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post #6781 of 6863 Old 02-17-2014, 07:27 PM
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You guys suggesting alternate endings seem to forget that the writers were limited by the production decision to end the series in a way that would allow for more from Dex; it seems they're planning a sequel or at the very least wanted to leave that possibility open- and they've said they'd only do that if MJH returns. Kind of hard if he's dead; if incarcerated, I guess he could break out, but that would seem forced.

As for Sopranos finale, I was puzzled why DC would choose to end it so ambiguously, until I read a post in another forum that pointed me to an excellent analysis that shows there was no ambiguity- the screen going blank was Tony dying. This detailed examination shows how the shots alternate between 3rd person and Tony's POV, the last shot being POV, so the blackness=death. Great read, highly recommended, esp. for those frustrated w/ the ending. This analysis shows it was actually very well-crafted.

http://masterofsopranos.wordpress.com/the-sopranos-definitive-explanation-of-the-end/

As for Lost, I was disappointed in the finale, but it didn't ruin the series. But a great finale would have made Lost one of the best series ever imo.

BB's finale was awesome; 2nd best ever, w/ 6 Feet Under being the best.
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post #6782 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

You guys suggesting alternate endings seem to forget that the writers were limited by the production decision to end the series in a way that would allow for more from Dex; it seems they're planning a sequel or at the very least wanted to leave that possibility open- and they've said they'd only do that if MJH returns. Kind of hard if he's dead; if incarcerated, I guess he could break out, but that would seem forced.
True.
However, HBO insisted this would be the end of Dexter....no sequel was planned.
I'm sure the idea was to drum up interest/ratings in the final season.rolleyes.gif
But it still sucked, not putting closure to the series and character.

A lack of respect by HBO towards the Dexter Faithfull puts a sour taste in my mouth....

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post #6783 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 03:43 AM
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True.
However, HBO insisted this would be the end of Dexter....no sequel was planned.
I'm sure the idea was to drum up interest/ratings in the final season.rolleyes.gif
But it still sucked, not putting closure to the series and character.

A lack of respect by HBO towards the Dexter Faithfull puts a sour taste in my mouth....

Actually, I don't think HBO gave the matter any thought whatsoever. They have their own shows to worry about. wink.gif
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post #6784 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 05:01 AM
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And I'm sure SHO is glad your acrimony is directed at HBO.

But seriously, "no sequel was planned", even if true, doesn't mean they didn't direct them to leave it open for a possible sequel. And they kinda have to say that, b/c if they did say they were thinking about a sequel, that would kinda be a spoiler; we'd have known Dex would survive.
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post #6785 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 05:58 AM
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According to everything I read, no sequel or spinoff was planned. Dexter's story was done and everyone (except maybe some Showtime executives) seemed ready to move on.

As to the appropriateness of the ending, one other factor to consider is that Dexter was always portrayed as the ultimate survivor. Thus, it's only proper he survived the end of the show. And he was punished, severely, as I described in an earlier post, whether or not that satisfies some fans desire for lethal retribution for his sins. Hell, one might even call it "bloodlust".

In fact, it could be argued that Dexter's punishment is, for him, a fate worse than death. Death is certainly something he was very familiar with and didn't fear. But in spite of his lack of "human emotion", he did have a need for human interaction. He did love his sister, his son, Hanna, and his friends in the department. He'll never see any of them again. That, my friends, is punishment enough and an appropriate fate.
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post #6786 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 06:19 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

According to everything I read, no sequel or spinoff was planned. Dexter's story was done and everyone (except maybe some Showtime executives) seemed ready to move on.

As to the appropriateness of the ending, one other factor to consider is that Dexter was always portrayed as the ultimate survivor. Thus, it's only proper he survived the end of the show. And he was punished, severely, as I described in an earlier post, whether or not that satisfies some fans desire for lethal retribution for his sins. Hell, one might even call it "bloodlust".

In fact, it could be argued that Dexter's punishment is, for him, a fate worse than death. Death is certainly something he was very familiar with and didn't fear. But in spite of his lack of "human emotion", he did have a need for human interaction. He did love his sister, his son, Hanna, and his friends in the department. He'll never see any of them again. That, my friends, is punishment enough and an appropriate fate.

I'm in league with the others who say that Dexter should have ended with death or imprisonment. The show always flirted with both and, while a dramatic show, almost made Dexter's escapes comedy. Certainly they made Miami Metro a clown program. To basically drop and leave unresolved one of the biggest themes of the show (don't get caught) all the while Dexter does things outrageously easy to see (killing the guy in front of the camera and killing Deb and taking her body in broad daylight), it just makes it seem like that major theme doesn't matter. This show was almost the anti-procedural. How to not catch a bad guy.

