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post #18991 of 19011 Old 08-22-2016, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by jrref View Post
So can't we say most or all of this for all of the cable companies? Why just pick on Verizon? If you step back and think about it, if we never had FiOS who knows how crappy our service from the cable companies would be without that competition! Oh and yes I used to work for Verizon and yes there are a lot of really talented and caring people who created and support FiOS but the reason why you don't see a flood of new technology from the cable companies is because of the cost. The mainstream population doesn't want to pay for it and the problem is that the content providers keep raising the cost of programming which drives up the companies costs. Could the cable companies still lower prices and make less profit, sure but that still wouldn't close the gap. I believe we will start seeing 4K and other technologies once these companies switch to IPTV. At the end of the day, FiOS isn't perfect but when you compare side by side with the cable companies, the PQ is usually much better even with all the compression, etc.. Once we get to IPTV I hope all these issues will go away and we will get an even better picture. We will have to wait and see what happens.
It's even more pathetic for FIOS since cable is very bandwidth constrained. Cable could and should do more to deal with their bandwidth crunch, but FIOS has effectively zero bandwidth limitations, since they can use IPTV if they wanted to, which on GPON, has no practical limits for 4k, HD, etc, etc. FIOS hasn't even converted to MPEG-4 for most channels, and they've just compressed the channels more. Sure, cable is far worse, so FIOS has the edge there, but only by being less bad, not by actually being good. With GPON FTTH, they could be sending IPTV streams directly off of C-Band like Google Fiber is. They could also offer symmetrical gigabit to any customer that currently has the equipment for 150/150 or above installed, but they won't.

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If the FCC ever passes their STB ruling maybe I can get rid of the Fios STBs one day?
TiVo.
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post #18992 of 19011 Old 08-22-2016, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
TiVo.
No thanks. Tivo = walled garden. Silicondust allows me to manipulate/save anything I want in the clear that's not DRM (e.g. HBO & Fox).
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post #18993 of 19011 Old 08-23-2016, 01:40 PM
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My FiOS story. I was a CV customer for over 20 years. As soon as internet was available, I rushed to The Wiz (CV used them as a pick-up for the modems). As soon as DVR was available, I went to the CV store to switch out my SA4200HD. For the last couple of years, I paid the extra $5 for boost (50/25). A no brainer IMO.

All this time I kept hearing from friends, family, colleagues how great FiOS is. I signed up for the email notification as to when they would enter my building. That was three years ago.

So late last year (November 2015) installation was complete! I was pumped. Sales teams arrived at the lobby of my building to start signing people up. I talked to a rep who asked me if I'm a sports fan. I said "Of course! Huge Yankee fan" (I live in the Bronx). He then proceeded to tell me that "I will see the stitches on a fastball going 100mph!" It took every fiber of my being to not roll my eyes. I told him I would take the literature upstairs and get back to him. To be honest, the conversation left me a little cold.

I decided to do this online for obvious reasons. Especially because if done online, you save install fees. At the time the current offer was a $400 VISA card if I sign a 2-year contract. For $129 a month I get 50/50 Mbps, Digital Voice, HBO, Showtime, Starz. The bill goes up to $209 for the 2nd year.

Once I got through ALL those options, I had to leave a $250 deposit that is refundable after the 1st year as long as my account is in good standing. More cold feelings. I call BS since there's no deposit required if I forgo the contract and the $400 VISA promo. I then decided to call CV to get them to lower my bill. Why not? There’s competition now. And they did by $50.

That was seven months ago. I decided to give FiOS another shot. And this time I got the deal I want sans contract, sans deposit and sans Visa card. No big deal. My wife would’ve just spend it anyway LOL!

What was the tipping point for me leaving CV? The Samsung MDVR. I was having a lot of issues with the SA8300HD that served me well for over 10 years. They suggested I go for the Samsung. Of course they do. It’s $4 more p/month. But I can record up to 15 shows at once with no conflicts. Sounded great! Boy was I wrong! It is an absolute horrible experience. The playback response is so bad I felt it was not worth it. So instead of going back to the traditional DVR, I signed up for FiOS.

