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Old 09-22-2008, 07:13 PM
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Oh, forgot to mention -- isn't anyone struck with just how pat is Dean's escape from Fire and brimstone? -- all last season with that undercurrent, that dread, then the fulfillment and within seconds of the new season, he is out -- no torment, no suffering.

I am not buying it.

Additional small details -- the summoning of Castielle brings about shooting FLAMES from candles and SEARED eyes -- burnt out of their sockets -- as if peering into the furnace of Hell itself? Sure does not seem very Divine to me....
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Old 09-22-2008, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Emaych View Post


Additional small details -- the summoning of Castielle brings about shooting FLAMES from candles and SEARED eyes -- burnt out of their sockets -- as if peering into the furnace of Hell itself? Sure does not seem very Divine to me....

Ok. You bring up some really good points. Even has me thinking... What are they (writers) setting up? Although it is possible that could take some liberties with the Angelic character, veering from the traditional Dogma, so as to not become hindered by it.
Also, it is not necessarily a result of evil or demonic powers to have the eyes burnt out. The bible has several references to the fact that to look upon God or His goodness causes death. It's pure light/good... evil cannot exist in it's presence nor can humans withstand it. If anyone touched the ark, which housed God's spirit, they immediately died, God told Moses to hide in the mountain as his shadow passed him by and his hair turned white and the angel did warn her. So it could be seen as a result of looking upon pure light (which is described in scripture) but tweaked by the writers to have burnt eyes and bleeding ears to stay away from the full theology of scripture, which as you correctly pointed out could be a hindrance to the series. Maybe they're trying to walk a really thin line and trying to interject their own interpretation of Angels/God.
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul^G1138 View Post

Ok. You bring up some really good points. Even has me thinking... What are they (writers) setting up? Although it is possible that could take some liberties with the Angelic character, veering from the traditional Dogma, so as to not become hindered by it.
Also, it is not necessarily a result of evil or demonic powers to have the eyes burnt out. The bible has several references to the fact that to look upon God or His goodness causes death. It's pure light/good... evil cannot exist in it's presence nor can humans withstand it. If anyone touched the ark, which housed God's spirit, they immediately died, God told Moses to hide in the mountain as his shadow passed him by and his hair turned white and the angel did warn her. So it could be seen as a result of looking upon pure light (which is described in scripture) but tweaked by the writers to have burnt eyes and bleeding ears to stay away from the full theology of scripture, which as you correctly pointed out could be a hindrance to the series. Maybe they're trying to walk a really thin line and trying to interject their own interpretation of Angels/God.

Very interesting indeed! I was not aware of those aspects of the Bible concerning PURE GOODNESS, but interesting too that you mention the Ark -- Sam's mobile phone service in this episode was called "ARC MOBILE" -- so if this is Sam's service and another one of those inside references or clues that HE, Sam, is the one most closely aligned with God, it seems to indicate again that this personage claiming to be an Angel, but only contacting Dean when Sam is absent, may not himself be a Heavenly representative. More fuel to that particular theory. Thanks for the additional info!
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Old 09-22-2008, 08:47 PM
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I just got to say, that I loved that episode. Granted the old Ruby was hotter , but the direction and potential show down is gonna be fantastic.

yes Hotter,,,,,,and,,,,much better at looking devious. This Ruby looks and sounds too,,,,,,nice.

52" Samsung 750, finally satisfaction
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Old 09-25-2008, 11:42 AM
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The actor playing Castiel (Misha Collins) sure seems to think he's an angel. Probably because Eric Kripke told him he was.
http://community.tvguide.com/blog-en...lins/800047382
It's fun to speculate but sometimes things get over-analyzed.
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Old 09-25-2008, 02:43 PM
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Exodus 33: 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live." 21 Then the LORD said, "There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen."

As has been mentioned to be in the presence of God can lead to pretty messy consequences for the bad guys.


