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post #1471 of 9373 Old 04-23-2007, 01:36 PM
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Maybe an example will help (this is TWC-SD):

Unencrypted QAM tuners and DCR HDTV w/o CableCARD installed get Local-HD for NO EXTRA COST
after subscribing to Basic Cable.

After subscribing to (any) Digital Tier, there is no EXTRA COST for Local-HD, PADRES-HD, DISC-HD & TNT-HD.
HD-STB is same cost as SD-STB....and CableCARD cost is the same.
An additional DVR Service cost is the same for SD-DVR and HD-DVR.
So HD is NO EXTRA COST to digital subscribers.

After subscribing to each Premium Tier, there is NO EXTRA COST for HBO-HD, SHO-HD, CMAX-HD and/or STARZ-HD.
There is also a mandated Premium Tier "Buy-Through" access for subscribers who do not want any Digital Tier.

Of course, HD-VIP Pak (HDNET/HDMOV, inHD, UNIV-HD, ESPN-HD) is an additional cost.

I'm sure the sports nutz will want ESPN2-HD (for only a few hours of HD per week????),
but if TWC has to work within a capacity constraint, personally I prefer having the additional
("free") CMAX-HD and STARZ-HD channels.....

==========================================
And let us not forget that PPV and HD-PPV (20 avail. now) programs are helping to cover the cost of these upgrades.
The "bundling" deals that require VOD Servers, etc for these functions, may be holding up HD channel
deployments in some systems....

Which is all wrapped up in the Next Gen VOD Servers and associated SDV, DSG upgrade in
new OCAP/MCARD STBs for instant FF/RW and improved VOD search function in the new Digital Navigator.

1 July....1 July....1 July....1 July....1 July....
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post #1472 of 9373 Old 04-23-2007, 02:57 PM
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holl_ands:
I would personally have got the CinemaxHD or at least the StarzHD (or both) added like you have vs. the mostly "pillar-barred" ESPN2HD we just got for TWC-Wisconsin, but no.
I pay $10 a month alone for StarzSD, so missing out on the HD part just stinks.
They don't offer it as part of a DigiPic package like many TWC locations do, either here...but I like some of the movies offered on it.
Bev and Co. here (managers at TWC) don't like StarzHD enough to price it right or offer it in HD it would seem...sucks to be in Wisconsin (for TWC subs).
Another FYI:
Our HD DVR service is a dollar MORE each month for the service part in addition to the STB monthly charge vs. the SD DVRs unlike the San Diego pricing.
So with 3 HDTVs that means three bucks more a month in addition to the $5 more/month with cable rate increases (makes it $8 more before tax/frac. fees) that I am paying for the same crappy HD lineup the past two years (no HD channel addition totals).
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post #1473 of 9373 Old 04-23-2007, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gparris View Post

holl_ands:
I would personally have got the CinemaxHD or at least the StarzHD (or both) added like you have vs. the mostly "pillar-barred" ESPN2HD we just got for TWC-Wisconsin, but no.
I pay $10 a month alone for StarzSD, so missing out on the HD part just stinks.
They don't offer it as part of a DigiPic package like many TWC locations do, either here...but I like some of the movies offered on it.
Bev and Co. here (managers at TWC) don't like StarzHD enough to price it right or offer it in HD it would seem...sucks to be in Wisconsin (for TWC subs).
Another FYI:
Our HD DVR service is a dollar MORE each month for the service part in addition to the STB monthly charge vs. the SD DVRs unlike the San Diego pricing.
So with 3 HDTVs that means three bucks more a month in addition to the $5 more/month with cable rate increases (makes it $8 more before tax/frac. fees) that I am paying for the same crappy HD lineup the past two years (no HD channel addition totals).

with 3 HDTV's is it safe to assume you live in a house? and if you live in a house, i'm surprised you dont' switch to D*, i would have switched in the past, but i don't have a good LOS to a D* bird and live on the 1st floor of an apartment building
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post #1474 of 9373 Old 04-23-2007, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelvepbrs View Post

with 3 HDTV's is it safe to assume you live in a house? and if you live in a house, i'm surprised you dont' switch to D*, i would have switched in the past, but i don't have a good LOS to a D* bird and live on the 1st floor of an apartment building