I got the Extreme HD w/hard drive based DVR (non-Quantum), 100/100 internet and voice. At least the hard drive is 500GB. The CV one was 80GB I believe. Maybe 160GB. So it is a big upgrade. The biggest thing to get used to is the Guide and menu system. It is pretty daunting and a huge learning curve. It’s been three weeks now and I am still learning new things.

Believe it or not the speed does not feel twice as fast. I was getting 50/25 from CV. And it was pretty good. Also, I give the CV PQ a slight edge. You heard that right! CV called me the next day to try to get me back. I told them that I’ve been a customer for over 20 years and felt it was time for a change. I also said “who knows, I may be back”. He took it well and wished me luck. We shall see. I’m glad I’m not locked for two years. And my advise is to seriously consider that. A lot of people get seduced by the deal that requires a contract. I cannot easily be seduced…LOL!

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post #18994 of 19011 Old 08-23-2016, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ctbarker32 View Post
No thanks. Tivo = walled garden. Silicondust allows me to manipulate/save anything I want in the clear that's not DRM (e.g. HBO & Fox).
TiVo is the best DVR ever made, hands down. Silicondust is interesting in theory, except that their DVR software in unproven (is it even widely available yet ?), and Windows MCE died with Windows 10, and was awful in the first place. In my case here in CT, we don't have FIOS, so I will probably be giving up my TiVo at some point in favor of DirecTV.
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post #18995 of 19011 Old 08-24-2016, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
TiVo is the best DVR ever made, hands down. Silicondust is interesting in theory, except that their DVR software in unproven (is it even widely available yet ?), and Windows MCE died with Windows 10, and was awful in the first place. In my case here in CT, we don't have FIOS, so I will probably be giving up my TiVo at some point in favor of DirecTV.
There is so much wrong and FUD about your post that is hard to know where to begin.
  1. I've been using Silicondust HDHomeRun Primes DVR for close to a year. It has steadily improved and works well. Is it perfect? No, but it keeps getting better.
  2. I used Windows MCE for years and contrary to your assertions, many users believed it to be the ultimate DVR solution.
  3. Obviously you are a Tivo bigot without firsthand knowledge of other products.
  4. Finally, please tell me how I can save/archive copies of my recordings to external media without going through backflips. With MCE and now Silicondust, I can save/archive the direct MPEG2 files to hard disks or Blu-ray data discs for posterity. I'm not aware that Tivo allows you to do this in any form?
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post #18996 of 19011 Old 08-24-2016, 11:56 AM
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TiVo's best days may be behind them. Especially with Rovi at the helm. And so far the Rovi guide data transitions is a disaster!

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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
TiVo is the best DVR ever made, hands down. Silicondust is interesting in theory, except that their DVR software in unproven (is it even widely available yet ?), and Windows MCE died with Windows 10, and was awful in the first place. In my case here in CT, we don't have FIOS, so I will probably be giving up my TiVo at some point in favor of DirecTV.
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post #18997 of 19011 Old 08-24-2016, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ctbarker32 View Post
There is so much wrong and FUD about your post that is hard to know where to begin.
  1. I've been using Silicondust HDHomeRun Primes DVR for close to a year. It has steadily improved and works well. Is it perfect? No, but it keeps getting better.
  2. I used Windows MCE for years and contrary to your assertions, many users believed it to be the ultimate DVR solution.
  3. Obviously you are a Tivo bigot without firsthand knowledge of other products.
  4. Finally, please tell me how I can save/archive copies of my recordings to external media without going through backflips. With MCE and now Silicondust, I can save/archive the direct MPEG2 files to hard disks or Blu-ray data discs for posterity. I'm not aware that Tivo allows you to do this in any form?
-CB
To be fair, I haven't used SiliconDust's DVR software. Maybe it's all great and amazing, and as good as TiVo. But I can directly address MCE. MCE is a nightmare. I had it for a couple of months before I gave up on it and got a TiVo like I should have in the first place. It is unreliable, the interface sucks, it's confusing as all get-out to change settings, and there are basically no good remotes out there for it, compared to TiVo , where you get the Peanut, which is the best remote ever made. I dislike TiVo the company, but the TiVo product is best-in-class, with the exception of the awful cable TV services it has to connect to, but that's out of their control.

