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post #631 of 6863 Old 11-12-2007, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by dad1153 View Post


First, does anybody know where the title of this episode comes from? Sounds like something from a Shakespeare play ("A Midsummer Night's Dream" maybe?) but I'm not really sure.

Actually, it's from the children's book "Where the Wild Things Are". A brief summary I came across has plenty of connections to the episode, both to Dexter and Deb's storylines; this truly is a great show:


Max is so mischevious that his mother calls him a wild thing and sends him to bed without dinner. That night a forest grew in his room and he sailed many miles to the land of the wild things. With one look he tamed them and became king of the wild things. Max had a wonderful time being wild until he realized that he was lonely and wanted to be where he was loved. And so he sailed back to his own room, where he finds his supper waiting for him, and it's still hot.
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post #632 of 6863 Old 11-12-2007, 06:49 PM
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^^^

Wow, that's deep man!
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post #633 of 6863 Old 11-12-2007, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyV View Post

The "pardon my tits" line was absolutely classic. I laughed so hard. Can this show get any better?

Deb, to Dex: "who's the skank?"

Dex: "don't you knock?"

Deb: "what is all this [eyeing all the candles]? are you gonna burn her?"

Just wonderful stuff! I think Jennifer's rendition of sort of a blue-collar sister/cop is perfect, not amateurish. Great casting.
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post #634 of 6863 Old 11-12-2007, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by teevman View Post

i can see dexter and lila joining forces in the fight against evil

I can see Dexter having to kill Lila.
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post #635 of 6863 Old 11-12-2007, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by rkhopkins View Post

And I agree with dad, a really nice moment with Deb and Lundy at the park bench.

Again, great writing on this scene. Both players cautious for their own reasons, not really wanting to let things play out. Deb finally verbalizes it all from her perspective, and then sits back in wonderment and [to the water] says "hey, I'm really kind of opening up here".

These writers are fantastic. This was really a wonderful and touching strangely May/December scene (nothing like her gym-partner/writer "smokin' hot, age appropriate" former boyfriend), ending with both of them taking a bite of their respective sandwiches and silently reflecting in the afterglow of their tentative first kiss, staring straight ahead, realizing what just happened.

Best show on TV.

Incidentally, I listen to it through Stax headphones (with DD5.1 processed to L/R-stereo by my Pioneer DIR-SE1000C) and the sound mixing on this show is FANTASTIC! There is plenty of properly balanced clean low frequencies and crystal clear mids and highs, like when Lundy was playing that wonderful jazz in the office, and when Deb was listening to Chopin's piano through her ear buds. Of course the opening credits sound remarkable. You can hear a pin drop.
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post #636 of 6863 Old 11-12-2007, 09:09 PM
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Love the show. Only watched a few episodes of the first season but I know enough to know mostly what's going on. Heck, I think you could watch this show from the start of season 2 and still enjoy it a lot.
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post #637 of 6863 Old 11-12-2007, 11:05 PM
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Just watched the most recent ep. What nobody mentioned is that this is another one of the few eps were Dexter doesn't kill. I hate it when an ep goes by without a Dexter execution.

I'm surprised some people don't like the "new" Dexter. Before he was just a vigilante murderer a la "The Punisher" (hence the Dark Defender crap). But now he is much more, more complex, more intriguing. I mean, come on, did any of you really expect the show "Dexter" to run for several years and NOT have his character change and evolve?

Come on now. (Sorry, it beared repeating again).

What was great about the last ep is that Dexter owns Doakes, manipulates others and gets away with it. AT THE SAME TIME Dexter is being manipulated by Lila, the only person who actually has some power over him. He also can't outsmart Lundy, which is another interesting storyline.

I am still bugged that we have seen Lila naked a lot, but only have seen Rita's rear end. I mean, come on, Julie Benz is not a household name that she can opt out of all nudity. I want to see her nude, frontally especially, in HD!
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post #638 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

I think this season is much WILDER than the first. season 1 was all about the origin story and the identity of the ITK. dex, we knew, would be dex. this season, dex is changing, possibly unraveling. lyla and lundy raise the complications and rev up the tension to entirely new levels. there are so many oh sh** moments this year. we don't know where all this is going. we may be looking at a game changer. most shows just do not shake things up this much on the 2nd season. it's messy and not as "perfect" as season 1. but like a high wire act with no net it's a thrill to watch..