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Add this to the fact that I just cannot see Dean as a convert to our Lord, doing his happy business. That is not Dean. That is not this series. And all the complication of which theology to promote, etc., makes that a very very sticky wicket for the producers to wade into for network TV.

Well I think a whole redemption arc for Dean/his family would be a great way to end the series. I think the most telling line was Castiel looking into the depths of Dean's eyes and saying 'you don't think you deserve to be saved.' This is Dean's struggle: guilt, hardness of heart, not measuring up, burden of protecting Sam, the lack of self worth/respect, despair. Perfect opportunity for a messenger from on High.

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Old 09-25-2008, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by snuba View Post

The actor playing Castiel (Misha Collins) sure seems to think he's an angel. Probably because Eric Kripke told him he was.
http://community.tvguide.com/blog-en...lins/800047382
It's fun to speculate but sometimes things get over-analyzed.

Great article. Some nice spoilerage too. This is going to be a great season. As much as everyone has dismissed/rejected the idea of angels being brought in, I think, if done well it could really make for a great season.
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Old 09-25-2008, 08:16 PM
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Another good outing.
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:52 AM
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.....for a show that apparently not a lot of people watch!
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:02 AM
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I agree. Supernatural continues to raise the bar, yet for some reason can't seem to break that barrier from obscurity to mainstream. However that could be the reason it's doing so well.

I'm going to have to study up on the seals. It sounds like that will be the main arch of this season. The battles against the 66 seals, which I believe is some pretty heavy stuff.
I think they're playing the Angels great. Not soft, glowy or overly positive. Castiel is a warrior. A warrior for God yes...but he's still a trained soldier ready to fight and unapologetic about it. "6 of my brethren have died this week." He feels pain/loss and pretty much put Dean in his place.
I think this could actually be a great season and an amazing adventure into the battles of good/evil.
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:04 AM
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I watch. I thought it was good.

Wish I could get digital, HD, and 5.1, but stuck with crappy, ringing, analog (over cable even). It sure seems like they are really trying to get folks to not watch the CW here.

v/r,
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul^G1138 View Post

I agree. Supernatural continues to raise the bar, yet for some reason can't seem to break that barrier from obscurity to mainstream. However that could be the reason it's doing so well.

I'm going to have to study up on the seals. It sounds like that will be the main arch of this season. The battles against the 66 seals, which I believe is some pretty heavy stuff.
I think they're playing the Angels great. Not soft, glowy or overly positive. Castiel is a warrior. A warrior for God yes...but he's still a trained soldier ready to fight and unapologetic about it. "6 of my brethren have died this week." He feels pain/loss and pretty much put Dean in his place.
I think this could actually be a great season and an amazing adventure into the battles of good/evil.

I wouldn't spend too much time trying to true up Supernatural's version of Revelation with the actual one.

I have to put that on the shelf when I watch it, and just go along with whatever version of good vs. evil the writers are constructing. Kind of like trying not to laugh too hard at that TV movie of Noah's Ark a few years ago when Lot became a pirate and attacked the Ark! But...I digress.
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Old 09-26-2008, 07:52 AM
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I wouldn't spend too much time trying to true up Supernatural's version of Revelation with the actual one.

Exactly. I'm not planning on doing anything like that. Just wondering what kind of bad things the seals brought with them. As I'v said before. I think the writers are handling it the best way then can be veering off the actual biblical references a little as far as angels go. Give them a little edge/conflict.

It's actually refreshing to see someone actually attempt this. It's going to be a sweet ride. Hang on.
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Old 09-26-2008, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by CANNON-FODDER View Post

I watch. I thought it was good.

Wish I could get digital, HD, and 5.1, but stuck with crappy, ringing, analog (over cable even). It sure seems like they are really trying to get folks to not watch the CW here.

v/r,
C-F

I use to be in the same boat. My TW just recently added CW in HD. Dude, you don't know what you are missing. It is incredible. I could not believe the difference between the two. SOOOOO happy they switched!