FYI:
We have one in the HT room, one in the Mstr Bdrm and one in the Rec/Gym areas of the house.
I am a HT consultant in my family's business and use these setups additionally to move product/get business, too (it pays off, too).
As far as D* goes, our area does not offer all the HD locals like next-door (almost literally) Chicago does (5 HD locals).
Going OTA to get the remaining HD locals (we get only 3 HD locals from D*) requires a massive mast antenna that I will not put (butt ugly) up due to the hills and many trees/houses around the home to get those 5 HD locals I would get with D* if that was possible.
Anyway, D* does not offer PBSHD or INHD/MOJO which we would miss.
Now, give us the Chicago HD locals and add those 100 HD channels they keep advertising about, maybe then, but not now.
Even U-Verse is not available in my area yet, so that is not an option.
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post #1475 of 9373 Old 04-23-2007, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gparris View Post

FYI:
We have one in the HT room, one in the Mstr Bdrm and one in the Rec/Gym areas of the house.
I am a HT consultant in my family's business and use these setups additionally to move product/get business, too (it pays off, too).
As far as D* goes, our area does not offer all the HD locals like next-door (almost literally) Chicago does (5 HD locals).
Going OTA to get the remaining HD locals (we get only 3 HD locals from D*) requires a massive mast antenna that I will not put (butt ugly) up due to the hills and many trees/houses around the home to get those 5 HD locals I would get with D* if that was possible.
Anyway, D* does not offer PBSHD or INHD/MOJO which we would miss.
Now, give us the Chicago HD locals and add those 100 HD channels they keep advertising about, maybe then, but not now.
Even U-Verse is not available in my area yet, so that is not an option.

oh, sorry i made the assumption that OTA reception was good in your area, just goes to show that everyone situation is unique, i'm swimming in OTA signal but have a lot of multipath problems, but with a good (even indoor) antenna i could probably get all the locals/PBS in HD no problem...INHD/MOJO is in the crapper for me until they start carrying MLB games again
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post #1476 of 9373 Old 04-23-2007, 10:34 PM
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Yea it does vary from system to system on how the channel lineups are and pricing etc. The guy from La Quinta is right... Desert Cities which is the system i work on is covering almost all the Coachella valley which is from Cherry Valley/Baumont/banning to Coachella and Thermal!! A very big system, one of the biggest in TWC for size that is!! As for DC system, DC= Desert Cities, We have no more bandwith right now, we are a 750 MEGA system and actually have channels out to 759 or I think they are trying 765 Meg, So we are already over the system limits, I just heard the other day a rumor, not sure if its true, but DC is supposed to be getting a 1 gig update for our plant which would help so much for adding channels and getting things ready. Problem is, it is jsut a rumor for now and its gonna take a long time to get everything updated. We are looking for a quality drop-in module for all our amps so it can go to 1 gig, our taps are already rated for 1 gig. And the new Adephia system we jsut acquired in DHS is a 860 Meg system, and they are doing fine for bandwith, but theres a lot of problems up there due to adelphias' way of running things. For instance, high light levels on the fiber optics, too high fo signal, lots of ingress on the plant (ingress is noise). Problem is coporate, they take their sweet time making deals and then realease them whenever they feel like it. I am un-happy with TWC out here even as an employee because I know they can do better and etc but they dont yet, what they are doing is waiting until FiOS is almost ready to be launched until they decide to up their speeds for RR internet and make pricing cheaper. We already have a cheaper Triple play package that i think is great, but most people dont know about it, just need to call in and ask if theres a new package to get for channels and it should be cheaper!! but yea, i think i went off subject there but just a lil insight on whats going on in my sytem!!

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post #1477 of 9373 Old 04-23-2007, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cableguy101 View Post

...We already have a cheaper Triple play package that i think is great, but most people dont know about it, just need to call in and ask if theres a new package to get for channels and it should be cheaper!!

tried that, they told me to go pound sand
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post #1478 of 9373 Old 04-23-2007, 11:14 PM
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OK... It's Official.

http://nyrangers.com/tickets/schedule.asp
Game 1 7PM Wednesday at Buffalo VersusHD Exclusive
Game 2 7PM Friday at Buffalo MSG/VersusHD
Game 3 2PM Sunday at NYR NBCHD
Game 4 7PM Tuesday at NYR VersusHD Exclusive
*Game 5 7PM Friday at Buffalo MSG/VersusHD
*Game 6 2PM Sunday at NYR NBCHD
*Game 7 7PM Tuesday at Buffalo MSG/VersusHD

So basically.... the worst possible outcome....
2 games in HD out of a possible 7 for us with TWC in NY...


