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HDTV Programming > The Magic 8 Ball speaks out on FOX HDTV - More Bits Are HERE!
ctmooregottapee's Avatar ctmooregottapee 07:14 AM 09-02-2006
foxeng, could you possibly comment on an odd issue that has started this past week

it seems different timezones are getting different bit rates, from the normal 8-10mbps video only on dramas, to the west receiving 14.8mbps video only, just like the live sports/events, on dramas

i wouldn't have caught it except two shows this past week looked really good for a change so i investigated, saw Justice was 35mm based which def helps as most fox is cheap super 16. i also noticed that the dreaded PQ grain/blockiness on scene changes went away.

maybe they are testing, or maybe something that used to be muxed with the west coast is gone for now, who knows.
def shows that bit rate is a big factor in PQ so far.

i should clarify that unlike many here it seems, i'm not an idiot with this stuff. this is a straight US OTA Fox capture, not directv's reencoded 13mbps or a local cable cos bandwidth shaping
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foxeng's Avatar foxeng 07:34 AM 09-02-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctmooregottapee
foxeng, could you possibly comment on an odd issue that has started this past week

it seems different timezones are getting different bit rates, from the normal 8-10mbps video only on dramas, to the west receiving 14.8mbps video only, just like the live sports/events, on dramas

i wouldn't have caught it except two shows this past week looked really good for a change so i investigated, saw Justice was 35mm based which def helps as most fox is cheap super 16. i also noticed that the dreaded PQ grain/blockiness on scene changes went away.

maybe they are testing, or maybe something that used to be muxed with the west coast is gone for now, who knows.
def shows that bit rate is a big factor in PQ so far.

i should clarify that unlike many here it seems, i'm not an idiot with this stuff. this is a straight US OTA Fox capture, not directv's reencoded 13mbps or a local cable cos bandwidth shaping
I have no direct knowledge of what might be happening. PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART but it could be that the network center is making changes with MNTV coming on. Unlike FOX, MNTV will not be using the spicer even though it will be at 720p and that could be part of it. Again, I have no direct knowledge. Wish I did.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 09:43 AM 09-02-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng
There is much more HD news than you think.
Yep, I know there are a lot out there, in bigger markets than mine. Sooner or later the three stations that actually do news will convert. I just don't know when.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 09:47 AM 09-02-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H
WFTV Orlando, FL
They too have HD Radar. I was there a month ago on business. It seems that it wasn't too long ago they went HD news.

I couldn't watch it in HD in the hotel room :-)
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 10:02 AM 09-02-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng
I have no direct knowledge of what might be happening. PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART but it could be that the network center is making changes with MNTV coming on. Unlike FOX, MNTV will not be using the spicer even though it will be at 720p and that could be part of it. Again, I have no direct knowledge. Wish I did.
For one thing, they are taking away one of the primary Fox Net sat transponders (G16/19) and converting it for MNTV. It will be QPSK, not 8PSK. I'm guessing the whole transponder will be for a single HD DVB signal. I should look during a test and see what it is configured at. I won't be able to see anything, since encryption will be on during the tests, but I will be able to see the mux configuration.

So, during MNTV uplinks, M->F, 1/2 of the Fox Net transponders will be gone. This will not affect weekend sports, for those who care, since MNTV isn't on during the weekend.

The two backup transponders on G3 will still be there.
TVOD's Avatar TVOD 04:55 PM 09-02-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo
So, during MNTV uplinks, M->F, 1/2 of the Fox Net transponders will be gone. This will not affect weekend sports, for those who care, since MNTV isn't on during the weekend.
I thought MNTV was also on Saturday with a recap show for the previous week.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 07:48 PM 09-02-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD
I thought MNTV was also on Saturday with a recap show for the previous week.
That could be, I just hadn't seen that anywhere. Even so, it still won't affect the Sunday sports.

I personally won't be watching either. :)
foxeng's Avatar foxeng 06:28 AM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo
For one thing, they are taking away one of the primary Fox Net sat transponders (G16/19) and converting it for MNTV.
I don't think that is correct. They were testing on G16/19 and the promos will be sent there, but nothing public that I know of has been said where the in pattern programming of MNTV will be.
foxeng's Avatar foxeng 06:30 AM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo
That could be, I just hadn't seen that anywhere. Even so, it still won't affect the Sunday sports.