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Old 09-26-2008, 09:32 AM
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I think they're playing the Angels great. Not soft, glowy or overly positive. Castiel is a warrior. A warrior for God yes...but he's still a trained soldier ready to fight and unapologetic about it. "6 of my brethren have died this week." He feels pain/loss and pretty much put Dean in his place.

i actually didn't understand this statement and hope they clarify later. 6 died? how? so far, every demon seems to be scared of castiel's power. so who (or what) out there is killing his brothers? if it's lillith who is killing the angels, the fact that she couldn't even kill sam makes that a very interesting plot point!

in any case, this season has started out awesome and i can't wait til the next ep.
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:13 AM
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"6 of my brethren have died this week." How exactly does an angel die? When Sam and Dean kill demons, don't they just go back to hell? So would angels just go back to heaven? That doesn't sound that bad to me.
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:24 AM
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i actually didn't understand this statement and hope they clarify later. 6 died? how? so far, every demon seems to be scared of castiel's power. so who (or what) out there is killing his brothers? if it's lillith who is killing the angels, the fact that she couldn't even kill sam makes that a very interesting plot point!

in any case, this season has started out awesome and i can't wait til the next ep.


Well, you'd have to consider that those demons aren't the 'big' players. Basically, they're the privates/sergeants at best. The upper echelon rarely involve themselves with the petty battles. They're the ones that contend with the angels.

Not sure about where angels go when they die or if they even go anywhere. I would guess that they just literally cease to exist. Angels, in the biblical context, don't have souls. However, this is 'Supernatural' universe. Who knows what they'll come up with. I do hope the explain it.

I'm guessing we'll see Lucifer in the finale. How will they pull that off will be something to talk about.
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:40 AM
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"6 of my brethren have died this week." How exactly does an angel die? When Sam and Dean kill demons, don't they just go back to hell? So would angels just go back to heaven? That doesn't sound that bad to me.

Well, I'm on lunch and have nothing else to do so I Googled the question of Angels and death. I got this. The passage is describing people that have accepted Christ and are resurrected to Heaven.

Luke 20:36
And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection.

So it says they'll never die & that makes them like the angels. So as far as the biblical reference, they don't die, but I'm sure they won't be following this or revelations by the letter so who knows what kind of explanation we'll get. Just thought I'd share what I found.

You know I don't think the Supernatural thread has ever had this much traffic before. Other seasons it would literally be days before anyone posted. Just an observation.
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Old 09-26-2008, 10:50 AM
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.....for a show that apparently not a lot of people watch!

Not on TV maybe, but apparently this show has well over a million viewers a week who have viewed it via...uh...alternative methods, supposedly one of the top 10 every week.
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Old 09-26-2008, 12:28 PM
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Not on TV maybe, but apparently this show has well over a million viewers a week who have viewed it via...uh...alternative methods, supposedly one of the top 10 every week.


I just hope these aren't Nielsen people....'cause they need to get with the program and make sure it stays on!
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Old 09-26-2008, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul^G1138 View Post

Well, I'm on lunch and have nothing else to do so I Googled the question of Angels and death. I got this. The passage is describing people that have accepted Christ and are resurrected to Heaven.

Luke 20:36
And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection.

So it says they'll never die & that makes them like the angels. So as far as the biblical reference, they don't die, but I'm sure they won't be following this or revelations by the letter so who knows what kind of explanation we'll get. Just thought I'd share what I found.

You know I don't think the Supernatural thread has ever had this much traffic before. Other seasons it would literally be days before anyone posted. Just an observation.


Yep. That's why it will not be possible to synch up Supernatural's theology with anything else. They are building their own set of rules, and that's fine for a secular Network TV show.

In fact, that's probably the safer route for a show of this nature. Otherwise they run the risk of identifying too closely with a specific religious belief system. This way, they can either offend everybody equally, or hopefully people will just accept it for what it is: entertainment with a few ficticious spiritual conventions thrown in.
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Old 09-26-2008, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by snuba View Post

The actor playing Castiel (Misha Collins) sure seems to think he's an angel. Probably because Eric Kripke told him he was.
http://community.tvguide.com/blog-en...lins/800047382
It's fun to speculate but sometimes things get over-analyzed.

