D*HD-Lite vs E* HD screenshot thread *WARNING - LARGE PICTURE FILES TO LOAD* - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 346 Old 07-29-2006, 10:24 AM
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I'm in the camp that feels that if a line conditioner had any value at all, they'd have first developed a line shampooer.
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post #62 of 346 Old 07-29-2006, 03:16 PM
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lol. nice and agreed...

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post #63 of 346 Old 07-29-2006, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

I'm in the camp that feels that if a line conditioner had any value at all, they'd have first developed a line shampooer.

They do have them, they're combo packages and they're called a power supply. If the power supply in an "affected" piece of equipment is so bad that it can't deal with normal line fluctuations or noise, the person that designed it ought to be shot.

Modern power supplies are very forgiving when it comes to line voltage fluctuations and noise, some will even put out a clean DC current with as little as 70 volts and as high as 140 volts. If the incoming line fluctuates that much then there is a problem with your power company.
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post #64 of 346 Old 07-29-2006, 04:49 PM
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The Riddick shot matches what I see on D*. Anything with any fast motion just breaks up into squares. And sorry, a $150 Monster HDMI cable isn't going to fix the bit starving that D* is employing.

WOTW last weekend looked absolutely awful on D* (HBO-HD). It was so pixelated that I gave up and put in the DVD - which looked much better.
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post #65 of 346 Old 07-29-2006, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

I'm in the camp that feels that if a line conditioner had any value at all, they'd have first developed a line shampooer.

ROFLMAO


I suppose those of us using D* would have to also buy the 'coloring' attachment too!

John M
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post #66 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 03:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jfischer View Post

The Riddick shot matches what I see on D*. Anything with any fast motion just breaks up into squares. And sorry, a $150 Monster HDMI cable isn't going to fix the bit starving that D* is employing.

WOTW last weekend looked absolutely awful on D* (HBO-HD). It was so pixelated that I gave up and put in the DVD - which looked much better.

Ahh forgot about this movie. It really is awful on D* HBO.
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post #67 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Independence Day

For this movie there is not enough bitrate for E* HBO to decrease macroblocking. Still its higher resolution has the edge PQ wise over D*

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post #68 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 06:29 AM
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I guess I must be blind because I honestly have not seen any differences in any of the pics other then a little better color on one set on the first page.

So you guys are telling me that there is a big difference in these pics between D* and E* (one way or another)?

Perhaps that's why I've never understood the outcry against D*'s HD quality, I just don't notice it and I'd gather most of Joe Sixpack can't either. Kind of like audio I guess. I can tell the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS. But most people I know can't tell the difference at all and think I'm crazy that I want DTS when at all possible in my DVD movies. Same goes for this HD quality thing. There are some people out there that can tell the difference. But many (most?) cannot.

I guess I got better ears then eyes!

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post #69 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 07:53 AM
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Don't see significant differences either, although did spot them with images within the long thread about HDNet Movies picture quality. There, recall some 'zoomed' cropping of details brought out differences. This, apparently, enables smaller images to posted, perhaps even within the forum's limits without using external image-posting links. Always thought that posting a relatively small, even B&W image, of the HD frame being used as an example, then extracting 1/3 of the image, say 1920/640 horizontally, containing the best color and/or fine details, might be a good comparison between two HD sources. Then again, since I don't tinker in this area, could be way off base. -- John
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post #70 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 09:07 AM
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The motion shot from 'Riddick' is the best example of the problem D* is having with their "HD" PQ that I have seen so far. Thanks for posting it! I will direct anyone who is interested in HD from D* to that picture to illustrate the problems.

If D* didn't have a monopoly on Sunday Ticket, I would switch to E*.
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post #71 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loco View Post

If D* didn't have a monopoly on Sunday Ticket, I would switch to E*.

The problem is there's *no reason* to believe that E* will be able to maintain their current "advantage." The 900lb gorilla (HD-LiL) is pounding on the door, and reports have it that E*'s attempts (so far) at using real-time MPEG4 compression, leave much to be desired ... and so the DBS world churns.

All together now, sing it: Churnin', churnin', proud Mary keep on churnin'
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post #72 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

The problem is there's *no reason* to believe that E* will be able to maintain their current "advantage." The 900lb gorilla (HD-LiL) is pounding on the door, and reports have it that E*'s attempts (so far) at using real-time MPEG4 compression, leave much to be desired ... and so the DBS world churns.

