The Magic 8 Ball speaks out on FOX HDTV - More Bits Are HERE! - Page 10 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
post #271 of 292 Old 09-07-2006, 04:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
foxeng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where ever I am is where I am.
Posts: 14,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 40
I have no knowledge of this, but it wouldn't surprise me if the Canadian networks have fiber feeds from all US networks. Solves that problem.

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
foxeng is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #272 of 292 Old 09-07-2006, 04:24 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
foxeng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where ever I am is where I am.
Posts: 14,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD
720 <-> 1080i is a cross-converter. My slip there.

Because AI was a live HD show and there was no sat backhaul, the only place where CTV could get the HD is from the Fox HD network. The SD was a clean feed from Fox so there was no Fox bug on that.
The FOX bug on the SD feed is sent from LA not the affiliates like with the splicer, so CTV didn't get it from the same SD source the US FOX affiliates do. I was in Toronto in May of 2005 and watched AI on CTV less FOX bug but with CTV bug. Strange to see Seacrest talking about FOX programs and using the word FOX and then go to a commercial and see spots for Canadian Tire and Tim Horton's and websites that end in .ca! ;)

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
foxeng is offline  
post #273 of 292 Old 09-07-2006, 05:03 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
foxeng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where ever I am is where I am.
Posts: 14,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Just so everyone is on the same page, the splicer is just a very fancy 3 input ASI switcher/mux. Input one is the full stream from the IRD. The splicer is then commanded via network which stream to pass on from that input. Input 2 is the local 720p HD encoder input. This could be actual 720p or upconverted 480i to 720p. In any case, this input MUST have 720p 24/7. The third input is available for a second stream for multicasting. Input 1 and 2 are "switched" or actually spliced between each other. The reason it is a "splice" and not a "switch" is that the stations metadata inserted at input 2 such as PSIP data, PID data, etc is passed untouched through the splicer while (for lack of a better laymans term) the local video/audio data is cut out of the input 2 stream and the network video/audio data of input 1 is then inserted to the output with the stations PID data when network is to be on air. All of this is then muxed with any input from input 3 (optional second stream) and then the whole signal is groomed and then sent to the transmitter as the last device in the chain. There is a lot going on in this 1 7/8 inch high box but it takes almost 2/3 of rack of support equipment to make it work.

The only control the station has over all of this is Emergency Bypass, Logo 1/2 to air (white FOX bug/local bug but this function is disabled locally during network), and network to air and local to air. Everything else is controlled by network. Network also has a dialup phone connection that is required to the splicer for control and status interrogation. Network knows what the condition of the splicer is at all times and can remotely command it if needed for troubleshooting, etc. Software updates can be sent via phone line or via sat when needed and there has been several software updates in the last 2 years since the splicers went on line. Latest being in the spring.

Yes it does make life for the stations easier in many ways and does provide a more uniform product. And yes it also limits what can be done outside of network programming such as HD promos and in network station emergency crawls, etc. Everything in life is a compromise.

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
foxeng is offline  
post #274 of 292 Old 09-07-2006, 05:09 AM
Member
 
TXP3064W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: North Texas
Posts: 164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
All I know is that the FOX HD feed is the worst one on my HD channel line-up.............PQ sucks big time..........And their sports announcers, minus joe buck, all sucketh!!! Jeanne looks like an ape.........How did she get that gig anyway?
TXP3064W is offline  
post #275 of 292 Old 09-07-2006, 05:51 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
foxeng's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Where ever I am is where I am.
Posts: 14,023
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 40
My guess is that for non live programming, the Canadian networks are not even taking a network feed from the US networks but are locally running copies of the programs sent to them directly from the producers (same as the US networks) and for the occassional live show, such as AI or the Emmys or something like that, they take it via fiber or some obscure sat backhaul directly from the US network. For sports, I suspect there is a dedicated fiber for that from the US sports nets to the Canadian sports nets.

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers.
foxeng is offline  
post #276 of 292 Old 09-07-2006, 07:32 AM
Senior Member
 
ctmooregottapee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: SF
Posts: 277
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 10
could you verify foxeng if it is possible or allowed for locals to use the Fox network feed as input into their own local encoder. yes i understand that typically no local would want to do this, but they could, and might do so for some plant issues or to further compress the fox signal to cram in another sub-channel or what not.

cable co and even ruperts own sat co directv reencodes the local fox feeds so obviously they can't control it after the local, but i don't know if their local contracts stipulate you must use the box as specified.

while i stilll like this method best as the locals are abysmal when it comes to reliability and tech saviness, very few get programming direct from the local via OTA so it is a mute point if everyone downstream molests the signal.