Dexter's punishment is self-inflicted and can be undone at any time. He somehow survived a hurricane in a small boat. There is nothing satisfying in any way from this.

Jerry. Just remember. Its not a lie . . . if you believe it. GC
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post #6787 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Actually, I don't think HBO gave the matter any thought whatsoever. They have their own shows to worry about. wink.gif

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Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

And I'm sure SHO is glad your acrimony is directed at HBO.
DOH!!!redface.giftongue.gif

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But seriously, "no sequel was planned", even if true, doesn't mean they didn't direct them to leave it open for a possible sequel. And they kinda have to say that, b/c if they did say they were thinking about a sequel, that would kinda be a spoiler; we'd have known Dex would survive.
Exactly.

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some fans desire for lethal retribution for his sins. Hell, one might even call it "bloodlust".
BLOODLUST????eek.gif
Ah, hell no.

It's about fitting the appropriate fate TO the character.
Death or incarceration for Dexter is pure symmetry.

Technically, almost all of Dex's "victims" were murdered under the law.
It's irrational to think Dexter could get away with his form of The Avenging Angel indefinitely.
At some point, the walls would close in and crush him.

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In fact, it could be argued that Dexter's punishment is, for him, a fate worse than death. Death is certainly something he was very familiar with and didn't fear. But in spite of his lack of "human emotion", he did have a need for human interaction. He did love his sister, his son, Hanna, and his friends in the department. He'll never see any of them again. That, my friends, is punishment enough and an appropriate fate.
He didn't fear death or incarceration?
Then why did he run?

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post #6788 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 06:37 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

In fact, it could be argued that Dexter's punishment is, for him, a fate worse than death. Death is certainly something he was very familiar with and didn't fear. But in spite of his lack of "human emotion", he did have a need for human interaction. He did love his sister, his son, Hanna, and his friends in the department. He'll never see any of them again. That, my friends, is punishment enough and an appropriate fate.

Agree. When we 1st met Dex he was a self admitted monster. If the series had an overlying theme it was his attempt to become human. The standard Hollywood ending would have been achieving his goal in an act of self sacrifice resulting in his death. I always thought it would end with a final confrontation with Deb, with Dexter letting her win...

This ending was darker.The monster won and was now fully back in control.

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post #6789 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

According to everything I read, no sequel or spinoff was planned. Dexter's story was done and everyone (except maybe some Showtime executives) seemed ready to move on.

As to the appropriateness of the ending, one other factor to consider is that Dexter was always portrayed as the ultimate survivor. Thus, it's only proper he survived the end of the show. And he was punished, severely, as I described in an earlier post, whether or not that satisfies some fans desire for lethal retribution for his sins. Hell, one might even call it "bloodlust".

In fact, it could be argued that Dexter's punishment is, for him, a fate worse than death. Death is certainly something he was very familiar with and didn't fear. But in spite of his lack of "human emotion", he did have a need for human interaction. He did love his sister, his son, Hanna, and his friends in the department. He'll never see any of them again. That, my friends, is punishment enough and an appropriate fate.

Definitely agree that his fate was worse than death. One of the (many) reasons I'm against capital punishment.

As for the bloodlust and punishing Dex for his "sins," I'm of the opinion his acts weren't sins. Dex was wired for violence; his killing was not a choice- it was a need (thus the "Dark Passenger). That was one of the main attractions of this show for me: taking a innate psychological/biological flaw that will undoubtedly lead to murder and re-directing it to serve a useful purpose. And the can of worms that opened up. I never saw Dex as a "bad person," just a tragically flawed human who nevertheless does his best to lead a productive life, while still maintaining the survival instinct inherent in us all. Personally, I would have been happy if he spent the rest of his days w/ Hannah and Harrison in Argentina.

The point of emotions is a very salient point in this series and your statement I bolded points out the dichotomy: he didn't have emotions yet he loved? Is love not an emotion (the most important one even)? Yes, real love is more about actions than emotion, but the emotion comes first, I believe. But it seemed like Dex was developing emotions as the series was ending. I actually thought they were heading towards Dex becoming somewhat healed through the power of love- from Deb, from Hannah and, most importantly, what he felt for Harrison. Sort of a love conquers all ending. But then I tend towards being a sentimentalist; that sugary ending would have pissed off many (most?) of the show's fans and would've been a major departure in tone.
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post #6790 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 06:43 AM
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He didn't fear death or incarceration?
Then why did he run?