Thanks to everyone who makes these decisions....
TWC... MSG... Versus... NBC... the NHL....
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post #1479 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelvepbrs View Post

comparing one local monopoly to another is pretty pointless, the comparison to D*, E*, FiosTV is more apt, also your experience with TW's customer service may be only limited to Fairport, NY (bit assumption here), in the past five years i've had cable service through Cox, Comcast, Charter AND TW in different parts of Florida, Maryland, and California, and they all suck, just because one pile of sh*t smells a little better than another doesn't mean anything, it's still a pile of sh*t!!!

Agreed... Everyone knows that every company is interested in their bottom line but monopolies like TWC and all the other cable companies are ONLY interested in the bottom line. And believe me there's a big difference between the two.
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post #1480 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 07:46 AM
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Seems as though TWC needs some local competition to get it to add more HD channels and maybe watch its pricing (in theory at least).
Although AT&T's U-Verse is starting to lose its better customers-HD subscribers- to "U-Verse" in SE Wisconsin, that doesn't mean, at least so far, we will get more than ESPN2HD (recently) for HD channel additions.
This channel just replaced INHD2 from January's loss, that's all, nothing more.
San Antonio's TWC system with AT&T corporate in its backyard, so to speak, is an example of what happens when competiton does work in the consumer's favour (many more HD channels available).
TWC-Milwaukee just doesn't "get it" yet, I guess (or needs a bigger drop in HD subscribers).
Honestly, twelvepbrs, if there were any good alternatives to TWC HD service, I would have had switched already, but not yet (and TWC likes it that way).
When AT&T U-Verse does call me (or Verizon FIOS) I'll be ready, however.
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post #1481 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by IndifferentBozo View Post

I'd like the same information for Center Ice in HD and VS HD for the Austin TWC. HD hockey spoils you for sd versions, especially when they keep saying during the SD broadcast that the game is available in HD.

Nice to see they will be adding ESPN2 HD and ESPN news HD in 2008 though...buh (really? ESPN news?)

Who do I talk to in order to get FIOS in Austin..)

Nobody cause ATT won't let verizon in. Believe me I'm with you on that. TWC said they should be adding ESPN2 within the month in Austin but nothing else coming due to 'technical' constraints...

See how your Blu-Ray movies stack up. Visit the Blu-Ray Tier Thread Today.
Viewing Movies at 1080p/24 on a Pioneer PRO-FHD1 50" Plasma TV and a Blu-Ray Player. Viewing Distance:7-10ft.
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post #1482 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 10:23 AM
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Actually, I've been thinking that since I live in an area served by Verizon (formerly GTE), AT&T U-Verse may not ever be available, the opposite of your location, AustinSTI.

FIOS TV sounds better from what users have been reporting even in this forum and they just added 3 more HD channels, too.

Verizon keeps begging me to switch back from TWC's system for all three services, but I tell them that won't ever happen unless I can get FIOS TV, too.
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post #1483 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 10:36 AM
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Watch out for FiOS BS. They is no difference in picture quality and sound than TWC digital lineup. Digital is digital!! At least from what I have seen with FiOS launched over in Baumont. Also the prices that FiOS is giving customers are just goint to be teaser prices to lure you in, you watch. Prices may be nice and cheap now but once they get more subscribers and figure out how to actually run a TV company, they are gonna realize that they are losing money and are going to need to increase prices to make up for the money they invested in putting Fiber everywhere and to make up what they have lost with the teaser prices. Someone is going to have to pay for the Fiber that was put in, and who you think is gonna get the bill? The customer!! Not only that, how long does it take for Verizon or any Telephone compnay to respond to a trouible call you put in? 2 weeks? maybe longer, and how much do they charge you? Look at TWC, Trouble calls for the most part out here I know are gotten to within a couple days, not weeks like the telco companies! and not only that we dont charge for the Trouble call unless under certain circumstances! Lets see the telco companies beat that service. They are just beginning in TV service, TWC has been doing it for decades!!

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post #1484 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

But your logic of "Already paying for" does escape me.

Think about this... we pay certain rate for HBO that compromises multiple channels. We don't get all the channels that are part of the rate. The rate is NOT adjusted because we are NOT getting all the content that the rate pays for. So we PAY for the HD channel, but don't get it (obviously, in my market at this point it's not longer true, but we didn't get Starz & Cinemax HD until last fall, so there was almost 2 years that we paid for them but didn't get their HD channel).

