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post #6811 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

FWIW, I think a voice-over could very well have set a particular path Dex would have to travel and that would have been problematic, if there was a possibility of a sequel or something later.
Especially, if the creative work hadn't been done yet for something new.
It's smarter not to shut any doors in Dexter's World.wink.gif

Agree with this. Though of course it would depend on what the voice-over said. But there would certainly be a lot of limits on the voice-over.
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post #6812 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 04:54 PM
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Then why do Death Row inmates fight, delay, and appeal their sentence with such vigor?

Survival instinct is innate in humans.

Yup.

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FWIW, I am against the current format of capital punishment where it is done behind closed doors by the State.

Executions should be public and "in the city square," just like it was in days of old.
It is the best form of deterrent to dissuade potential murderers.

This sounds like you're stating a fact. Do you have data or is this just opinion?
Data?
Oh boy, do I!smile.gif

Here is a graphic detailing executions around the world by Amnesty International:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world#zoomed-picture
Look closely at which countries execute the most per 100,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_execution
According to Amnesty International, in 2012 "public executions were known to have been carried out in Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Somalia."

OK, now here is the world-wide murder rate per 100,000:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate#By_country
Notice those countries with the highest executions have the lowest murder rates?
Especially those known to have been carried out them out in public: Iran, North Korea (an anamoly for some reason), Saudi Arabia and Somalia?
That isn't sheer coincidence...that's a pattern.
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BTW, just curious, are you from Texas perchance?
No disrepect, but the old-timers around here would laugh at the thought of my "politics" being akin to the Lone Star State and its dominant public policies and personalities.
FWIW, the reigning Texas political POV sickens me like none other.
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There is no arguing they WERE illegal, and there are consequences under the law for that.

Illegal and immoral are two totally different things. Do you think oral sex is immoral? It's still illegal here in VA, even if it's never prosecuted.
I never mentioned morality.
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There are consequences under the law, but only if you get caught.
Not always.
Some, like Dex running, bore consequences on Hannah and the innocent Harrison.
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Wouldn't it have been a "useful purpose" to take what evidence he found and turning it over to the Dept. that would lead to arrest.

Once again, self-preservation is innate.
You're making my point; everyone wants to play, no one wants pay.
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"Productive life" was the rationalization he convinced himself of, after his Pa and Doc stupidly drummed it into him.

Yes, It's illegal (the way he did it), but productive nonetheless. Well, I'd say ridding the world of serial killers is a productive pursuit.
Agreed....in public, with extreme prejudice.wink.gif
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As for the Doc and Pa "stupidly" drumming the Code into him, would it have been smarter to let his Dark Passenger grow unfettered by the Code and just wait until he starts killing people and hope you catch him sooner rather than later?
How can we be sure about that?
Is it possible Dex a little too neatly fit Harry and Doc's definition of a "serial killer?"
Is it possible it could have been handled better?
Without a doubt their "solution" was extremely unorthodox (and illegal, of course).

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post #6813 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

Yup.
Data?
Oh boy, do I!smile.gif

Here is a graphic detailing executions around the world by Amnesty International:
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/mar/29/death-penalty-countries-world#zoomed-picture
Look closely at which countries execute the most per 100,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_execution
According to Amnesty International, in 2012 "public executions were known to have been carried out in Iran, North Korea, Saudi Arabia and Somalia."

OK, now here is the world-wide murder rate per 100,000:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_rate#By_country
Notice those countries with the highest executions have the lowest murder rates?
Especially those known to have been carried out them out in public: Iran, North Korea (an anamoly for some reason), Saudi Arabia and Somalia?
That isn't sheer coincidence...that's a pattern.

I looked at the 1st link and couldn't find executions/per 100k, just total # of executions. But it's irrelevant anyway. Even if I stipulate the pattern you profess, what you have is a correlation. One of the 1st things I learned in statistics class is that correlation does not equal causality. There are way too many other variables. I'll admit that if that pattern you maintain is in fact accurate (which given the lack of data on the link and also absent some statistical analysis is not a given), it would support your theory, but still is a long way from proving it.

No disrepect, but the old-timers around here would laugh at the thought of my "politics" being akin to the Lone Star State and its dominant public policies and personalities.
FWIW, the reigning Texas political POV sickens me like none other.

No disrespect meant on my part and none taken, but you have to admit this execution theory of yours would be right at home in Texas.

I never mentioned morality.