Through TiVo Desktop, you can extract video and save it on a computer or other media, although DVRs really aren't meant to be archival devices. MCE encrypts their files by default as well, do either way you have to jump through a few hoops to decrypt them. Yes, with MCE you're already on the computer, but there are tools out there that make it relatively easy on TiVo.

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TiVo's best days may be behind them. Especially with Rovi at the helm. And so far the Rovi guide data transitions is a disaster!
There are definitely some issues with TiVo. They are also slow as molasses to add features, but no one else even bothers to compete in the space, so TiVo is still the best
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post #18998 of 19011 Old 08-25-2016, 06:47 AM
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It's even more pathetic for FIOS since cable is very bandwidth constrained. Cable could and should do more to deal with their bandwidth crunch, but FIOS has effectively zero bandwidth limitations, since they can use IPTV if they wanted to, which on GPON, has no practical limits for 4k, HD, etc, etc. FIOS hasn't even converted to MPEG-4 for most channels, and they've just compressed the channels more. Sure, cable is far worse, so FIOS has the edge there, but only by being less bad, not by actually being good. With GPON FTTH, they could be sending IPTV streams directly off of C-Band like Google Fiber is. They could also offer symmetrical gigabit to any customer that currently has the equipment for 150/150 or above installed, but they won't.



TiVo.
I hear you but the bottom line is that Verizon is going to only offer services that customers are willing to pay for and not what the capabilities of the technology can offer. I'm sure there are a lot of tech savvy customers like you who would be willing to pay a little more for premium services but the vast majority will not. As time goes on, i'm sure we will see faster speeds and IP TV. BTW they are now offering 100/100 mbs for the basic package here in NY which they just introduced recently. Having sold FiOS for about 8 years, I can tell you that for most people, 100/100 is overkill but I agree it is nice to have options for those who want to pay for them.

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post #18999 of 19011 Old 08-25-2016, 06:59 PM
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I hear you but the bottom line is that Verizon is going to only offer services that customers are willing to pay for and not what the capabilities of the technology can offer. I'm sure there are a lot of tech savvy customers like you who would be willing to pay a little more for premium services but the vast majority will not. As time goes on, i'm sure we will see faster speeds and IP TV. BTW they are now offering 100/100 mbs for the basic package here in NY which they just introduced recently. Having sold FiOS for about 8 years, I can tell you that for most people, 100/100 is overkill but I agree it is nice to have options for those who want to pay for them.
So their only marketing now is that they are NOT [insert incumbent cable provider here]? They should have differentiated themselves with gigabit internet and kept the absolute best picture quality possible, but they didn't do either. Now they have nothing to differentiate, so they are just another provider. They haven't used their inherent bandwidth advantage to keep ahead of the cable companies in a meaningful way. Even with QAM-based video, they could have gone to MPEG-4 entirely for HD with 4 HD's per QAM, and offered gigabit symmetrical for $70/mo, and cable would not have been able to even touch that. But they decided to just offer what cable offered, and just be basically another cable company.
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To be fair, I haven't used SiliconDust's DVR software. Maybe it's all great and amazing, and as good as TiVo. But I can directly address MCE. MCE is a nightmare. I had it for a couple of months before I gave up on it and got a TiVo like I should have in the first place. It is unreliable, the interface sucks, it's confusing as all get-out to change settings, and there are basically no good remotes out there for it, compared to TiVo , where you get the Peanut, which is the best remote ever made. I dislike TiVo the company, but the TiVo product is best-in-class, with the exception of the awful cable TV services it has to connect to, but that's out of their control.