How about gas? Let's say you pay 3 bucks/gallon. Within 50 miles of you, you only get 3/4 gallon for the same gallon rate. 50 miles away, for the same 3 bucks, you get a full gallon.

Time Warner NYC (Man North Head End) - 8742HD DVR ODN 5.2.0_9

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post #1485 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 11:30 AM
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Thanks for the input, cableguy101, but TWC has dozens of god-awful analogue SD channels that are NOT digital that should be and are...on FIOS.
True, I have seen FIOS in the Tampa area when I worked there and found the pictures (the HD ones) equivalent to TWC, but more HD channels were offered, including ALL the digital local ones...not so, with many TWC locations, even with that SBG agreement signed months ago (like my location).
IF cost is a factor, I would gladly pay a bit more for more HD channels, perhaps like what U-Verse does with its $10 "technology fee" or D* or E* ask for to get HD channels, if the quanity of HD channels significantly increases.
As for service, I did not receive any negative reviews from locals about FIOS there in terms of time downs, slow delivery of repairs (after bad storms) and so on.
It would vary, you would think, like everything-it depends on the FIOS (or TWC) location...I am sure your area gets good service (from you or your teams).
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post #1486 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 11:41 AM
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cableguy, I've taken some issue with some things you posted, but I think you're 100% on the money regarding FIOS. Plus you can add in issues in urban areas... nobody knows for sure and nobody is saying anything, but I seriously doubt it will be fiber into one's apartment. I suspect it's fiber into the building and cooper to each unit. TWC is almost the same, they are fiber to a manhole 50 feet away from my building.

STILL, from a HD perspective, TWC here sucks big time. We only get 13 regular HD channels, there are 8 others available at considerable extra cost (well, 5% of the population gets an additional 3 HD channels even though all of us pay the same rate). And I could guarentee you that when FIOS comes before our license/franchise agency, TWC will fight them getting a agreement tooth and nail.

Time Warner NYC (Man North Head End) - 8742HD DVR ODN 5.2.0_9

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post #1487 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cableguy101 View Post

Watch out for FiOS BS. They is no difference in picture quality and sound than TWC digital lineup. Digital is digital!!

I pretty much agree with the rest of what you say in this last post - but I must take issue with your statement that "Digital is digital!!" A raw, uncompressed HD video bitstream uses something around 1Gbps. OTA Broadcast HD is not much more than 18Mbps. To cram the 1Gbps data stream into 18Mbps (or less) compression is used, and the amount of compression used is variable. For example: that 1Gbps bit stream can be reduced to 18Mbps, 12Mbps, even 9Mbps. It all depends on how much compression is used. Yet IT IS ALL DIGITAL!

In an earlier post, you referred to 3HD channels per QAM (you later acknowledged that it was a typo). But there are cable systems that do cram 3HD channels per QAM (meaning each channel is 12Mbps). DirecTV uses, "HDLite" (a combination resolution limiting and added compression) of to cram more channels into a given space. It's PQ is certainly NOT as good as the PQ of a full 18Mbps digital channel (from OTA, cable or FiOS).

Now, people ASSUME that, because FiOS has more bandwidth, that it's PQ is better than cable. While, in theory this is true, it is not necessary true in practice. From what I have seen, FiOS has been using modified cable equipment (Motorola DVRs for example) that have the same bit rate limitations as their cable equivalents. This suggests that FiOS PQ is roughly the same as cable. And you suggest that in your post. However, I've heard places where FiOS was worse and I also know that some cable systems put 3 HD channels in per QAM.

I guess the bottom line here is that:
1) Being digital is no guarantee of quality (more on this in the next post I make)
2) There is an awful lot of regionalism in this - in some cities cable HD may be better than FiOS HD, and in other cities FiOS HD may be better than cable HD.

Dave Hancock
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post #1488 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gparris View Post

Thanks for the input, cableguy101, but TWC has dozens of god-awful analogue SD channels that are NOT digital that should be and are...on FIOS.

gparris, by this do you mean that digital SD channels are superior to analog SD channels in terms of Picture Quality? I take exception to such a generalization (though in the HD world, who cares about SD PQ?). Anytime one takes an analog signal (of any type), digitizes it and then compresses it (to get it to fit in a smaller space) the PQ is going to suffer. Granted, the digital signal is more immune to noise and interference, but it is also lower in resolution, tone scale accuracy, and absence of compression artifacts.

