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post #1 of 18332 Old 06-06-2005, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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I have heard about the new Verizon FIOS internet and TV services being rolled out across the country. My question is since they are using fiber optics to transmit their signal and with giving them additional bandwidth, will Comcast be ready to compete with them for pure channel capacity?
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post #2 of 18332 Old 06-06-2005, 03:07 PM
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I might even go back to SBC if they did this.

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post #3 of 18332 Old 06-06-2005, 05:06 PM
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It's way too soon to tell.

If the pipe is big enough, which it should be, then it's a matter of what it's filled with.

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post #4 of 18332 Old 06-06-2005, 06:16 PM
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I think that cable companies now run their own fiber into your neighborhood. I don't think that they are going to be too bad off.

The ones I would worry about would be those who are going to depend on that old copper pair to deliver that last mile of service. I'd much rather have a nice fat RG-11 going into the house than a twisted pair.

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post #5 of 18332 Old 06-06-2005, 06:19 PM
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Most cable companies bring the fiber to a node that serves about 100 homes. Depending on your area density, that could be close or far from your house. Either way, it wouldn't take a complete plant upgrade for cable to offer a similar product. Plus, new cable technology (docsis 3.0) is enabling a large amount of bandwidth to the customer.

I do agree FIOS is finally a good alternative to cable. Hopefully with competition they will both improve their product.
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post #6 of 18332 Old 06-06-2005, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CycloneGT View Post

I think that cable companies now run their own fiber into your neighborhood. I don't think that they are going to be too bad off.

The ones I would worry about would be those who are going to depend on that old copper pair to deliver that last mile of service. I'd much rather have a nice fat RG-11 going into the house than a twisted pair.



LOL. Trust me when I say the plant for that last mile is NOT twisted
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post #7 of 18332 Old 06-06-2005, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SonyHD View Post

I have heard about the new Verizon FIOS internet and TV services being rolled out across the country. My question is since they are using fiber optics to transmit their signal and with giving them additional bandwidth, will Comcast be ready to compete with them for pure channel capacity?

They really don't have to yet, it will be years and years and years before FIOS has the penetration that cable has. Plus, FIOS is running into regulatory issues sometimes on a franchise by franchise rate.
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post #8 of 18332 Old 06-06-2005, 11:42 PM
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RG11??? wtf? my whole house is wired for RG6. i have to reqire all that??? not to mention get new cable for the inside cabling? man.... that makes me upset
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post #9 of 18332 Old 06-07-2005, 05:46 AM
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Posts here within the past month outlined plans by cable companies to start 'switched broadcast' selection of channels. Time Warner, supposedly, will start it shortly and other large companies must be considering it, too. (See background article ). Such switched channel selection, something like video on demand (VOD) but with no hard-disk head-end drives, would let lower-bandwidth head ends deliver huge channel capacities without upgrading to 860+ MHz bandwidths. Instead of currently tuning channels from a complete menu instantly available at each subscriber's STB, the switched-broadcast technique tunes channels only available at local hubs or head ends.

Widely accessed channels, it appears, would still be sent to each STB all the time. There's no reason fiber-to-the-home (or curb) teleco installations couldn't use the same technique. But an all-fiber setup should be able to deliver all channels directly (and constantly) to each STB. -- John
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post #10 of 18332 Old 06-07-2005, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ou8thisSN View Post

RG11??? wtf? my whole house is wired for RG6. i have to reqire all that??? not to mention get new cable for the inside cabling? man.... that makes me upset

He's talking about the cable to the house - not cabling within the house.
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post #11 of 18332 Old 06-07-2005, 06:32 AM
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hehe, I don't think I'd want RG-11 in the house, that stuff is thick.

RG-11 is a thicker coax which is used outside of the house by the cable co. You would not ever rewire your house with RG-11 internally.

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post #12 of 18332 Old 06-07-2005, 06:58 AM
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If I were able to choose FiOS or Comast today, FiOS would get the nod. I have just never had a good experience with Comcast. I think the top two players will soon be Verizon and Directv. I kind of like having satellite, but I might have to give FiOS a spin when it is available.
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post #13 of 18332 Old 06-07-2005, 07:11 AM
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and every channel will be cropped...