I personally won't be watching either. :)
It is interesting you speak with such authority but have so many facts incorrect. MNTV runs M-Sa. M-F are the show runs with Saturday as a weekly wrap up. That has been around since MNTV was announced 6 months ago.
NetworkTV's Avatar NetworkTV 08:58 AM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng
It is interesting you speak with such authority but have so many facts incorrect. MNTV runs M-Sa. M-F are the show runs with Saturday as a weekly wrap up. That has been around since MNTV was announced 6 months ago.
It's all about credibility through confidence. People believe anything that is presented with a good stare in the eyes. Me? I rely soley on a handle like "NetworkTV" to instill confidence. ;)
foxeng's Avatar foxeng 11:39 AM 09-03-2006
Hey, I'm a mow-ron and proud of it!! ;)
bdfox18doe's Avatar bdfox18doe 11:50 AM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo
So, during MNTV uplinks, M->F, 1/2 of the Fox Net transponders will be gone. This will not affect weekend sports, for those who care, since MNTV isn't on during the weekend..
The (so far) full-time feed seems to be there right now..
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 12:50 PM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng
I don't think that is correct. They were testing on G16/19 and the promos will be sent there, but nothing public that I know of has been said where the in pattern programming of MNTV will be.
Wouldn't you find it a little strange to test "connectivity" at one location, only to feed at another, a little strange? There is the possibility that it might not work at a different location.

In my experience this would be a first, if the testing location and final location, were not the same.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 12:53 PM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng
It is interesting you speak with such authority but have so many facts incorrect. MNTV runs M-Sa. M-F are the show runs with Saturday as a weekly wrap up. That has been around since MNTV was announced 6 months ago.
Easy to miss a little thing like that when the new MNTV doesn't really catch my eye. I know for sure about the M->F part.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 01:09 PM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe
The (so far) full-time feed seems to be there right now..
There isn't any NFL football either. So why pull it if you don't have to.

I'm betting that next Sunday the MNTV feed on G16/19 will be reconfigured back for Fox Net usage for football, if they need the transponder to provide for the number of games that they have. I don't have a clue as to how many they are going to have next Sunday, as the press site lists nothing and the TV Guide print edition doesn't either.

IIRC, they brought up another transponder last year in order to cover all the games because they weren't running at the highest mux bitrate yet. So it would seem very strange to not reconfig the transponder back for Fox Net usage on Sundays.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 01:22 PM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by bdfox18doe
The (so far) full-time feed seems to be there right now..
Yep, DVB-S QPSK. I had to enter the bitrate into TDR-60 and have it give me the symbol rate for the DVB-S card in the PeeCee. I know, there is a formula I could have used, but the hardware reciever can give it to me faster :)

The video bitrate is running about 35Mbps. What sucks is that the MNTV HD video bitrate will be higher than what Fox Net is providing, potentially. If an affiliate has no secondary channels, they can go full out with their HD bitrate. Yet Fox affiliates do not have that choice.

Let's see what happens next Sunday.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 01:33 PM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng
Unlike FOX, MNTV will not be using the spicer even though it will be at 720p and that could be part of it.
Speculation on my part....

My guess is that MNTV is not using the splicer system because MNTV happened so fast that there was no way to put in and test the required 4.5 meter dishes and sub-systems in time for network launch.

It would be extremely easy to assign the MNTV network signal to one of the 8 available HD streams available on the two primary sat transponders and have the MNTV affiliate receivers tune that location. It would also give them backup potential for G16 failure.
TVOD's Avatar TVOD 01:33 PM 09-03-2006
OTH, MNTV is subject to the same variance that other networks have. It could very good, or look very bad on a station with an older encoder and/or low bit rates. Fox has shown that they can deliver a sustained 15Mb stream. However it remains to be seen if they'll do that. It's dipped to near half that since I saw the full bit rate. It's sort of amusing to think that MNTV and the CW will have some of the highest bitrates for network delivery.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 01:55 PM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD
It's sort of amusing to think that MNTV and the CW will have some of the highest bitrates for network delivery.
Add to that list ABC and CBS. Don't know what the NBC HD bitrate is since they went to two streams over their 8PSK mux. It certainly isn't as high as the other nets, but higher than Fox :D I'll have to ask the local NBC affiliate engineer if he knows.

As previously mentioned, even though The WB sends out a bitrate that is about equal to Fox, they don't have the macroblocking that I've seen on Fox, and both nets use Tandberg encoders (do not know if the model numbers are the same).

In a couple of weeks, The WB and UPN will be gone.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 02:05 PM 09-03-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD
OTH, MNTV is subject to the same variance that other networks have. It could very good, or look very bad on a station with an older encoder and/or low bit rates.
Hence my reason for saying potentially. It is very true that the station could easily have outdated encoders, etc., which will limit the quality provided to their viewers. At least the potential is there. With the Fox delivery system, the affiliates have zero choice in the matter.