Wilder in an OC sense of way. Lila is certainly a distraction from... the... more... pressing... matters...

But, tamer in the running count of glass slides of blood drops, when was the last time dex opened his air conditioner cover? [Actually, did he toss the box or did he hold them back?]
---

Btw, Lila is one crazy psycho chick, and we are talking about a show with lots of crazy psychos running around. Her story about burning down her ex-bf's house and killing him. I wonder if she killed him only because he figured out she's a crazy psycho and was about to dump her. It could very well be that Lila's pyromania had consumed other victims before. Innocent ones perhaps?
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post #639 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by pappy97 View Post

I am still bugged that we have seen Lila naked a lot, but only have seen Rita's rear end. I mean, come on, Julie Benz is not a household name that she can opt out of all nudity. I want to see her nude, frontally especially, in HD!

Agreed. I want to see Julie Benz naked/half naked. That would be great.
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post #640 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 07:10 AM
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Episode was a great one. Doakes and Lila are both heading for a fall. Seems Dex may be setting up Doakes vs killing him as the BHB.

Lila 'dark' side is finally starting to show. She is so close to dexter that like Dex brother she may have to be taken out. I figure Lila is going to try and hurt Rita and the kids.

Now I almost have to say in a way this is Dex fault. He went with crazy (Lila) who is fine till runs back to Rita's kids when they call. If only he would have left Rita's brood alone he and Lila would be happy (i'm reaching fyi)
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post #641 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 08:28 AM
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man, this show is becoming one of the great thrillers of all time. this season has been so great, I can only hope the writers have come up with an ending it deserves.

and what will they do for season 3?
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post #642 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 11:19 AM
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Dunno about that one. They certainly seem to be boxing themselves in for season 3.

There's no happy ending for Deb and Lundy no matter how you play it out. No way they stay together if he nails Dex and no way I believe Lundy becomes a part of the family without ever picking up on Dex possibly being BHB.

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post #643 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber View Post

Deb, to Dex: "who's the skank?"

Dex: "don't you knock?"

Deb: "what is all this [eyeing all the candles]? are you gonna burn her?"

Just wonderful stuff! I think Jennifer's rendition of sort of a blue-collar sister/cop is perfect, not amateurish. Great casting.

I think it was more like " are you going to f**k her or burn her ?"

Truly outstanding show....
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post #644 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 01:06 PM
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Some "Dexter" actors were in a Los Angeles SAG actors' protest today at Universal Studios in support of the striking WAG writers:

The WGA Strike
Actors Swarm Universal! Universal Cries Uncle!
From Verne Gay's Newsdsay 'TV Zone' Blog - November 13, 2007

The actor are attacking!! The actors are attacking!!

Now this strike is starting to get really interesting. Just about 28 minutes ago, about half the known television actors in Hollywood stormed the gates of the Bastille - or, more specifically, the main gates at Universal Studios in Universal City (in the land where the sun never stops shining.)

I mean, you have to SEE this list. Dozens and dozens of actors at Universal - and not a hairdresser in sight! Lord, I wish I was there to witness this preening, primping preponderance of currently unemployed thespians. At least I hope "Extra's" on hand. Here's the list just released by the WGA; check it out and see if YOU can tell who isn't on the picket line right now. It's like trying to find Waldo. Also, check out the last line of this WGA bulletin: It says "more" actors are showing up too. "More?!"

...blah, blah, blah...

Dexter: Keith Carradine, James Remar, C.S. Lee.

...blah, blah, blah.

Other celebrities slated attend to support the WGA include: Ben Stiller, Lisa Kudrow, Matthew Perry, Jason Alexander, Frances Fisher, Camryn Manheim, Edie McClurg, Susan Savage, Mimi Kennedy, and more.

http://weblogs.newsday.com/entertain...l_univers.html
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post #645 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dad1153 View Post

Lots to chew on about last night's masterpiece. Where to start?