Thanks for the link! With regard to that, Kripke evidently told him he was going to be playing a Demon too -- that is what the actor prepared for (to keep the Angel thing under wraps). Then Kripke changes up -- the Angel thing is out, so Kripke has the actor thinking he is playing an Angel -- is this to keep something else under wraps? In any event, I'm sure Kripke has shared enough with the actor to get the kind of nuanced performance he is looking for.

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Well I think a whole redemption arc for Dean/his family would be a great way to end the series. I think the most telling line was Castiel looking into the depths of Dean's eyes and saying 'you don't think you deserve to be saved.' This is Dean's struggle: guilt, hardness of heart, not measuring up, burden of protecting Sam, the lack of self worth/respect, despair. Perfect opportunity for a messenger from on High.

This is close to the point I was making last week -- if this is a character arc, it spells the end of the series as we know it. I can't (and don't want to) visualize how Dean becomes something other than Dean -- can you retain the fan base and sustain what viewers have come to expect and want?

But it has been mentioned and certainly may be the case, that if Kripke has introduced Angels so far off traditional interpretation, and hence what we imagine them to be, then all bets are off -- if these "Angels" are embarking on a rampage of death and destruction, then that is not exactly going to lead to the same place as if they were more in keeping with the concept of "Holy keepers of the Grace of The Lord," so to speak.

I have not seen this weeks episode yet, but figured I'd deal with any spoilers as I'll see the episode 3 or 4 times overall I'm sure -- part of the reason being that Hellacious 5.1 sound, which our new affiliate does not have yet, but it is something spectacular on this show!
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Old 09-26-2008, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Emaych View Post

I have not seen this weeks episode yet, but figured I'd deal with any spoilers as I'll see the episode 3 or 4 times overall I'm sure -- part of the reason being that Hellacious 5.1 sound, which our new affiliate does not have yet, but it is something spectacular on this show!

I miss the 5.1. We sold our house a couple of months ago. Thankfully before the market went south. Got full price for it and threw in my 5.1 ceiling mounted speakers with reciever + DVD player. Now I have a great excuse to upgrade.

The opening "THEN" sequences have been great! Love the music. However, I'm not getting the full impact being that I have no surround system, but I'm at least watching the HD feed.
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:10 PM
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I miss the 5.1. We sold our house a couple of months ago. Thankfully before the market went south. Got full price for it and threw in my 5.1 ceiling mounted speakers with reciever + DVD player. Now I have a great excuse to upgrade.

The opening "THEN" sequences have been great! Love the music. However, I'm not getting the full impact being that I have no surround system, but I'm at least watching the HD feed.

Good for you on the Real Estate! -- not a second too soon! But this show not in surround IS tough though! (even though the SQ is thoroughly excellent so is likely better than most even at that). Our affiliate changed stations -- FOX swapped out for the CW and vice versa, so now no Dolby Digital 5.1 -- they say new equipment needs to be installed, but at least my system is perfected to the extent that surround matrixed from two channels is pretty damn good! -- but two channels only, without 7 speakers slamming you to the wall? -- undoubtedly a step backward....

And you are right about the music! Whatever they do to present it, it sounds better than I've ever heard it before on this show! Man, when Dean found that pod barnacle in his ride and accidently sampled some of Sam's tunes -- I was in rock and roll nirvana! (...well, maybe that last bit is not so true....it was good for a laugh though)
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Old 09-27-2008, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

Yep. That's why it will not be possible to synch up Supernatural's theology with anything else. They are building their own set of rules, and that's fine for a secular Network TV show.

In fact, that's probably the safer route for a show of this nature. Otherwise they run the risk of identifying too closely with a specific religious belief system. This way, they can either offend everybody equally, or hopefully people will just accept it for what it is: entertainment with a few ficticious spiritual conventions thrown in.