No- I did. You responded to my assertion that I didn't think Dex was a sinner (morality) w/ the fact that it was illegal. I assumed you were equating legality and morality. My mistake. Now I understand that you just made an irrelevant response to my comment.


Not always.
Some, like Dex running, bore consequences on Hannah and the innocent Harrison.

OK, so you're changing your tune then? Hard to debate if you keep switching things around.Your post that I was responding to stated there are legal consequences.

You're making my point; everyone wants to play, no one wants pay.

No, that was not your point. Your point was that he could have turned himself in and that would have been a useful purpose. Which is true, just not a reasonable expectation, which is what I was trying to point out, but somehow you spun this to be proving your point- never mentioned in your post- that everyone wants to play, no one pay.


Agreed....in public, with extreme prejudice.wink.gif

Rather non-responsive here, but at least you agree that Dex did serve a useful purpose.

How can we be sure about that?
Is it possible Dex a little too neatly fit Harry and Doc's definition of a "serial killer?"
Is it possible it could have been handled better?
Without a doubt their "solution" was extremely unorthodox (and illegal, of course).

Sure about what? That he would become a serial killer? Nothing is 100% sure, but there are some very telling behaviors in young children that when present, make it very likely that they will grow up to be at the least violent people and at worst serial killers. So let me rephrase the question: would you have preferred that Dex's Dad just do nothing and wait and see what Dex did and given the huge probability that he'd hurt someone, hope that he can defy the odds or, if not, hope you catch him before he hurts more people? What do you think would have been a better alternative to Dex's Dad's stupid (your word) plan? In the universe of this series, even if Dex had grown up to never hurt anyone, how many more people would have died had Dex not knocked off those other monsters?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not for vigilantism. Joe Citizen has proven himself incapable of meting out justice. (not that the justice system as it is now does a great job, but it's better than vigilantes) But part of Dex's code was that he had to be CERTAIN his victim was a murderer before he could act, something vigilantes never bother with. Again, I'm only talking about Dex in the artificial world the series created and I only said that I didn't think Dex's actions were sinful. I think the series is more about pointing out the short-comings of our legal system than it is a justification for someone like Dex. But again, what do you do w/ children that show all the earmarks of becoming a serial killer? Dex's Dad and the Doc tried something new. Was it wholly successful? Certainly not. But was society better off in the long run b/c of their experiment? In Dex's case, I'd say yes. Does that mean that's how we should handle all children who display the signs of becoming a serial killer? No way. But doing nothing isn't helpful. Therapy has not been shown to be effective. At least they tried something, even if it was illegal.

But all this has strayed from my original assertion, which was that Dex was not a monster, not a sinner. He was a sick pup. But his disease was turned to a public benefit by the Code. Unfortunately, the Code couldn't save Dex himself, though he suffered less from his disease than he would have w/o the Code.
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post #6814 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

Certainly that is part of it.
It's also true The Heat was closing in on him too.
Maybe in prior seasons, but when was the heat closing in on Dexter in the final season? He planned on leaving with Hannah willingly. The heat was closing in on Hannah, but not so much Dexter. I still remain confident that Dex wasn't scared for himself, but rather Hannah and Harrison. This is why he decided not to meet up with them; had nothing to do with the "heat" being onto him and everything to do with protecting them from himself and the bad things that happened to those he truly cared about.

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post #6815 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Maybe in prior seasons, but when was the heat closing in on Dexter in the final season? He planned on leaving with Hannah willingly. The heat was closing in on Hannah, but not so much Dexter. I still remain confident that Dex wasn't scared for himself, but rather Hannah and Harrison. This is why he decided not to meet up with them; had nothing to do with the "heat" being onto him and everything to do with protecting them from himself and the bad things that happened to those he truly cared about.

Totally agree- nicely put.
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post #6816 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Maybe in prior seasons, but when was the heat closing in on Dexter in the final season? He planned on leaving with Hannah willingly. The heat was closing in on Hannah, but not so much Dexter.
Technically, that's true.
However, Dex took it as an attack on him as well.
In his recklessness, he came very very close to unmasking himself.

Would there have been a limit to what he would do to save or free Hannah had she been caught?
I don't think so.wink.gif

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post #6817 of 6863 Old 02-18-2014, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

Would you please put post# 6813 in the proper AVS format?
It's a pain in the a$$ for me reformat it to respond point by point.

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post #6818 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

In his recklessness, he came very very close to unmasking himself.