Dexter is messing up more than ever but in the process of screwing-up he isn't aware that he's slipping. Having sex with Lila in a stranger's home? Dumb. Sending a manifesto to the Herald to throw his police operatives off because of some perceived ideas Lila implanted in his head after sex about him taking the initiative? Really dumb and it backfired badly on Dex because he underestimated Lundy, who has figured out his modus operandi and now will pursue the law enforcement background profile. Taunting Doakes about being a step ahead of him before he sets Doakes up for beating on Dex in front of witnesses? Extremely dumb because now Doakes is unshackled by law enforcement regulations and can pursue Dex on his own. I don't buy the idea that Dex set-up Doakes to save his friend at county records that came to plead for help to save her pension. Dex's voice-overs made it clear he had it with Doakes and wanted him out of the way.

The new Dexter is substituting the thrill of killing that kept him in check with the thrill of living dangerously on the edge of the precipice of getting caught, a direct influence of his exposure to Lila. It took a call from Rita's son Cody for the old Dex to resurface and remind him of the things that meant something and used to be important in his life besides having great care-free sex and taunting his co-workers with 'Presto Manifesto' blogs from the internet. Rita's and Lila's reactions to Dexter's actions toward the end (one burning out her place, the other feeling betrayed yet again for being third wheel) indicate that he's become a PONG ball bouncing back and forth between these two women. Will Rita take the initiative to get Dex back? Or will Dex snap out of his infatuation to Lila and do a background check on her to see what her troubled past is hiding? Maybe Lila's done some bad things that could give Dexter an excuse to apply Harry's Code on her IF the old Dexter can convince Rita to take him back. As someone else said it was nice to see Rita stand up to her dominating mother. I also cheered when Rita told her to shut the f*** up even though it was past 1AM and my neighbors probably heard me. Maybe I should start watching "Dexter" earlier and push my DVR'ed viewing of "The Amazing Race" and "Extreme Makeover: Home Edition" into the overnight hours.

For once in a "Dexter" episode the Deborah story arc was more interesting and fun to watch than big brother's (not really fan of the new Dex although I'm enjoying the rollercoaster ride). Since this season started I kept wondering what the use of Deb's Salvadorean boy toy was to the story and if he'd turn out to be another serial killer for Dex to dispatch (or some twisted s*** like that). When Deb broke-up with her boyfriend in bed after the whole Chopin thing with Lundy it hit me: this is the perfect guy for her, the Prince she's been looking for since forever (the type of guy she would have loved to meet in Season 1). He's good-looking, puts up with Deb's crap, a great lay and potentially great father material (i.e. a children's book author). And yet Deb's insecurity about relationships with men after (a) what Harry put her through when he showed preference to Dex and (b) the trauma of being nearly killed by the ITK prevents Deb from sticking with this perfect guy. Ironically (and very much like many real-life relationships between older men and younger women), despite Harry being responsible for Deb's relationship problems, she's attracted to Lundy precisely because she longs for another chance to have the father-daughter (or mentor-disciple) relationship she was deprived of because of Harry's devotion to Dexter. And it was fun to watch Deb play relationship expert with Dexter and Rita when she herself is a mess of contradictions about her own relations with men.

Jennifer Carpenter's acting in "Dexter" is often criticized in message boards elsewhere as amateurish and not up the standards of the rest of the cast (Eric King gets similar criticism for the way he plays Doakes). In this episode her performance was spot-on precisely because Deborah's nervousness and self-doubt about her feelings for Lundy have been quietly building for the past 3 or 4 episodes. Unlike many shows/movies in which older man dating/marrying younger women is broadly played or stereotypical in last night's episode it felt genuine and truthful. Tremendous acting by Keith Carradine along with Carpenter on that park bench (one of the best scenes in the "Dexter" canon w/o M.C. Hall) with both actors doing little besides looking like wounded, lonely people tentatively giving each other another chance at love. But would it have killed Deb to take those big-ass sunglasses off? LOL! It felt kind-of awkward to go from that scene in the bench to the squad room where Lundy figured out the BHB was playing them (I would have reversed it and shown that scene first, followed by the meeting with the Miami Herald editors and then the park bench lunch).