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post #1489 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

Think about this... we pay certain rate for HBO that compromises multiple channels. We don't get all the channels that are part of the rate. The rate is NOT adjusted because we are NOT getting all the content that the rate pays for. So we PAY for the HD channel, but don't get it (obviously, in my market at this point it's not longer true, but we didn't get Starz & Cinemax HD until last fall, so there was almost 2 years that we paid for them but didn't get their HD channel).

Well: do YOU know what cable is paying for those channels? Unless you know what TW has to pay for each of the channels in a "package" and whether or not TW has to pay more to carry the HD equivalent of a channel - you really don't know if you are paying for something you do not get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

How about gas? Let's say you pay 3 bucks/gallon. Within 50 miles of you, you only get 3/4 gallon for the same gallon rate. 50 miles away, for the same 3 bucks, you get a full gallon.

But isn't that the case? In NYC vs NJ: 1) the taxes are higher (per gallon); and 2) the costs of the property (land) for the gas station are higher, so the cost per gallon of gas is higher in NYC than in NJ. Does that mean that the gas station operator in NYC is making more money per gallon than the operator in NJ? I doubt it. So the point is????

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post #1490 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 12:30 PM
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davehancock: I meant our analogue channels, not the digital channels that are SD.
Cable analogues are bandwidth-eating, missing pixels, bad interference monsters - better watched on much smaller TV screens where you may not notice this as much.
I have compared some of my favourite analogue channels from TWC on the FIOS system, though not side by side, mind you, but the same channels were much more watchable on FIOS than on TWC.
The SD channels on the FIOS system that I watched on were considerably clearer and artifact-free, these didn't me beg for the the HD version as much as it would had I been stuck with the TWC analogue version, it just would have been appreciated.
(Example: Battlestar Galactica on Universal HD vs. Sci-Fi channel's version in SD vs. analogue TWC).
When TWC decides to get rid of all the analogue channels, or copy them to digital for those with digital cable boxes, the sooner the better, IMO.
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post #1491 of 9373 Old 04-24-2007, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gparris View Post

davehancock: I meant our analogue channels, not the digital channels that are SD.
Cable analogues are bandwidth-eating, missing pixels, bad interference monsters - better watched on much smaller TV screens where you may not notice this as much.

That's what I thought you meant - and I was explaining that, for SD, analog SD will be superior to digital SD - providing clean signals of each are delivered.

You refer to "missing pixels" - that would be a characteristic ONLY of a digital signal (analog has only lines - no pixels).

In many (if not most, by now) cable systems the SD channels are "simulcast", sent both in analog and digital form. Approximately 12 SD digital channels go in one QAM channel (the space of an analog SD channel). On these systems, when you tune to a simulcast channel on a cable STB, the digital version will be selected. However if you connect the cable direct to the TV (using the NTSC tuner) you will get the analog version of the same channel. Frankly, the larger the screen, and the higher the quality of the display, the more you will notice the inferiority of the digital version. Again, assuming a clean analog signal - which is not always the case.

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post #1492 of 9373 Old 04-25-2007, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Frankly, the larger the screen, and the higher the quality of the display, the more you will notice the inferiority of the digital version. Again, assuming a clean analog signal - which is not always the case.

Not the case here with TWC's NYC digital SD channels. Some time back I often made A-B comparisons between analog and digital versions of the same SD channel; one remote-control button made the instant switch. That's only 8' from a 64" 9"-gun RPTV. Digitals were better.

Also, TWC's delivery of 8--10 SD channels per 256-QAM, 6-MHz-wide cable slot (with rate shaping and statistical multiplexing) likely is inferior to their satellite-downlinked SD program sources from C-band etc. But then if TWC or other MSOs wanted to devote the bandwidth they could assign higher bit rates to SD sources and match the C-band picture quality. There are frequent reports Verizon's FIOS (fiber) SD has better PQ than standard sources; an interesting comparison would be between FIOS SD (and HD) and the satellite downlinks. -- John
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post #1493 of 9373 Old 04-25-2007, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

DirecTV uses, "HDLite" (a combination resolution limiting and added compression) of to cram more channels into a given space. It's PQ is certainly as good as the PQ of a full 18Mbps digital channel (from OTA, cable or FiOS).