Through TiVo Desktop, you can extract video and save it on a computer or other media, although DVRs really aren't meant to be archival devices. MCE encrypts their files by default as well, do either way you have to jump through a few hoops to decrypt them. Yes, with MCE you're already on the computer, but there are tools out there that make it relatively easy on TiVo.
Yikes, not much of this is true regarding WMC.
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post #19001 of 19011 Old Yesterday, 02:27 PM
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Yikes, not much of this is true regarding WMC.
I've actually USED MCE, and I know how horrible it is. I also know how TiVo's archival process works. So yes, I do know what I'm talking about.
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I've actually USED MCE, and I know how horrible it is. I also know how TiVo's archival process works. So yes, I do know what I'm talking about.
Be that as it may, there's still a bunch of incorrect info in your post.
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It's even more pathetic for FIOS since cable is very bandwidth constrained. Cable could and should do more to deal with their bandwidth crunch, but FIOS has effectively zero bandwidth limitations, since they can use IPTV if they wanted to, which on GPON, has no practical limits for 4k, HD, etc, etc. FIOS hasn't even converted to MPEG-4 for most channels, and they've just compressed the channels more. Sure, cable is far worse, so FIOS has the edge there, but only by being less bad, not by actually being good. With GPON FTTH, they could be sending IPTV streams directly off of C-Band like Google Fiber is. They could also offer symmetrical gigabit to any customer that currently has the equipment for 150/150 or above installed, but they won't.
Too bad people are not subbing to Google's TV Service (and not as many as expected to their internet service either). No matter how good it is, unless it makes money - the Company will cave. Just last week Google fired 50% of their staff that worked with Google Fiber because they are so far below what they projected.

Google is following directly in the steps of FiOS. They had the best product - but in the end, even with a better mousetrap, people did not beat a line to use the service.
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post #19004 of 19011 Unread Yesterday, 11:06 PM
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Google is following directly in the steps of FiOS. They had the best product - but in the end, even with a better mousetrap, people did not beat a line to use the service.

because in the end most people only care about the bottom line- price...having superior HD image quality or fastest internet speeds don't mean much to the Average Joe
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because in the end most people only care about the bottom line- price...having superior HD image quality or fastest internet speeds don't mean much to the Average Joe
Which explains why Google Fiber has less than 200k subs after 2 years and was originally designed to have 5Million in the first 5 years.

When Google fires 50% of the Google Fiber staff, that tells the tale.
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Which explains why Google Fiber has less than 200k subs after 2 years and was originally designed to have 5Million in the first 5 years.

When Google fires 50% of the Google Fiber staff, that tells the tale.

Well, for starters, don't install your cutting edge service in the locations that they did. People in those areas don't give a crap about the latest and greatest. You install them in densely populated "high tech" cities and you will get immensely more subscribers. I'm sure the "test cities" were chosen because it was easy to get access to be able to install the fiber, but it was a terrible idea for a business model. Google, of all companies, should know that.

Not to mention, they obviously didn't do their homework on how difficult it was going to be to get access to poles, etc. to be able to provide service to everyone. Of course the existing companies are fighting them tooth and nail, because they know most customers would switch to Google. Not necessarily for the "latest and greatest", but most subscribers are just fed up with the customer service that they are receiving from their current providers. Besides, people in a lot of locations are being raped because their provider has a monopoly in their area.

I'll take a fiber cable over wireless any day, but I really hope Google's wireless plan works out, because they need to be in the market. The existing providers are mostly terrible. Competition is good for the consumer.
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Well, for starters, don't install your cutting edge service in the locations that they did. People in those areas don't give a crap about the latest and greatest. You install them in densely populated "high tech" cities and you will get immensely more subscribers. I'm sure the "test cities" were chosen because it was easy to get access to be able to install the fiber, but it was a terrible idea for a business model. Google, of all companies, should know that.
Yes, Austin is known as being so far behind when it comes to tech

~53k Video Subs......amazing.

Voom had ~30k when it shut down....over 10 years ago.

Your contention is that Google can only work in Silicon Valley, which would make it dead before the roll out.

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Of course the existing companies are fighting them tooth and nail, because they know most customers would switch to Google. Not necessarily for the "latest and greatest", but most subscribers are just fed up with the customer service that they are receiving from their current providers. Besides, people in a lot of locations are being raped because their provider has a monopoly in their area.
You are making statements that facts do not back up.

As seen from the sub counts, most customers DID NOT SWITCH to Google.

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You are making statements that facts do not back up.

As seen from the sub counts, most customers DID NOT SWITCH to Google.

Again, locations.