BTW, Deb meeting face-to-tits with Lila in Dex's apartment has got to be one of the funniest meetings in the show's history. I know I can't stop saying 'pardon my tits' to my co-workers this morning, which is making them more uncomfortable around me than usual.

Now the card that's left to be played by "Dexter's" writers is what is Lundy truly like behind the controlled, calm demeanor he presents to the outside world. If Lundy is a sinister character with ulterior motives he could take advantage of Deb's vulnerability, pull another ITK and use her to lure Dexter out in the open (assuming he suspects the other Morgan sibling of being the BHB). Maybe he'll put Deb under hypnosis and unearth from her subconscious the conversations between Dexter and Brian/Rudy while she was tied to the table in the shack. Or Lundy could turn out to be a straight arrow that discovers Dex is the BHB but, because of his love for Deborah and to spare her the trauma of seeing her brother become known as a serial killer, Lundy will spare Dex and frame somebody else for the BHB crimes. Or could both men (or one of them on a pinch) use Deb's traumatized ITK relationship, her access to the police department, access to Dexter's boat/forensic tools and psychological profile to frame Deborah for the BHB crimes?

Maybe that's the endgame because, as we saw last night, the new Dexter isn't shy of framing innocent people (like poor Mr. Wilson) momentarily if it will help him achieve his new goals of deception and being a step ahead of everybody else. It could go any which of a million possible ways at this point. I'm just glad that, for once, the Deborah story arc was far more interesting and fun to follow than Rita's or Lila's story arcs (though the latter is a clear danger sign of things ahead for our favorite Miami serial... I mean, former-for-the-time-being-until-he-gets-his-****-together favorite Miami serial killer). Now excuse me while I try to download some Chopin music on my PSP MP3 playing software...

Love your posts...keep 'em coming!!!!
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post #646 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Neo1965 View Post

Her story about burning down her ex-bf's house and killing him. I wonder if she killed him only because he figured out she's a crazy psycho and was about to dump her. It could very well be that Lila's pyromania had consumed other victims before. Innocent ones perhaps?

I forgot about that!!! Thanks!! A pyro-killer -- now the key is whether the killings were "justified" or not???? If not, Lila could be "dead meat" before season's end.....
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post #647 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mylan View Post

I think it was more like " are you going to f**k her or burn her ?"

RIGHT! Thanks for the correction. I knew it was a fantastic line but had already deleted it from the DVR and couldn't quite reconstruct it properly when reading this thread last night and wanting to reply. I tried my best, but you're right.

" are you going to f**k her or burn her ?"

Unbelievable! "who's the skank?" still makes me laugh, right up there with "pardon my tits"!

Also, what makes Deb so appealing is her realistic mix of sort of boyish tom-boy physical charms (she's certainly not got a lot of cleavage, and she's definitely not got an hourglass shape.. in contrast, say, to Rita) and her overt and blatant sex drive. Plus she's not afraid to handcuff her partners to the bed (for good reason but nevertheless very playful and sexy) and "be on top".

I actually liked it when she didn't take off her sunglasses on the bench with Lundy, in spite of all that was happening. Kind of gave her something to hide behind so she wouldn't reveal too much of what was inside her (possibly even tears), as exposed eyes can.
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post #648 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 02:26 PM
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Quite alright, there are so many one liners and layers to this show it is hard to keep them all straight. I find myself reading these posts just to refresh my memory or to better understand something I did not catch the first time. Sometimes a rose is just a rose but rarely is that the case on this show.
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post #649 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by vblyth View Post

With Dexter commenting at the end that her light was fixed, I think he realized that the fire wasn't an accident (again) and that she would do anything to get the results she wants.

I heard Dex's comment, and wanted at the time to think this was presented to us as some kind of an insight on Dex's part, but still don't make this connection (although you're possibly quite right).

Sure, I'm sure there was significance to Lila's earlier remarks that she'd been bugging her landlord about fixing her light and he hadn't done it, and now the light is fixed (most likely because they broke the landlord's bulb as another bit stronger attempt to leave a message).