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post #14 of 18332 Old 06-07-2005, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokiefan View Post

Most cable companies bring the fiber to a node that serves about 100 homes.

I think the current average node size is more in the 250-500 range ... yes there are certainly some plants that have hit 100 homes per node ... but that still seems pretty rare. There are also still some plants at 1000 homes per node.

But yes, most people seem to forget that the F in HFC stands for Fiber. Hybrid Fiber Coax ... fiber to the node ... then coax to the house.
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post #15 of 18332 Old 06-07-2005, 10:00 AM
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Do we have to pay more after 7PM for this?

Right now it's hard to say which one to get since FIOS is not availabel in themajority of the markets and they are not really delivering anything yet. Once it's rolled out and working then the comparasions can begin.

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post #16 of 18332 Old 06-07-2005, 10:16 AM
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Oh ... and according to most articles ... initial FiosTV roll-outs will pretty much have the exact same bandwidth and channel capacity as cable ... they are using an RF overlay approach.

Everything gets RF modulated (ie, NTSC / QAM like cable ... or you could even do QPSK / 8PSK like dbs) and sent down the fiber on a particular wavelength. The ONT (box that goes on the side of your house) converts that light back to RF ... and the signal is distributed through your house via coax.

http://www.forbes.com/technology/fee...5305453.html?p
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The deal, which includes both set-top boxes and unspecified central office equipment, also confirms that Verizon will use an RF overlay strategy for video as opposed to converting those signals to an IP format. A Verizon spokesman said today that the company isnt talking full details on its video service yet, but part of the decision comes from the carriers desire to take advantage of the economics of RF technology.

"The steps here are logical for us," he said. "This will allow us to put full cable TV type video on the fiber. Its simply a business decision. The video component of this doesnt even compete for space with data."

Most of the equipment is actually the latest iteration of gear from Next Level Communications, which Motorola acquired last year. Next Level was among the early leaders in telco video but was unable to get larger carriers to buy in to the system in part because much of it was proprietary.

Under the architecture Verizon is planning, RF video will be sent from a national head end located in Florida through a local CO and over the fiber network to optical network terminal from AFC Communications that sits on the side of the house. From there, it will connect to existing in-home coax through a traditional RF connector.

http://www.screenplaysmag.com/sp305m.html
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The local fare along with some of the nationally distributed content will be delivered in analog as well as digital format, with all content modulated to RF at 50 to 870 MHz onto 256 QAM carriers and sent out at the 1550 nanometer wavelength.

http://www.lightreading.com/document...e=lightreading
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Verizon's first rollout of video services is expected to occur sometime next year, and the company has said it will first offer an RF-based video service, equivalent to what is now offered by cable companies. The FTTP RFP the carrier issued -- along with SBC Communications Inc. (NYSE: SBC - message board) and BellSouth Corp. (NYSE: BLS - message board) -- in June 2003 even spelled out a video delivery system that would use, "to the extent possible, standard off-the-shelf CATV video equipment."

The RFP went on to say that the video distribution technique planned "is a CATV-like system."

Etc.

Goggle - Verizon Fios "RF OVerlay"

So your video is eventually going to be analog NTSC and 256 QAM in the 50-870MHz spectrum ... basically just like cable TV on a 860MHz plant. Cable does also have to carry voice and data in that same space ... while Verizon isn't ... those get offloaded to seperate wavelengths. So that's a little bit of bandwidth savings.

But basically ... initially ... same as cable. It'll be interesting to see how many (bandwidth-hogging ... but no STB needed) analog channels Verizon carries.

Now ... when Verizon starts delivering IPTV, VOD, etc ... that'll be where things get interesting ... and you'll get some insight on where they might be headed. Of course Verizon's FTTH gives you more options than cable's FTTN ... it'll be interesting to see if Verizon finds a way to (economically) take advantage of that.
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post #17 of 18332 Old 06-08-2005, 09:26 AM
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Potential trouble looms for SBC's Net-based TV

By Leslie Cauley USA TODAY

NEW YORK SBC Communications, which promised to launch its much-ballyhooed Internet-based TV service later this year, will almost certainly have to delay a commercial rollout until at least 2006, some analysts say.