also, how come the locals/fox don't use the station id feature yet?
and has there been any local complaints about the times when Fox doesn't kick on their local station bug like during the superbowl or the recent star wars epII movie? you'd figure locals would be raving their bug isn't displayed during the big events
ctmooregottapee is offline  
post #277 of 292 Old 09-07-2006, 07:41 AM
AVS Special Member
 
spwace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Colfax, CA
Posts: 3,763
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz
The one problem with the Fox splicer system is that it seems to be make it more difficult for stations to do local HD such as sports or news.
Nonsense, there is no reason why a FOX affiliate can't send local HD. When a station sends local upconverts, they are upconverted to 720hp first and then sent as 720p HD through the splicer.
spwace is offline  
post #278 of 292 Old 09-07-2006, 10:39 AM
AVS Special Member
 
videojanitor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz
Having the entire network HD side handed to them on a silver platter seems to have made a lot of Fox affiliates lazy by the looks of it. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Fox affiliates can't receive a non-Fox-provided HD feed and get it to air.
First you said it was "difficult" for a FOX affiliate to air local HD, and now you say they might just be "lazy." Those are two different things. It wouldn't be difficult at all -- no more difficult than for any other station. As for "lazy," well, exactly how much non-network HD content is available? Just a hair above zero.
videojanitor is offline  
post #279 of 292 Old 09-08-2006, 07:50 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
mrvideo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 6,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz
Based on information I received from the HD engineer at the CBS affiliate here, CBS provides IRDs to their affiliates, but the rest of it is up to the station.
OK. Then they got cheap for The CW.

Quote:
The one problem with the Fox splicer system is that it seems to be make it more difficult for stations to do local HD such as sports or news.
OK, explain that, because it doesn't make any sense.

"What do you say Beckett. Wanna have a baby?" - Castle to Det. Beckett
"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
Mr. Video
My Geek Images

mrvideo is offline  
post #280 of 292 Old 09-08-2006, 07:58 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
mrvideo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 6,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyoteaz
Having the entire network HD side handed to them on a silver platter seems to have made a lot of Fox affiliates lazy by the looks of it. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Fox affiliates can't receive a non-Fox-provided HD feed and get it to air. Why spend the money to upgrade the local equipment to handle HD when none of it is needed for the majority of programming anyway?
That is so true, especially regarding Sinclair owned stations. That company is extremely cheap. My local Fox affiliate is Sinclair owned and the station's plant is still analog. They can't record anyone's HD feed.

Sinclair is going to have to spend money on the station of the these years. Once analog is shut down, everything will be digital.

"What do you say Beckett. Wanna have a baby?" - Castle to Det. Beckett
"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
Mr. Video
My Geek Images

mrvideo is offline  
post #281 of 292 Old 09-08-2006, 08:13 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
mrvideo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 6,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng
My guess is that for non live programming, the Canadian networks are not even taking a network feed from the US networks but are locally running copies of the programs sent to them directly from the producers (same as the US networks).
Correct. Global isn't buying HD from the states yet. But CTV is. Warner Bros. product is being sent to them via QPSK DVB-S, encrypted. Haven't heard of any CBS/Paramount HD sat feeds yet. BuenaVista isn't even set up, last I heard, to send HD via the bird. So they may be shipping tapes. Warner Bros. has the contract to ship out NBCU material. House is Global, so that is only SD.

Expect all CBS/Paramount HD material to be sent out via Pathfire in the near future. Pathfire is close to getting HD working. In the meantime, Jeopardy/Wheel is being sent via QPSK DVB-S. When Pathfire is ready, that will cease.

"What do you say Beckett. Wanna have a baby?" - Castle to Det. Beckett
"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
Mr. Video
My Geek Images

mrvideo is offline  
post #282 of 292 Old 09-08-2006, 08:19 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
mrvideo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 6,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctmooregottapee
also, how come the locals/fox don't use the station id feature yet?
and has there been any local complaints about the times when Fox doesn't kick on their local station bug like during the superbowl or the recent star wars epII movie? you'd figure locals would be raving their bug isn't displayed during the big events
My guess is that it is in the contract. What I mean is that NFL might have in their contract that bugs are not allowed. Lucas might hate them as well and there may be language that nixes their use.

"What do you say Beckett. Wanna have a baby?" - Castle to Det. Beckett
"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
Mr. Video
My Geek Images

mrvideo is offline  
post #283 of 292 Old 09-08-2006, 08:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
videojanitor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo
My guess is that it is in the contract. What I mean is that NFL might have in their contract that bugs are not allowed. Lucas might hate them as well and there may be language that nixes their use.
The "legal ID" bug can always be activated by the station, no matter what. We have used it over NFL games ever since it was made available. Not all stations have taken advantage of it, and I would characterize that as lazy, as it merely involves creating a graphic and sending it to the network to be loaded into the splicer.