"HDLite" as good as a 18mb/s channel?

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post #1494 of 9373 Old 04-25-2007, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by davehancock View Post

Well: do YOU know what cable is paying for those channels? Unless you know what TW has to pay for each of the channels in a "package" and whether or not TW has to pay more to carry the HD equivalent of a channel - you really don't know if you are paying for something you do not get.

My contention is based on what WE pay... we do NOT pay an extra premium for a premium's HD channel (and I have never heard anyone on any system that pays additional for a premium's HD channel). If that premium did charge extra for their HD channel to my MSO, in no way would I ever believe we would not be passed on this extra cost. You have any evidence that TWC pays MORE to HBO or whomever for delivering it's HD channel? You really think that last November when we got Starz HD and Cinemax HD that TWC started paying more money and decided to absorb those costs out of the goodness of their hearts?

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post #1495 of 9373 Old 04-25-2007, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by gparris View Post

IF cost is a factor, I would gladly pay a bit more for more HD channels, perhaps like what U-Verse does with its $10 "technology fee" or D* or E* ask for to get HD channels, if the quanity of HD channels significantly increases.

If Verizon turned up at my door tomorrow and said we can give you the full Verizon FiOS HD channel lineup you want but it will cost twice what you are paying now. I wouldn't even blink before saying yes. Especially if they throw in their standard broadband speed as well.

I don't care if it's more expensive. When TWC Raleigh starts to actually show some progress outside of Navigator (and I use "progress" loosely there) and RefrigeratorsOnDemand they'll get my attention. But right now they've been spinning their wheels too long and using my money to do it.


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post #1496 of 9373 Old 04-25-2007, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by cableguy101 View Post

Watch out for FiOS BS. They is no difference in picture quality and sound than TWC digital lineup. Digital is digital!! At least from what I have seen with FiOS launched over in Baumont. Also the prices that FiOS is giving customers are just goint to be teaser prices to lure you in, you watch. Prices may be nice and cheap now but once they get more subscribers and figure out how to actually run a TV company, they are gonna realize that they are losing money and are going to need to increase prices to make up for the money they invested in putting Fiber everywhere and to make up what they have lost with the teaser prices. Someone is going to have to pay for the Fiber that was put in, and who you think is gonna get the bill? The customer!! Not only that, how long does it take for Verizon or any Telephone compnay to respond to a trouible call you put in? 2 weeks? maybe longer, and how much do they charge you? Look at TWC, Trouble calls for the most part out here I know are gotten to within a couple days, not weeks like the telco companies! and not only that we dont charge for the Trouble call unless under certain circumstances! Lets see the telco companies beat that service. They are just beginning in TV service, TWC has been doing it for decades!!

It's hard to draw generalities, cuz each SD channel seems to have a different "PQ".

The REALLY BAD SD channels probably originate and are transferred to C-Band
SAT uplink terminals via antique analog equipment....
and then put on the worst of the worst analog C-Band transponders.
[Like perhaps ComedyCentral, E!, LMN, MTV, Spike, TRVL, VH1, WE....]

Additional degradation can then occur in the analog portion of the cable plant....
plus digitization degradation, since HFC cable systems distribute to local node
in digital form, where QAM and Analog Edge Modulators at your local node
convert them to QAM-256 and reconstituted analog simulcast channels:
http://www.rgbnetworks.com/products/...48_diagram.jpg

Since it's GIGO, can you really see the extra degradation in the reconstituted
signal coming out of the Analog Edge Modulator (which must undergo additional
degradation throughout your local neighborhood cable network)...compared to the
reconstituted signal coming directly out of your STB??? Depends on the neighborhood....

==============================
The BEST SD channels probably originate as MPEG2 and STAY DIGITAL until
converted back to Analog by either the Edge Modulator or (preferably) your STB.

Plus degradation due to bitrate starvation whenever a STATMUX is employed...

This is a golden opportunity to take a good thing (all digital transfer)
and really muck it up by packing too many SD channels on the C-Band uplink
and then recompressing a DIFFERENT assortment of too many SD channels
into each QAM256 cable channel.....

And then there are probably channels that are a mixture of Analog and MPEG2.....

=============================
Most of the digital source material feeding today's systems is MPEG2.
Obviously, there will be degradation due to transcoding from MPEG2 to MPEG4,
when conveyed via Uverse and FiOS...and HD for D*, E*.