But how does Lila's now fixed light bulb give anything away to Dex about how the fire started, or that Lila may be a super-jealous pyromania-vengeance control-freak (as is now appearing to be the case as we get to learn more about her)? Sure, if he suddenly connects her as being the self-started source of the fire he's going to have additional second thoughts and new insights (in light of her earlier tale of burning down the ex-bf's house with him in it), but how does the fixed light bulb do that for him? I'm obviously dense here.

What am I missing?
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post #650 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mylan View Post

I think it was more like " are you going to f**k her or burn her ?"

Truly outstanding show....

I believe it's "are you going to f*** her or set her on fire?"

that line may prove prescient! dexter seems doomed to kill the one who understands him best.

can someone remind me what exactly he said at the school presentation. "Lila stops me from killing, but it's being here with Rita and the kids that make me feel clean"? I think that's the whole key to this season's theme.
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post #651 of 6863 Old 11-13-2007, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

I believe it's "are you going to f*** her or set her on fire?"

Now THAT finally sounds like it has the right rhythm! I think you've got it! Certainly sounds the most familiar, as I mull it over.

(we sound like the writers, trying to iron out this obviously great line for Deb until it's just perfect)


Quote:


that line may prove prescient! dexter seems doomed to kill the one who understands him best.

Indeed. That may well be how Dex deals with all of this recent "cleansing", as the monster within struggles to regain control.

Although I do think he enjoyed the "what step was that?" therapy.
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post #652 of 6863 Old 11-14-2007, 10:25 AM
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I heard Dex's comment, and wanted at the time to think this was presented to us as some kind of an insight on Dex's part, but still don't make this connection (although you're possibly quite right).

Sure, I'm sure there was significance to Lila's earlier remarks that she'd been bugging her landlord about fixing her light and he hadn't done it, and now the light is fixed (most likely because they broke the landlord's bulb as another bit stronger attempt to leave a message).

But how does Lila's now fixed light bulb give anything away to Dex about how the fire started, or that Lila may be a super-jealous pyromania-vengeance control-freak (as is now appearing to be the case as we get to learn more about her)? Sure, if he suddenly connects her as being the self-started source of the fire he's going to have additional second thoughts and new insights (in light of her earlier tale of burning down the ex-bf's house with him in it), but how does the fixed light bulb do that for him? I'm obviously dense here.

What am I missing?

Lila exhibited destructive manipulation tactics to get her landlord to fix her light. So right after Dexter is FORCED to console Lila he sees she was right in her assessment that her scheme would work. That would show someone like Dexter that this is probably not the first time she has done something like this and leaves the thought that perhaps he, like the landlord, was a victim of her manipulation. It also opens our minds to think about just how far she would go to get what she wants, past or present.

I think this season's writing is great. I loved the beginning as I went back and forth if Dexter was painting or having sex until we saw what was going on. I thought the fixed light was profound and hope Dexter reacts to it rather than ignore it. A few people question some of Dexter's choices but you have to remember emotion is new to him. He has never felt love, guilt, or sorrow before. He also never gave into pure passion before Lila. He is unstable and everything (mistakes included) are displayed perfectly.

No one here mentioned Lundy's uncomfortable pause when he suggested the BHB was Law Enforcement and someone asked, "How do you know?". Red Herring? Maybe, maybe not. Right now it looks as if Doakes will go down for this but this series has a way of catching us all off guard. Masuka in my mind is untouchable. Social degenerate but good guy overall and needed for comic relief. Angel has had a much smaller role this year. Maybe that could take away from our compassion for him if something from his past resurfaced. I doubt they would go there but you never know.
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post #653 of 6863 Old 11-14-2007, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by DSperber View Post

I actually liked it when she didn't take off her sunglasses on the bench with Lundy, in spite of all that was happening.

Unrelated, but I cannot stand the blue blocker sunglasses that women wear today.
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post #654 of 6863 Old 11-14-2007, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jamesflames View Post

No one here mentioned Lundy's uncomfortable pause when he suggested the BHB was Law Enforcement and someone asked, "How do you know?". Red Herring? Maybe, maybe not. Right now it looks as if Doakes will go down for this but this series has a way of catching us all off guard.