All together now, sing it: Churnin', churnin', proud Mary keep on churnin'


This is very true.

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post #73 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bonscott87 View Post

I guess I must be blind because I honestly have not seen any differences in any of the pics other then a little better color on one set on the first page.

So you guys are telling me that there is a big difference in these pics between D* and E* (one way or another)?

Perhaps that's why I've never understood the outcry against D*'s HD quality, I just don't notice it and I'd gather most of Joe Sixpack can't either. Kind of like audio I guess. I can tell the difference between Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS. But most people I know can't tell the difference at all and think I'm crazy that I want DTS when at all possible in my DVD movies. Same goes for this HD quality thing. There are some people out there that can tell the difference. But many (most?) cannot.

I guess I got better ears then eyes!

I absolutely see a big difference in the full motion captures, especially the one from Riddick. The D* picture is breaking up into blocks where the E* picture isn't.

Just in case any D* people want to get on me and call me biased, I currently subscribe to D* and have been for nearly 12 years.

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post #74 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 02:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Most AVSrs who have seen both providers know exactly where to look to see the difference. I just might post these at a much higher resolution to help others who cant see it(I understand not everyone has 20/20 vision). My problem of zooming and/or cropping the picture to highlight the quality like everyone uses is, who among you watch these movies at that distance? I want to show you guys the overall image like how you would watch.

@John Mason

There is no significant difference at first glance and thats expected. You just have to know what to look for i.e. solid lines and the amount of macroblocking. People have different setups and that also will determine what they see.

Regarding ID4 if you look at the bitrates its close thats why E* PQ is almost at par with HDlite. When you are watching full HD the bitrates has to be high enough to compensate for the added resolution. That is one of the few things AVSrs agree on

I will make adjustments as I post more pictures. You guys can also help me by mentioning some specific scene where we can make comparisons(preferrably upcoming shows so I don't have to dig thru my hard drive collections).
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post #75 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenBoy View Post

I absolutely see a big difference in the full motion captures, especially the one from Riddick. The D* picture is breaking up into blocks where the E* picture isn't.

Just in case any D* people want to get on me and call me biased, I currently subscribe to D* and have been for nearly 12 years.

So very true. DVD version of this thru HD-AI is much better(Heck any decent upconverting player will do). No macroblocking and huge difference in PQ.
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post #76 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 02:47 PM
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Are you using the higher bitrate feeds from 148 when doing these caps from HBO/SHO?
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post #77 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 03:26 PM
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E* was installed yesterday after having D* for six years. After a few hours of comparing IMO E* does look better. E* does better with fast movement where D* breaks up. It seems even the Voom channels look better than D*s main hd channels. Not sure how this could be but its definately noticable. E*s picture reminds me of how D* used to look. Not a huge difference but IMO its worth swiching providers for increased pq.
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post #78 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRock View Post

E* Dish Network looks much sharper to me and also seems to have better color.

But to be fair both look much better than what I was lead to believe. From some of the posts I have read it made it seem like both of those providers(E and D) HD content looked horrible. It probably also helps that I Robot seems to have had an excellent transfer.

With Dish Network's great HD channel lineup I might need to check them out.


I have COX Cable in Orange County.

Motorola 6412 III HD DVR

Sony KV-34XBR910 Television

I would agree with the color statment. But I would not say that E* is "much" sharper. Sharper yes, but very small.

edit: Ok, I just the other sets of pics. It is pretty obvious. It looks to me like the D8 pictures have this graineness to them. I understand that, but could someone explain how the color can be better. I don't understand how a higher bit rate could incerase color clarity.

carry on with your HD-Lite Directv loving banter! <--Comedy Gold
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post #79 of 346 Old 07-30-2006, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

The problem is there's *no reason* to believe that E* will be able to maintain their current "advantage." The 900lb gorilla (HD-LiL) is pounding on the door, and reports have it that E*'s attempts (so far) at using real-time MPEG4 compression, leave much to be desired ... and so the DBS world churns.

