior need to wakeup.:rolleyes:

You are correct, he could care less. I have emailed him and other employees of HDNET and they emailed me back essentially saying that they wish that this wasn't the case but that it is out of their control. If they really cared they would make it so it was within their control.
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Old 04-12-2005, 08:51 AM
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You got lucky. I emailed them about a month ago and got no reply.

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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Old 04-12-2005, 08:55 AM
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Just for the record, I am pleased with most of the HD programming I watch. There are some great programs on PBS and HDNET and Discovery HD Theater and so on. Of course, the quality of the images we see depends on the quality of the content. I have a Panny commercial plasma and an Infocus FP and we, as a family, are most pleased with what we see. Of course, there are always a few people (out of the total) who are clamoring for ever better results. And this is OK as well. But, for now, and for me, I am very happy and think many of the images I see in HD (to inclide live sports) are great! I must say, some of my favorite programs are still in Sd on channelsl like National Georgraphic and History Channel. With me, content is everything and, if in HD, that is a bonus! I started viewing satellite tv some 20 years ago by the way.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:02 AM
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mangopony, I think it should be recognized that some of the clamoring individuals do not like thinking they are paying for one thing only to get informed that they are receiving less than what they thought. Its the feeling they are being duped. How many can say they enjoying being duped?

If DirecTV (anyone, actually) wishes to publically advertise how they provide the programming they are selling and then allow consumers to make a more informed choice then this clamoring consumer would make his decision and get on with it.

But its the point of conjecture that if its better than 480i we should stop clamoring and continue as is that I have a problem with. Sure, its better than 480i but I didn't enter into a contract thinking I was getting something near-HD. Abuse is abuse no matter how you look at it. Clamoring or otherwise.

When will D* stop pushing HD-Lite while charging us for full HD? Digital input on a CRT is a reality, not a possibility.
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Old 04-12-2005, 09:09 AM
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Please have enough decency to not take his words out of context. And you wonder why you aren't taken seriously by people living in the real world. Also within the same posting...

"What I dont like is the emails I get to be reposted on the board. The 200 "did you knows". Yes I know. We pay attention to this on a minute by minute basis. Just like all of you, I would prefer 19.4mbs on every system for both channels. Its just not going to happen right now."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...28#post4829328

I guess they should close down and lay everyone off until it looks good to you.
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