A potential trouble spot is Microsoft's IPTV software platform, still in development. That software will form the heart of the operating system for SBC's entire video network, making it critical to the project
.
The problem? There's a good chance Microsoft won't be able to deliver on the aggressive timetables set by SBC. One other carrier, Swisscom of Switzerland, recently announced delays of its IPTV project because of technology problems. Swisscom is using the same vendors, Microsoft and Alcatel, that SBC is, notes analyst John Hodulik of UBS Investment Research.

"We believe SBC's commercial launch of IPTV could also be pushed back into 2006 from its original target of fourth-quarter 2005," Hodulik wrote in a recent note to clients.

Rick Thompson, an analyst at Heavy Reading, a market research firm, says it could take even longer. "It's possible they might roll out in '06, but what that means to me is a few hundred or a few thousand in select markets, but realistically I expect '07 to '08 to be the service phase."

Any delay would be a setback for SBC, which is pouring billions into its IPTV efforts. It comes as the company is preparing to acquire AT&T. With revenue from local and long-distance service falling, SBC is rushing into the TV business as a way to offset those declines.

A delay in deployment "will hurt them with Wall Street, hurt them with regulators and hurt their stock price," says analyst Adi Kishore of Yankee Group.

SBC insists that things are on track. Lea Ann Champion, who's overseeing SBC's IPTV deployment, notes Microsoft's IPTV software is "working in the lab." Still, she concedes, "We still have a long way to go to get into the marketplace."

Moshe Lichtman, who is heading Microsoft's IPTV effort, acknowledges that things aren't coming together as fast as the company expected. The "eco-system" industry parlance for the gear and software that must mesh flawlessly for IPTV to fly is a concern, he says. "We are a little bit behind where we all thought the eco-system would be," he says.

SBC last year selected Microsoft as its sole vendor for supplying it with IPTV software. At the time, SBC said it planned to begin field trials in mid-2005 and deploy commercial services in late 2005.

SBC in March changed the schedule: It now plans to begin field trials in the third quarter and do a limited commercial launch later this year, ramping up in 2006. It is still planning to make its IP service available to 18 million homes by mid-2008.

Kishore says of SBC's deployment schedule: "I would characterize it as a technology gamble to some extent."

Why? Among other things, Kishore points out, Microsoft is working with a range of vendors that have never worked together before and have limited video experience.
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post #18 of 18332 Old 06-08-2005, 10:03 AM
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My wife's parents just got Verizon fiber-to-the-door for internet access. They now get 13,000 down/2800 up(!!!) on BroadbandReports.com!
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post #19 of 18332 Old 06-08-2005, 12:19 PM
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didn't Verizon also agree to use the MS IPTV ? If so, FIOS may not be available as soon as we may want nor think
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post #20 of 18332 Old 06-08-2005, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredfa View Post

Potential trouble looms for SBC's Net-based TV

By Leslie Cauley USA TODAY

NEW YORK SBC Communications, which promised to launch its much-ballyhooed Internet-based TV service later this year, will almost certainly have to delay a commercial rollout until at least 2006, some analysts say.

A potential trouble spot is Microsoft's IPTV software platform, still in development. That software will form the heart of the operating system for SBC's entire video network, making it critical to the project

You would think a company like SBC would know not to depend on the King of Vaporware, Microsoft...I laughed my butt off reading this article...come on, they really thought Microsoft was going to able to commit to a timetable...?!?! Silly people...
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post #21 of 18332 Old 06-08-2005, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CycloneGT View Post

hehe, I don't think I'd want RG-11 in the house, that stuff is thick.

RG-11 is a thicker coax which is used outside of the house by the cable co. You would not ever rewire your house with RG-11 internally.

I'm just curious, does anyone know anyone who's actually wired inside the house with RG-11? Would it make that much of a difference?