If their wireless model takes off and they get service into a lot more areas, we'll revisit this in a year or so and see who was correct.
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Again, locations.

If their wireless model takes off and they get service into a lot more areas, we'll revisit this in a year or so and see who was correct.
So according to you, it will only work in small isolated Silicon Valley tech areas.

That's not a business - nor mass appeal.

You are making the same excuses posters used to explain FiOS lack of success 6-8+ years ago. Even after expansion, it never had the uptake people claimed it would - and we saw Verizon cutback (just a Google Fiber is doing now).

Furthermore, this is the AVS Home Theater Discussion>HDTV>HDTV Programming Thread. And the Focus is TV.

Again, 53k Video Subs.

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Be that as it may, there's still a bunch of incorrect info in your post.
Like what?

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Too bad people are not subbing to Google's TV Service (and not as many as expected to their internet service either). No matter how good it is, unless it makes money - the Company will cave. Just last week Google fired 50% of their staff that worked with Google Fiber because they are so far below what they projected.

Google is following directly in the steps of FiOS. They had the best product - but in the end, even with a better mousetrap, people did not beat a line to use the service.
I find it amazing that anyone would NOT subscribe to their internet. The TV is another story. Apparently their DVR kind of sucks, even though the picture quality is better than anything else out there. They also don't have the scale to put together the massive lineup that DirecTV has, even though it would be technologically trivial with IPTV.

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So according to you, it will only work in small isolated Silicon Valley tech areas.

That's not a business - nor mass appeal.

You are making the same excuses posters used to explain FiOS lack of success 6-8+ years ago. Even after expansion, it never had the uptake people claimed it would - and we saw Verizon cutback (just a Google Fiber is doing now).
The fact of the matter is that by any reasonable standard, FIOS has provided an ROI far earlier than reasonably expected, and is quite profitable even with a ~20% take rate. Unfortunately, quite profitable and a good ROI is not good enough for the morons running Verizon, i.e. Shamwow and McWireless. Basic math escapes these pea-brains to the point where they just see massive profits in wireless and can't understand the concept of actually building telecom infrastructure with a reasonable ROI, so the last ~35% of their customers that don't have FIOS yet will likely never see FIOS outside of a few parts of Boston or maybe Alexandria. If the idiots running Verizon had any brains they would have gone 100% FIOS, and continued with their plan to stop maintaining copper and converting people over to fiber.
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I find it amazing that anyone would NOT subscribe to their internet. The TV is another story. Apparently their DVR kind of sucks, even though the picture quality is better than anything else out there. They also don't have the scale to put together the massive lineup that DirecTV has, even though it would be technologically trivial with IPTV.
There you go again.

Reality is most do not sub to their Internet.

Furthermore Directv has better HD (and UHD) picture quality than a Fios now.


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The fact of the matter is that by any reasonable standard, FIOS has provided an ROI far earlier than reasonably expected, and is quite profitable even with a ~20% take rate. Unfortunately, quite profitable and a good ROI is not good enough for the morons running Verizon, i.e. Shamwow and McWireless. Basic math escapes these pea-brains to the point where they just see massive profits in wireless and can't understand the concept of actually building telecom infrastructure with a reasonable ROI, so the last ~35% of their customers that don't have FIOS yet will likely never see FIOS outside of a few parts of Boston or maybe Alexandria. If the idiots running Verizon had any brains they would have gone 100% FIOS, and continued with their plan to stop maintaining copper and converting people over to fiber.
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FiOS has not returned a better ROI than expected.

As of 5 years ago the FiOS investment was over $23B. Based on 10K filings, it's probably double that now. You fail to take that into consideration.

Looking at a EBITDA Margin prior to all these factors are taken out at 20% might seem good to you, but Verizon overall has returned 60% every year for 10 years.

When you look at the true return, Wireline is slightly over 7%....and FiOS is 77% of wireline.

Furthermore, Copper is higher margin than FiOS as you cannot charge $8 for call waiting and $10 for caller id on FiOS.

Thus FiOS real margin is well under 7%.

A pretty crappy return.

If FiOS was printing money, they would not have stopped the presses.
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