Where did I mention incarceration? Of course he would fear that, as he would a public trial and the humiliation & spectacle that would follow. That's why he ran. I would too.

But nobody was going to kill him unless it was the state. Again, he didn't fear death; he escaped its grasp many times. It's only appropriate that he escape it once again. He'll suffer enough, and he'll keep suffering for the rest of his life. Is that not a more severe punishment for Dexter, the worst he could imagine, worse than death? I maintain it is.

And once again, that the ending generates these types of discussions means it was successful on some level. 'Burn Notice' finally fizzled out and nobody cared. That's what happens to most shows. If Dexter had met a lethal end, my faction wouldn't have been satisfied and we'd be whining about it, just like you. wink.gif
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post #6791 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 06:47 AM
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It's about fitting the appropriate fate TO the character.
Death or incarceration for Dexter is pure symmetry.

Technically, almost all of Dex's "victims" were murdered under the law.
It's irrational to think Dexter could get away with his form of The Avenging Angel indefinitely.
At some point, the walls would close in and crush him.

The Avenging Angel has many parallels to the Dark Knight. The original Batman was a tortured creature who worked outside the law, not cooperating w/ it. He saw both his parents get killed, though he was a bit older. Of course he had no one to help him develop his code and he didn't kill the criminals he caught, but had Batman been caught by the law he would have been incarcerated. Didn't Batman get away with it indefinitely? Of course he wasn't quite as damaged as Dex and had millions of dollars.
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post #6792 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 06:55 AM
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Agree. When we 1st met Dex he was a self admitted monster. If the series had an overlying theme it was his attempt to become human. The standard Hollywood ending would have been achieving his goal in an act of self sacrifice resulting in his death. I always thought it would end with a final confrontation with Deb, with Dexter letting her win...

This ending was darker.The monster won and was now fully back in control.

I agree w/ your assessment of the overlying theme and it seemed to me that his attempt was successful. He did seem to be developing emotions and he did show love for his family and friends. And the ending was a type of self-sacrifice, though not resulting in his death (but a fate even worse).

But I don't see it as the monster won. Removing himself from everything he loved (and from society in general, as much as possible), was a very HUMAN act of admitting one's flaws and doing your best to minimize their negative consequences.
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post #6793 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 06:58 AM
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Where did I mention incarceration? Of course he would fear that, as he would a public trial and the humiliation & spectacle that would follow. That's why he ran. I would too.

But nobody was going to kill him unless it was the state. Again, he didn't fear death; he escaped its grasp many times. It's only appropriate that he escape it once again. He'll suffer enough, and he'll keep suffering for the rest of his life. Is that not a more severe punishment for Dexter, the worst he could imagine, worse than death? I maintain it is.

And once again, that the ending generates these types of discussions means it was successful on some level. 'Burn Notice' finally fizzled out and nobody cared. That's what happens to most shows. If Dexter had met a lethal end, my faction wouldn't have been satisfied and we'd be whining about it, just like you. wink.gif

+1

I also would have likely been disappointed had they killed him, though it would have depended on how/why he was killed.
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post #6794 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 07:01 AM
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Why was it important to end the show this way?
BUCK: It seemed like the ending that was most justified. In season 1, you saw this guy who was so compartmentalized. The last couple seasons have been about breaking down those walls by having his son and his relationship with Hannah and having Deb discover who he is. Still he was able to justify what he did. We felt it took the death of the one person he cared most about to really look at himself. [His fate] wasn’t something that happened to him but his decision. He had to bear the burden of deciding his own fate.

 

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/09/23/dexter-interview-series-finale/

 

I posted this link a while back and they answer most of the questions/objections.

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post #6795 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 08:37 AM
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I agree w/ your assessment of the overlying theme and it seemed to me that his attempt was successful. He did seem to be developing emotions and he did show love for his family and friends. And the ending was a type of self-sacrifice, though not resulting in his death (but a fate even worse).

But I don't see it as the monster won. Removing himself from everything he loved (and from society in general, as much as possible), was a very HUMAN act of admitting one's flaws and doing your best to minimize their negative consequences.

The monster won part was half in jest, to make my point more dramatic smile.gif Still, I found the lack of voice over in the final scene telling. That was always his way of expressing his human side, showing his own self awareness of his dual nature. The way I took the ending was he had lost all hope and surrendered to the dark passenger...or rather realized the dark passenger was, in reality, him...

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post #6796 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 08:52 AM
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I got what I needed out of Lost. It was a character driven show and the ending worked for me. Others (you?) were there for the mystery and science fiction.