Guess you missed my post about this very topic (#630) :

"...both Lundy and Dexter make references to classical music in this episode (Lundy about Chopin and Dexter about 'playing' Lundy's taskforce with a 'requiem'). Also, when Batista questions how Lundy could know that the BHB was someone with a law enforcement background, the screen cuts to Lundy without saying a word before going to another scene. Are these clues that Lundy and Dexter are closer to each other than we've been lead to believe? And third and last, holy effen s*** at the previews for next week's episode! It's going to be a heart-attack to just wait for next Sunday to roll around so we can then get a heart-attack from watching the new "Dexter."
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post #655 of 6863 Old 11-14-2007, 03:05 PM
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the logical leap from "he's obviously messing with, making us waste our time chasing our tails" to "he's law enforcement" seems kinda dubious to me. the killer doesn't have to be law enforcement or have any kind of inside info to be doing what's he doing. he just needs to watch the million serial killer TV shows to get an idea about "profiling" and follow the local news to know an FBI hotshot is handling the case.

edit: now the fact that BHB goes after killers is much more plausible in term of pointing to someone in law enforcement. It's easy enough for somebody to find low level thugs, drug dealers, prostitutes, and the like, to kill. But to find KILLERS of different stripes and backgrounds, some of whom have gone undetected, that takes some dedication. It'd help a lot to be in law enforcement.

btw, something I'm not clear on. Does Lundy know that every victim is a killer? have they tracked them all down to see what they (might) have done?
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post #656 of 6863 Old 11-14-2007, 03:13 PM
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Lila exhibited destructive manipulation tactics to get her landlord to fix her light. So right after Dexter is FORCED to console Lila he sees she was right in her assessment that her scheme would work. That would show someone like Dexter that this is probably not the first time she has done something like this and leaves the thought that perhaps he, like the landlord, was a victim of her manipulation. It also opens our minds to think about just how far she would go to get what she wants, past or present.

Aha! Now I see. Of course breaking a light bulb and setting your own professional studio and finished creations on fire are dramatically different in scale, so maybe this gives Dex even more reason for concern than I initially measured it as.

Many thanks.
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post #657 of 6863 Old 11-14-2007, 03:31 PM
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Doakes will pursue Dexter full time now.
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post #658 of 6863 Old 11-14-2007, 04:36 PM
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^^^ Precisely, which is why the new care-free Dexter is a far cry from the cool and collected serial killer from Season 1 we knew and loved (!). That Dex would have never sent a manifesto to the Miami Herald or head-butted Doakes because he would have coldly calculated that (a) Lundy or somebody else as clever could use that manifesto to deduct he's in law enforcement and (b) a loose Doakes off the police force is far more dangerous than one confined by police rules. Dex's perceived triumphs on last week's episode (including having great sex and a more care-free relationship with Lila) can only come back to haunt him big time over the next five episodes. Can't wait!
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post #659 of 6863 Old 11-14-2007, 06:54 PM
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^^^ Precisely, which is why the new care-free Dexter is a far cry from the cool and collected serial killer from Season 1 we knew and loved (!). That Dex would have never sent a manifesto to the Miami Herald or head-butted Doakes because he would have coldly calculated that (a) Lundy or somebody else as clever could use that manifesto to deduct he's in law enforcement and (b) a loose Doakes off the police force is far more dangerous than one confined by police rules. Dex's perceived triumphs on last week's episode (including having great sex and a more care-free relationship with Lila) can only come back to haunt him big time over the next five episodes. Can't wait!


Exactly! It is not the same Dexter. Thank God for that. We need some change because if things always stayed the same, it would begin to get boring. I think the story line has more than delivered and I would not change a thing! Can not wait for Sunday(Go Cowboys)!
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post #660 of 6863 Old 11-15-2007, 04:49 AM
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Book 2 is actually a better story so far than the tv, and just for those who have not read the book, there's quite a few differences from the book they won't show. The book dexter for example tortures them before he kills them, and the descriptions of his relaxed, mellow mood after a good session are somewhat disturbing in a guilty pleasure kind of way (since they are bad people after all). The kills here are quick and clean.

But there are occasional flashes of brilliance in the TV.

The book dex also would not be involved with Lila in that manner, it's a character flaw but he finds that distasteful.
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