With last weeks show, I said this:

"Not that I expect a TV series to answer any large questions, especially ones dealing with mysteries of the ages (e.g., why is evil allowed to exist? What is the cosmic significance of the power balance of good vs. evil? What is "good"? What is "evil"? etc.), but the point is, questions are the only element yet introduced that I see so far..."

It was telling to me that in this latest outing, we had Dean asking (rhetorically really) why God would allow evil to exist, apparently unchecked, and even more telling still that Sam and Bobby wouldn't touch it. Though the depth this show has revealed over time continues only to get richer, I still am not anticipating it will tackle in any realistic sense, the great theological questions of the ages and it would be an immense misstep I think to embrace a specific theological doctrine.

My cursory research did not turn up reference to 66 seals in Christianity, rather seven:

"The seven seals began with announcements of riders commissioned to bring calamities."

Those seals followed upon by more fates, seven in number, which pretty much bring history to the final denouement. So what can we make of the 66 seals here? Castielle refers to six brethren killed and 66 seals -- looks like he's using the popularized mark of the beast in somewhat cryptic form to impart a yet veiled meaning, but an "Angel" that uses the mark of the Devil as the calling card to whatever portent he represents? -- not a good sign for Divine affiliation, if you ask me.

So far, with this episode, the producers have played this just right -- for the most part, it was very standard SUPERNATURAL fare, with the added gravity and breadth of an ongoing thematic undercurrent, but it is a tightrope walk to bring in theology, not to mention that once THE BIG BOYS battle, where can the series then head? In Christian terms, that is pretty much it, as far as Earth being the battleground, but then again, with the current collapse of the markets, perhaps this series will end up exactly mirroring the decline of civilization as we know it!

Looking forward to a great season!

Local update: the Presidential debate was in 5.1! This means next week we should be good to go for SUPERNATURAL in all its surround glory! -- unfortunately not in time for this last episode, but it will air again, or better still be on Blu-ray as is season 3 right now...now just have to get the player (and possibly ditch this poor investment in yet another obselete format...slightly used HD DVD player anyone?)
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Old 09-27-2008, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by WilliamR View Post

I use to be in the same boat. My TW just recently added CW in HD. Dude, you don't know what you are missing. It is incredible. I could not believe the difference between the two. SOOOOO happy they switched!

Not recently, but we had HD UPN/WB/CW stations in Kansas City.
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"6 of my brethren have died this week." How exactly does an angel die? When Sam and Dean kill demons, don't they just go back to hell? So would angels just go back to heaven? That doesn't sound that bad to me.

I thought the series began with the exorcism in that way, however it has evolved...
  • [Pre-Colt]
    • exorcisms send demons back to hell
    • demons were afraid, not just annoyed at being exorcised
    • implying there was some challenge to their getting out
  • [Post-Colt Pre-Ruby]
    • now one Colt may really-really-kill demons
    • However, this was balanced and limited to only [six or so] cartridges
    • it was unique, no one else could design and make this weapon
    • the opening of the "gate" had great significance as it let lots of demons out.
  • [Post-Ruby]
    • Ruby's knife which can also really-really-kill demons
    • Ruby's knife is balanced and limited by skill and range, not number of uses
    • Ruby can teach Bobby how to rebuild the Colt and produce more cartridges
    • Exorcisms that do not seem to send demons back to hell for long
    • Unknown powers of Sammy boy, is he exorcising them, or killing them, or just pulling them out of the host?
Not a "final answer", just thinking through the evolution this morning...

v/r,
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Old 09-27-2008, 10:50 AM
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^ nice summary.

Thing is, I don't know how well the writers have thought out what they are doing (that's not necessarily a criticism---just a question). With a series like this that seems underwatched in the ratings (though, as noted above, viewed by "alternate" means), I wonder how far out they have planned.

It seems like each time they get a renewal, there is a shift in their universe. This year it is the introduction of "angels". Were they planned all along? What form of being are these?