All together now, sing it: Churnin', churnin', proud Mary keep on churnin'

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go and spoil the party! You're right, of course.
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post #80 of 346 Old 07-31-2006, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

The problem is there's *no reason* to believe that E* will be able to maintain their current "advantage." The 900lb gorilla (HD-LiL) is pounding on the door, and reports have it that E*'s attempts (so far) at using real-time MPEG4 compression, leave much to be desired ... and so the DBS world churns.

All together now, sing it: Churnin', churnin', proud Mary keep on churnin'

We'll enjoy it while it lasts then. I guess a lot of people, specially here, will reevaluate the value of HD (specially movie channels) once good transfers of HDDVD/Bluray become more available and the players become more accessible. Problem will be with std progrmaming that will be hard to get on disc.
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post #81 of 346 Old 07-31-2006, 06:01 PM
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Well, I just re-signed up with Time Warner and their bundled services and this is the first time I have put a good signal on my Sony WEGA SXRD. I knew that Directv was bad, but come on! All of the HD offerings from TW make Directv look STUPID !

I have the Directv H20 connected to one of my HDMI ports and the TW 8300 HD DVR on the other HDMI port and there is NO COMPARISON. My local HD channels via Direct Directv mpeg4 look anemic compared to cable. Washed out and dull and fuzzy. INHD live baseball is breathtaking.

Goodbye Directv. Since Dish does not give me locals in HD, I could not consider them....

Finally, my 1080p set is proving its worth!

My HD DNS days are kaput!
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post #82 of 346 Old 07-31-2006, 08:04 PM
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Can you guys explain why you call DirecTV, D* and Dish Network, E*?
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post #83 of 346 Old 07-31-2006, 10:37 PM
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general laziness...

personally, i prefer to just spell out directv...what are you saving, 1/3 of a second?

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post #84 of 346 Old 07-31-2006, 10:40 PM
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Basically yes, even though I'm guilty of it myself sometimes I think it is just lazy, forum slang.

D* stands for DirecTV
E* stands for Echostar, the company the own/runs Dish Network.
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post #85 of 346 Old 08-01-2006, 01:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Alien vs Predator

D* AVB 9.90 Mbps

E* AVB 10.30 Mbps


Hint:

Stop looking at the pretty yellow flame instead look at the floor and notice that on D* macroblocking is everywhere and the image details are gone. D* suffers horribly whenever there is fast motion. You will also notice that the bitrates are very close but on this particular movie it doesn't matter.

D* is doing a superb job compressing and downrezing the movie to make it look like your watching xvid encoded movie

Up next War of the Worlds

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post #86 of 346 Old 08-01-2006, 01:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Are you using the higher bitrate feeds from 148 when doing these caps from HBO/SHO?

Not on these caps. I'm using 119,110 and 129 currently.
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post #87 of 346 Old 08-01-2006, 01:51 AM - Thread Starter
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I will eventually post 1920x1080i screen caps but on my discretion so please stop asking me about it.

Thanks.
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post #88 of 346 Old 08-01-2006, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xylon View Post

Stop looking at the pretty yellow flame instead look at the floor and notice that on D* macroblocking is everywhere and the image details are gone. D* suffers horribly whenever there is fast motion.

What areas, exactly, should I be comparing for macroblocking and absent details? Not seeing this on my Dell 20" LCD set to 800X600. Sure appreciate all the effort needed for image comparisons, but just not seeing differences. Not saying D* doesn't screw up PQ (from all the complaints), but just can't see it here. -- John
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post #89 of 346 Old 08-01-2006, 07:10 AM
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Look at the steps under the pretty flames for one - it's extremely obvious once you look in the right spot and matches what I see on DirecTV all the time... In this particular case, there's some blocking, but the main difference is that almost all of the fine detail and texture that's visible in the E* picture has been smoothed over in the D* one.
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post #90 of 346 Old 08-01-2006, 07:22 AM
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The steps are obvious, but if you must look at the pretty flame, check out the top of the flame just above the 3rd step (looks like a wave cresting towards the victim). The E* screenshot shows a distinct "v" notch that is almost completely smoothed out in the D* screenshot.

Another clear difference is the shooters left arm - looking at the jacket's wrinkles in the fabric from inside the elbow all the way down to the end of the sleeve.

If those aren't apparent, increase the resolution of your monitor.
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