The transcoding degradation will be higher for already bit-starved LIL-HD channels.
And the degradation should be much less if the source is a pre-encoded, full datarate,
MPEG2 file sitting on the programming service's server....

Redigitizing movies, et.al. is going to take some time, but "soon" Turner
Networks will originate linear programing in both MPEG2 and MPEG4:
http://newsroom.cisco.com/dlls/2006/prod_110906.html

Hopefully, other programing sources will follow the same game plan,
eliminating the MPEG2/MPEG4 transcoding operation:
http://www.telecommagazine.com/Ameri...?HH_ID=AR_2105
http://www.ses-americom.com/americom...m/04_16_07.php

So starting next year, some MPEG4 channels should begin to benefit from
the (alleged) video coding improvements, such as fewer macroblocking events
and even keeping two sets of parameters to follow flashing strobe lights.
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post #1497 of 9373 Old 04-25-2007, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverside_Guy View Post

"HDLite" as good as a 18mb/s channel?

NO WAY - too much typing and I left out the NOT (I've corrected it).

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post #1498 of 9373 Old 04-25-2007, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cableguy101 View Post

Watch out for FiOS BS. They is no difference in picture quality and sound than TWC digital lineup. Digital is digital!! At least from what I have seen with FiOS launched over in Baumont. Also the prices that FiOS is giving customers are just goint to be teaser prices to lure you in, you watch. Prices may be nice and cheap now but once they get more subscribers and figure out how to actually run a TV company, they are gonna realize that they are losing money and are going to need to increase prices to make up for the money they invested in putting Fiber everywhere and to make up what they have lost with the teaser prices. Someone is going to have to pay for the Fiber that was put in, and who you think is gonna get the bill? The customer!! Not only that, how long does it take for Verizon or any Telephone compnay to respond to a trouible call you put in? 2 weeks? maybe longer, and how much do they charge you? Look at TWC, Trouble calls for the most part out here I know are gotten to within a couple days, not weeks like the telco companies! and not only that we dont charge for the Trouble call unless under certain circumstances! Lets see the telco companies beat that service. They are just beginning in TV service, TWC has been doing it for decades!!

i guess they make you drink the koolaid before you start working at TWC
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post #1499 of 9373 Old 04-26-2007, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by holl_ands View Post

It's hard to draw generalities, cuz each SD channel seems to have a different "PQ".

Oh BOY is that ever the case!

I think we all tend to run around and assign blame without really making an effort to ascertain whether whom you're blaming is... to blame. PQ on SD runs the gamut from fabulous to not so hot. I remember the days before TWC started doing the broadcast channels digitally, they were close to unwatchable on my $1800 brand new XBR Trinitron. I remember fabulous PQ on HBO/SHO and god awful on 2,4,5,7,9,11,13.

Likewise, I am more and more believing a LOT more goes into the HD rendering of a feature than meets the eye. I've seen HD versions that looked worse than good SD (Speilberg's War of the Worlds is a good example, I've seen SD broadcast, DVD, HD broadcast and they all look equally god awful) and I've seen absolutely fabulous transfers (West Side Story, Breakfast at Tiffanys to mention 2 very, very old films with stunning HD transfers).

2 good ways to evaluate SD on HD is from a DVD or from a premium channel (HBO/SHO etc.). Both will show what that set can do with a good quality SD signal.

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post #1500 of 9373 Old 04-26-2007, 10:17 AM
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Out here in Desert Cities, there were some channels I actually thought looked better on analog than the Digital Simulcast version like Fox News for example! Since I am a employee, i was able to BETA test the simulcast channels before they switched the mapping on the boxes to go the digital channel instead of analog, so for example, Fox news out here is on channel 55, I could go to channel 1355 and see the digital version. When I compared the 2, I really thought the analog was better. The digital seemed to have too much compression, I could see the picutre adjust a lot from action to talking scenes, its bareable, but I liked the analog better in my opinion!!

Also, most you people didnt understand me in my last post about FiOS. Forget about the offereings and etc, do you realize you are going to pay more for FiOS than what you think, they are teaser rates to lure you in, then after awhile your gonna be paying more. I dont know about the one person who said they would pay double of what TWC charged if it menat more HD channels, but how many more channels?? Out here in Desert Cities, all the local Networks are in HD and then DISCOVERY and TNT and etc, and it does also make a difference between different divisions, some are better than others and some are worse. For my area, its pretty darn good!!

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