In some books, angels are created spirit beings who can take on the appearance of a physical human. As spirits, they can't "die" or "cease to exist". The same would be true for "fallen angels" (as opposed to "demons" who some would argue are two classes of beings). In Supernatural's mythology, there is at least an indication that the angels and demons can "die" or "cease to exist" under certain circumstances (such as the presence of a Colt or a special knife).

There was a pretty interesting TV movie series called Fallen a while back that created a rather rich mythology concerning angels and "fallen" angels. I have high hopes that Supernatural will be able to top or surpass that.
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Old 09-27-2008, 12:51 PM
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when season 2 started, they interviewed kripke and he said he was planning season 4 at the time...they're thinking at least 2 years ahead.

I cannot give this show enough credit for maintaining some kind of plausibility in the overall arcs/storylines...compare this to drivel like 24, where they can't even sustain the show for a season without some ridiculous crap that's pulled out of thin air.
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Old 09-27-2008, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Rakesh.S View Post

when season 2 started, they interviewed kripke and he said he was planning season 4 at the time...they're thinking at least 2 years ahead.

I cannot give this show enough credit for maintaining some kind of plausibility in the overall arcs/storylines...compare this to drivel like 24, where they can't even sustain the show for a season without some ridiculous crap that's pulled out of thin air.

I agree, as much as some of this stuff seems so outlandish, it's presented in a way that makes it far more "believable" that crap like 24, Prison Break, etc. and they even have humor without detracting from that sense of "realism".

I just pray that the show will be able to end properly without getting canceled first, The CW doesn't have much life left in it IMO...
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Old 09-28-2008, 10:23 AM
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I agree, as much as some of this stuff seems so outlandish, it's presented in a way that makes it far more "believable" that crap like 24, Prison Break, etc. and they even have humor without detracting from that sense of "realism".

I just pray that the show will be able to end properly without getting canceled first, The CW doesn't have much life left in it IMO...

Interestingly, I mentioned over the weekend one of my favorite shows to my sister in the context of a story about equipment failure. She wanted to know what the show was. It was SUPERNATURAL. I explained the conceit of the show -- investigation of paranormal/supernatural phenomena, Demon hunting, and late developments, Dean going to Hell, the apparent insertion/emergence of Angels as counterbalance in this antipodean paradigm. My sister looked somewhat disgusted and declared that she couldn't imagine finding interest in such frivolous, silly stuff.

Having heard much of late regarding her recommitment to faith, I challenged why she would say such stuff was absurd and not absolutely reflective of the veiled maelstrom of moral-warrior engagement that I thought she believed in. I don't think there was a ready answer there. It DOES seem as if it might very well be pretty silly, yet folks profess faith in such things even without recognizing their own belief system when "repackaged."

In fact part of my objection to bringing Angels into the mix involves people taking such elements of faith so seriously and so literally -- I can only see that it severely limits the series potential overall, but as to this kind of fare generally being thought of as farcical or so extreme as to not merit serious treatment for the most part -- I agree completely. This is one of the brilliant successes of this show, even, as was noted, with sly humor throughout, this show never loses its dramatic edge, versimilitude or plausability -- a very very tall order.

Reason? I credit the extraordinary acting. The same thing that elevated LORD OF THE RINGS to such amazing heights: the thoroughly convincing, fully fleshed-out characters raise the bar on this genre for all time.

Ackles is one of THE finest actors I've ever seen -- film, TV, stage, bar none. Even the supporting players are uniformly exquisite. Notably just one example is Sterling K. Brown who played Gordon Walker, Hunter turned Vampire -- simply riveting and sublime as either menacing foil for the boys' "polite," "merciful" and/or "moral" hunting methodologies, or blood-spitting, nasty neck-gnasher, he held your rapt attentions whenever on screen. Just this month this Stanford-trained actor appears opposite both DeNiro and Pacino in their latest outing.

And yes, I certainly do hope this series survives as long as possible...would it be in any way seen as leaning one way or another that I too pray for this?
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