The "station bug" cannot be controlled locally, except during non-network programming. Thus, if Lucas says "no bugs" for his movies, the network can lock it out. However, that doesn't affect the legal ID ... that can still be used.
videojanitor is offline  
post #284 of 292 Old 09-08-2006, 11:35 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
mrvideo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 6,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by videojanitor
The "legal ID" bug can always be activated by the station, no matter what. We have used it over NFL games ever since it was made available. Not all stations have taken advantage of it, and I would characterize that as lazy, as it merely involves creating a graphic and sending it to the network to be loaded into the splicer.
I'm not sure why you quoted me. Our local Fox affiliate does indeed have one. I've not seen them use it. I know it exists because of a Fox net problem that caused it to appear through an episode of AI and whatever else was on that night. It would come and go, seemingly under network control (commercial breaks, etc.). I don't watch AI, but just stumbled across it tuning channels and stayed to see what it would do. The problem on lasted that night.

"What do you say Beckett. Wanna have a baby?" - Castle to Det. Beckett
"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
Mr. Video
My Geek Images

mrvideo is offline  
post #285 of 292 Old 09-09-2006, 12:10 AM
 
HDTVFanAtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by spwace
The splicer would be needed to make the switch between the recorded stream and the local encoder unless the stream was decoded and re-encoded.
The splicer control data was recorded on an unused audio channel. They recorded the East Coast feed that gave them more control. However, there were too many problems and mistakes (just like the other networks have found out with their local affiliates) and that was scrapped.
HDTVFanAtic is offline  
post #286 of 292 Old 09-09-2006, 12:33 AM
AVS Special Member
 
videojanitor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo
I'm not sure why you quoted me.
Because you were guessing that the stations were not using the legal ID because of something in the NFL contract. I know you weren't stating that as fact, but I had to use something as a springboard for my comments. :)
videojanitor is offline  
post #287 of 292 Old 09-09-2006, 08:51 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
mrvideo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 6,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by videojanitor
Because you were guessing that the stations were not using the legal ID because of something in the NFL contract. I know you weren't stating that as fact, but I had to use something as a springboard for my comments. :)
Not the legal ID, the bug. Reread the initial post. The legal ID is mentioned, but the station bug was specifically mentioned in the context of not being used during certain programs.

"What do you say Beckett. Wanna have a baby?" - Castle to Det. Beckett
"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
Mr. Video
My Geek Images

mrvideo is offline  
post #288 of 292 Old 09-09-2006, 10:49 AM
AVS Special Member
 
videojanitor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Oh, sorry. I read it too fast. My comments were directly only to the question that he asked first, which was: "how come the locals/fox don't use the station id feature yet?"
videojanitor is offline  
post #289 of 292 Old 09-12-2006, 11:38 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
mrvideo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 6,255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked: 93
The average bitrate for Tuesday's House was only 11.38 Mbps. A drop of 4 Mbps from last week.

I wonder what happened. I suspect that show content didn't tax the encoder this week.

"What do you say Beckett. Wanna have a baby?" - Castle to Det. Beckett
"How Long have I been gone?" Alexis after arriving home and seeing Castle and Beckett w/ the baby - Castle - 11/25/13
Mr. Video
My Geek Images

mrvideo is offline  
post #290 of 292 Old 09-13-2006, 12:55 AM
 
HDTVFanAtic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 3rd Rock from the Sun
Posts: 8,143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Fox bitrates have been jumping all over the place for the last several weeks - same shows - on week to week basis.

Jim DeFilippis admits they installed some new software but swears it should not be making this much difference as everyone is seeing - yet he is trying to dismiss it and stating that the actual Fox stream is VBR and this is an average making weekly shows so inconsistent.

I find that explanation a bit to much out there but quite frankly, have been involved with other things to really look at peaks versus averages as he alludes to.
HDTVFanAtic is offline  
post #291 of 292 Old 09-13-2006, 01:09 AM
AVS Special Member
 
videojanitor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Here's what I've noticed, in observing the bit rates of everything in the mux -- it just depends what is on all of the streams at any given time, and that varies from night to night and week to week. Sometimes, there are only a few with active video, and a bunch with just color bars -- when that happens, the streams with programming get high, continuous rates, sometimes sitting pegged at ~16 Mb/s. As soon as programming appears on other streams, they start sharing the available bits, and the average rate goes down. Except for observing this on the MPEG analyzer though, I can't say that I can SEE any difference.
videojanitor is offline  
post #292 of 292 Old 09-24-2006, 10:38 AM
Member
 
niceguy321's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 59
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
my prison break was 14mbps again this week. Hopefully its the same tomorrow.
niceguy321 is offline  
Closed Thread HDTV Programming

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off