I truly thought the quality was going to be a lot better than it actually is.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 01:47 AM 09-05-2006
I finally got a chance to edit tonight's "Prison Break" and discovered that the bitrate for the program was 15.00 Mbps. Damn!

Because of that, the capture of "Vanished" came up about 9 minutes short. I ran out of disc space. I figured there was enough, based upon previous captures.

I am having a hell'uv a time getting "Vanished." :(

Don't know if the macroblocking is still there, as I have to watch. Can't do that until they repeat the second episode, as I missed it due to a power failure. Now I need the 2nd and 3rd episodes of "Vanished."
TVOD's Avatar TVOD 02:05 AM 09-05-2006
Be careful what bit rates you wish for, it might come true :)

One good thing with Fox's low bit rates was that it's easy to store. I could fit an hour show on a single sided DVD.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 06:30 PM 09-05-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD
One good thing with Fox's low bit rates was that it's easy to store. I could fit an hour show on a single sided DVD.
Dual-sided burnable DVDs exist? Even if they do, I won't use them, as they would be extremely hard to print on in my printer. :)

Ya, the higher bitrate does cause the minor problem with today's DVDs being too small. Try working with a show like Veronica Mars, where my source means that an edited show requires THREE DVDs. It won't even fit on a dual/double layer DVD.

When I look at tonight's "House," which is a good episode BTW, I'll look to see if there are any macroblocking problems.

You'll have a love/hate relationship with tonight's ending.
niceguy321's Avatar niceguy321 07:03 PM 09-05-2006
I also noticed that- 1280 x 720, 59.94 fps, 25.00 Mbps (14.08 Mbps Average) - 4.5gb, usually ine are 2.93 gb. Very nice pq, here are some screens-
http://yogurtrat.com/files/1/snaps/pb203mpeg2-3.png
http://yogurtrat.com/files/1/snaps/pb203mpeg2-1.png
http://yogurtrat.com/files/1/snaps/pb203mpeg2-2.png
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 08:13 PM 09-05-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy321
I also noticed that- 1280 x 720, 59.94 fps, 25.00 Mbps (14.08 Mbps Average) - 4.5gb, usually ine are 2.93 gb. Very nice pq,
I'd like to know how you saw 25 Mbps when DTV doesn't support a data rate that high.

In any event, the proof is in the transitional scenes. That is where they have been having trouble.

BTW, your station's HD bug sucks horribly. I though the one my local station has sucked. Yours is even worse. Viewer friendly stations create transparent bugs.

It seems that many stations noticed that the bug creation rulebook that Fox released does not ban opaque bugs, so here they are. Give a station and inch and they take a mile.
niceguy321's Avatar niceguy321 08:40 PM 09-05-2006
Yeah, the red is distracting in my bug, but i forget about it most of the time. I don't know, that was from the mpeg2repair log once the commericials were cut.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 09:17 PM 09-05-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy321
Yeah, the red is distracting in my bug, but i forget about it most of the time.
Hard to ignore an opaque bug like that. Some stations just do not care. With DTV, it isn't necessary to have bugs anymore, but horrible habits like this are hard to die.

Quote:
I don't know, that was from the mpeg2repair log once the commericials were cut.
Was there something wrong with your recording that requires you to run the file through mpeg2repair? I use VideoReDo to edit my files, which also repairs files.

Tonight's Fox capture took 17GB, so the bitrate was up there again. The computer is busy with something else, so I can't look for macroblocking until later tonight.
niceguy321's Avatar niceguy321 09:35 PM 09-05-2006
I use videoredo also, but I run it through mpeg2repair anyways, I like the error reporting and that little info thing it gives at the end of a scan.
mrvideo's Avatar mrvideo 09:39 PM 09-05-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by niceguy321
I use videoredo also, but I run it through mpeg2repair anyways, I like the error reporting and that little info thing it gives at the end of a scan.
Ah, OK. I also use the error reporting (turn off the correction mode) to find the error locations of the two VM captures, so that I can create a clean edit.
videojanitor's Avatar videojanitor 01:14 AM 09-06-2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo
I finally got a chance to edit tonight's "Prison Break" and discovered that the bitrate for the program was 15.00 Mbps. Damn!
I was looking at "House" tonight and thought it looked GREAT. Very sharp, and even looking at it frame-by-frame, I didn't see any blocking at edit points. Looking at the bit rate, it wasn't VBR as I've seen in the past, but rather CBR, holding absolutely steady at just a shade over 16 Mb/s. No doubt this explains why the recorded files are so much larger. If this is their new mode of operation, I think people will be pleased. It looks sweet.
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