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post #22 of 18332 Old 06-08-2005, 01:54 PM
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I'm not sure if verizon will be using mpeg4 compession initially but if they are they can blow cable away with the amout of vod & HD channels they can offer even without doing IPTV. If you do some quick math a 870mhz sytem can handle 145 analog channels so lets say they keep 45 channels in analog for legacy perposes. that leaves 100 channels. Let say they carry every RSNHD and general HD channel available being very librial make it 100 HD channels. That will take up the space of 50 analog channels that leaves 50 analog channels. Using mepg2 compession they can offer 10-12 digital channels in the space of one analog channel. 12 * 50 thats 750 digital channels. Now that more than enough for lots of VOD and carry just about every channel available. If they use mpeg4 they can double those numbers to 200HD if ever available and 1500 digital channels. So they have a major advantage on cable companies off the bat. Not to mention they won't have to put analog decoders in any of there boxes since everything will be digital. Now add IPTV into the mix down the line which will give them more bandwidth savings . So lets say every channel decided to do HD next year. They would have the bandwidth to add them if they wanted.
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post #23 of 18332 Old 06-08-2005, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Vidonic View Post

I'm just curious, does anyone know anyone who's actually wired inside the house with RG-11? Would it make that much of a difference?

I didn't have it run throughout my house, but I did run some entering my house from an OTA antenna that was several hundred feet away from my house. I really don't think it would be physically possbible to install it in walls. I don't think you could make the bends in < 4" that you would need to do inside a wall to land it on the back of a wall plate jack. As mentioned above it is thick and really stiff compared to any type of RG6 I have dealt with.

I also think there would be no noticible difference between RG6 & RG11 until you got several hundred feet away from the source. We will sometimes use RG11 in school buildings as a feeder line and branch off to the rooms from that.
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post #24 of 18332 Old 09-22-2005, 12:06 PM
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Check this one out. IF this is true this is going to be HUGE.

Fios to carry every HD channell available?

I wish I lived in a FIOS area.

http://www.******.com/db23p

Put url and 123 together for the domain name above.

David if I wanted to post it here I would have, but it is copyrighted work. Please stop the double standards.

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post #25 of 18332 Old 09-22-2005, 12:13 PM
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Hasn't Verizon has been saying all along that FIOS would offer every national HD package?
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post #26 of 18332 Old 09-22-2005, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredfa View Post

Hasn't Verizon has been saying all along that FIOS would offer every national HD package?

No as a matter of fact they haven't said they would carry every HD channel. They did however say that they would carry more HDTV channels than other providers. Still having more and having all IMO are two very different things. For example Voom had way more but still not all.
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post #27 of 18332 Old 09-22-2005, 12:18 PM
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Fred it is more then just that.

I have been getting a lot of good info fed to me today, this is really exciting stuff.

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post #28 of 18332 Old 09-22-2005, 12:19 PM
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If Cablevision seels VOOM to Veriuzon for use in FIOS, it could badly damage its own long-term cable income, according to this story from Forbes:

Cablevision May Blame It On FiOS

David Ng Forbes.com

Credit Suisse First Boston said Cablevision remains the operator the most at risk from the introduction of FiOS television by Verizon Communications.

"Cablevision is clearly the most at risk to FiOS in the near-term and likely the long-term among the public cable and satellite companies," CSFB said.

Verizon has said it plans to build to nearly 20 million homes, or 60% of its footprint, by 2010. Cablevision tops the list of operators at risk with an overlap of 19% of its homes passed, according to CSFB.

The research firm estimates that 4% of Comcast and 4% of Time Warner Cable subscribers are exposed to Verizon's announced FiOS builds. In the satellite sector, 3% of DirecTV and 2% of Echostar subscribers are exposed, according to the research firm.

"Our pricing comparison indicates that Verizon's video plans offer greater value at all segments of the market versus its cable competitors and at the high end of the market versus satellite competitors," CSFB said.

However, the research firm said Verizon's offer appears in line with the competitions' offerings when looking at a bundle package of unlimited voice, mid-tier video and broadband of at least 3MB downstream.

http://www.forbes.com/2005/09/22/ver...s03_print.html
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post #29 of 18332 Old 09-22-2005, 12:23 PM
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Isn't Rainbow a separate company yet?

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post #30 of 18332 Old 09-22-2005, 12:23 PM
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Interesting.

From all the people I have spoken with the VOOM 32 on FIOS is a go. Who knows Maybe Cablevision will sell out to Verizon.

Its a very interesting time we live in.

Dish Network is about to kick up HD a bunch too, and I am working on that stuff now.

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