I was there for the character drama, too. But when the writer's idea of "character drama" is one character asking another character a valid question that deserves an answer, and the response is a blank stare before walking away??? This type of interaction happened way too frequently.

It wasn't that the science/mystery questions were going unanswered by the show... ACTUAL characters on the show KNEW the answers and the writers willfully kept them from us.

With regards to Dexter, there were other ways of leaving Dexter open for a return if that's what SHO/the writers intended. We could have ended the same way, with Dex becoming a lumberjack, with the only difference being Miami Metro knew who he was and what he had done and were starting a manhunt to look for him, so he did what he thought was necessary and ran away. Instead we get this hurricane fake death. We needed to see Dexter come full circle and become the hunted. I'm not a writer by any means, but these ideas aren't hard to come up with.

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post #6797 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 09:09 AM
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With regards to Dexter, there were other ways of leaving Dexter open for a return if that's what SHO/the writers intended. We could have ended the same way, with Dex becoming a lumberjack, with the only difference being Miami Metro knew who he was and what he had done and were starting a manhunt to look for him, so he did what he thought was necessary and ran away. Instead we get this hurricane fake death. We needed to see Dexter come full circle and become the hunted. I'm not a writer by any means, but these ideas aren't hard to come up with.

Then it would have become an entirely different show. Dexter was often the hunted, but it was always by somebody he himself was hunting. They were matching wits, and the drama flowed from that battle. That was the show. That show ended.

What you are proposing isn't 'Dexter', which is probably why the writers "didn't come up with it".
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post #6798 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 09:11 AM
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Then it would have become an entirely different show. Dexter was often the hunted, but it was always by somebody he himself was hunting. They were matching wits, and the drama flowed from that battle. That was the show. That show ended.

What you are proposing isn't 'Dexter', which is probably why the writers "didn't come up with it".

Counterpoint: Doakes, except Doakes wins instead of Dexter. That's called Dramatic Irony.

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post #6799 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 09:28 AM
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But just imagine what Dex could do with a chainsaw .. wink.gif

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post #6800 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 09:30 AM
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Then it would have become an entirely different show. Dexter was often the hunted, but it was always by somebody he himself was hunting. They were matching wits, and the drama flowed from that battle.

I think that's the reason the Arthur Mitchell, "Trinity Killer", John Lithgow season remains one of my favorites .. if not my absolute favorite .. tongue.gif

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post #6801 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 11:13 AM
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Where did I mention incarceration?
You didn't, I did.
Reason being is Dex was trying to avoid detection from everyone at the Dept. throughout the entire series.
It was a major theme of the show.

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It's only appropriate that he escape it once again. He'll suffer enough, and he'll keep suffering for the rest of his life. Is that not a more severe punishment for Dexter, the worst he could imagine, worse than death? I maintain it is.
Sorry, but this is just one of those few times we will have to agree to disagree.wink.gif

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If Dexter had met a lethal end, my faction wouldn't have been satisfied and we'd be whining about it, just like you. wink.gif
More words of wisdom from Ms. Oink: Whining....it's what men do.tongue.gif

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Definitely agree that his fate was worse than death.
Then why do Death Row inmates fight, delay, and appeal their sentence with such vigor?

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One of the (many) reasons I'm against capital punishment.
FWIW, I am against the current format of capital punishment where it is done behind closed doors by the State.

Executions should be public and "in the city square," just like it was in days of old.
It is the best form of deterrent to dissuade potential murderers.

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As for the bloodlust and punishing Dex for his "sins," I'm of the opinion his acts weren't sins.
There is no arguing they WERE illegal, and there are consequences under the law for that.

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Dex was wired for violence; his killing was not a choice- it was a need (thus the "Dark Passenger). That was one of the main attractions of this show for me: taking a innate psychological/biological flaw that will undoubtedly lead to murder and re-directing it to serve a useful purpose. And the can of worms that opened up.
Wouldn't it have been a "useful purpose" to take what evidence he found and turning it over to the Dept. that would lead to arrest.

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I never saw Dex as a "bad person," just a tragically flawed human who nevertheless does his best to lead a productive life.
"Productive life" was the rationalization he convinced himself of, after his Pa and Doc stupidly drummed it into him.

Every fan of the series felt empathy for Dex, otherwise there isn't much reason to follow the show.

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post #6802 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

Instead we get this hurricane fake death.
Perhaps this is where the series should have ended: with Dex and Deb on the boat, heading into the eye of the Hurricane.
It would have left it to viewers to fill in the blank about his fate (somewhat similar to Tony Soprano).wink.gif

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Dexter was often the hunted, but it was always by somebody he himself was hunting.
You forget the Dept. was almost always hunting Dex, or at least the person responsible for the bodies that kept showing up on a regular basis.
The problem was they didn't realize it was one of their own generating 'em.

One of these days, we need to get a beer (or 8) and discuss Dexter.....maybe when I drop in to install that Stripper Pole for ya.tongue.gif

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Originally Posted by oink View Post


One of these days, we need to get a beer (or 8) and discuss Dexter.....maybe when I drop in to install that Stripper Pole for ya.tongue.gif

Mrs. Archi has bought the whole, terribly expensive series for her mom, one season at a time. smile.gif Not BD, however, so no rewatch potential. frown.gif

Don't forget to bring the personnel required to staff the pole! So to speak. tongue.gif
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post #6804 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

Mrs. Archi has bought the whole, terribly expensive series for her mom, one season at a time. smile.gif Not BD, however, so no rewatch potential. frown.gif

Don't forget to bring the personnel required to staff the pole! So to speak. tongue.gif
Tom is handling that (since he is more in your neighborhood).

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post #6805 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 12:43 PM
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post #6806 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 02:38 PM
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My interpretation was that Dexter did not run, but rather he chose to leave. He finally realized he was a poison to those he cared most about and he didn't want to be the cause of Harrison's or Hannah's death, like he was for Harry's, Rita's and Deb's. He left to protect them; I don't think he was scared for himself at all.
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post #6807 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post



The monster won part was half in jest, to make my point more dramatic smile.gif Still, I found the lack of voice over in the final scene telling. That was always his way of expressing his human side, showing his own self awareness of his dual nature. The way I took the ending was he had lost all hope and surrendered to the dark passenger...or rather realized the dark passenger was, in reality, him...

That's a good point about the lack of voice-over, though of course open to interpretation. Could be just for dramatic reasons they wanted to end in silence, but you could be right. I can see your interpretation that he surrendered to the DP and/or realized it was him, but I like to think we all have a chance at redemption- even the most damaged, most monsterly of us all, so that probably is part of why I see it as him sacrificing himself and doing his best to minimize the negative effects of his fatal flaw.
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post #6808 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 03:06 PM
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The Times ran a video piece after the Finale .. it's worth a watch ..

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post #6809 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

My interpretation was that Dexter did not run, but rather he chose to leave. He finally realized he was a poison to those he cared most about and he didn't want to be the cause of Harrison's or Hannah's death, like he was for Harry's, Rita's and Deb's. He left to protect them; I don't think he was scared for himself at all.
Certainly that is part of it.
It's also true The Heat was closing in on him too.

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That's a good point about the lack of voice-over, though of course open to interpretation. Could be just for dramatic reasons they wanted to end in silence.
FWIW, I think a voice-over could very well have set a particular path Dex would have to travel and that would have been problematic, if there was a possibility of a sequel or something later.
Especially, if the creative work hadn't been done yet for something new.
It's smarter not to shut any doors in Dexter's World.wink.gif

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post #6810 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

Then why do Death Row inmates fight, delay, and appeal their sentence with such vigor?

Survival instinct is innate in humans.

FWIW, I am against the current format of capital punishment where it is done behind closed doors by the State.

Executions should be public and "in the city square," just like it was in days of old.
It is the best form of deterrent to dissuade potential murderers.

This sounds like you're stating a fact. Do you have data or is this just opinion? BTW, just curious, are you from Texas perchance?

There is no arguing they WERE illegal, and there are consequences under the law for that.

Illegal and immoral are two totally different things. Do you think oral sex is immoral? It's still illegal here in VA, even if it's never prosecuted. There are consequences under the law, but only if you get caught. But all that is irrelevant to my belief that I expressed.

Wouldn't it have been a "useful purpose" to take what evidence he found and turning it over to the Dept. that would lead to arrest.

Once again, self-preservation is innate.

"Productive life" was the rationalization he convinced himself of, after his Pa and Doc stupidly drummed it into him.

Well, I'd say ridding the world of serial killers is a productive pursuit. Yes, It's illegal (the way he did it), but productive nonetheless. As for the Doc and Pa "stupidly" drumming the Code into him, would it have been smarter to let his Dark Passenger grow unfettered by the Code and just wait until he starts killing people and hope you catch him sooner rather than later?

Every fan of the series felt empathy for Dex, otherwise there isn't much reason to follow the show.
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