You could say that about Dexter concerning every single season.
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Would there have been a limit to what he would do to save or free Hannah had she been caught?
I don't think so.wink.gif

The answer to your question has no definitive answer, and it doesn't have anything to do with what we were discussing. To each their own though. cool.gif

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post #6819 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 05:21 AM
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If Hanna had been caught there's not much Dexter could do. Breaking people out of prison wasn't really his forté.
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post #6820 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

Would you please put post# 6813 in the proper AVS format?
It's a pain in the a$$ for me reformat it to respond point by point.

But it's so easy for me to go back and re-format? Pass.
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post #6821 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

You could say that about Dexter concerning every single season.
True.

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The answer to your question has no definitive answer.
That's why I asked it as a hypothetical.

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]it doesn't have anything to do with what we were discussing.
You get this after reading my post in its entirety?
Hmmmmm.....

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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

If Hanna had been caught there's not much Dexter could do. Breaking people out of prison wasn't really his forté.
I wasn't thinking of prison-breaking.
I was thinking more of evidence being altered or going missing (something that happened more the once over the years).

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But it's so easy for me to go back and re-format? Pass.
Can't say I blame you if you "Pass."
My record in debates at AVS is fairly good.

However, it is nice to see your beliefs are firmly held, but not worth defending.rolleyes.gif

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post #6822 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by JimWinVA View Post

But it's so easy for me to go back and re-format? Pass.

I'm not going to ask you to reformat your previous posts, but I'd certainly appreciate future posts being quoted properly. It makes it hard for me to understand what you are saying and what you are quoting.

I literally ignored both of those recent posts, because they were too confusing as to who was saying what.

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post #6823 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

I'm not going to ask you to reformat your previous posts, but I'd certainly appreciate future posts being quoted properly. It makes it hard for me to understand what you are saying and what you are quoting.

I literally ignored both of those recent posts, because they were too confusing as to who was saying what.
A conspiracy theorist might say it was by design, but I wouldn't.wink.gif

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post #6824 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 11:25 AM
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well, at least we have a lively discussion going...smile.gif

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Oh you guys talking about formatting biggrin.gif
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post #6826 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 01:51 PM
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Can't say I blame you if you "Pass."
My record in debates at AVS is fairly good.

However, it is nice to see your beliefs are firmly held, but not worth defending.rolleyes.gif

LMAO. You refuse to respond to my post- and accuse me of not defending my beliefs. Priceless. I have no doubt your record in debates is good- IN YOUR MIND. You seem to have a way of spinning things your way. I doubt if we would have got anywhere in our debate, given your propensity for twisting the facts.
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post #6827 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

I'm not going to ask you to reformat your previous posts, but I'd certainly appreciate future posts being quoted properly. It makes it hard for me to understand what you are saying and what you are quoting.

I literally ignored both of those recent posts, because they were too confusing as to who was saying what.

It's really that hard to tell the difference between the post quoted and my replies which are in bold? I never realized that was so confusing, but I will quote the way most do, though I missed the thread where the proper way to format quotes is spelled out. Could you (or someone) point me to it? Thanks.
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post #6828 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 01:58 PM
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LMAO. You refuse to respond to my post- and accuse me of not defending my beliefs. Priceless. I have no doubt your record in debates is good- IN YOUR MIND. You seem to have a way of spinning things your way. I doubt if we would have got anywhere in our debate, given your propensity for twisting the facts.
The ball is in your court, Jim.wink.gif

For some reason, I have to repeat myself....again:
FORMAT YOUR POST AS AVS MEMBERS TRADITIONAL HAVE ALWAYS DONE WHEN QUOTING FELLOW MEMBERS AND I WILL RESPOND TO YOUR POST POINT BY POINT.
Otherwise, I have to conclude you're not serious in continuing this discussion.

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post #6829 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 01:59 PM
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A conspiracy theorist might say it was by design, but I wouldn't.wink.gif

No- you just imply it, w/ your lil winkie face. LOL. You do love to twist the truth, don't you?
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post #6830 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 02:02 PM
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No- you just imply it, w/ your lil winkie face. LOL. You do love to twist the truth, don't you?
Dude, the "winkie face" means it's a joke.rolleyes.gif

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post #6831 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 02:18 PM
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The ball is in your court, Jim.wink.gif

For some reason, I have to repeat myself....again:
FORMAT YOUR POST AS AVS MEMBERS TRADITIONAL HAVE ALWAYS DONE WHEN QUOTING FELLOW MEMBERS AND I WILL RESPOND TO YOUR POST POINT BY POINT.
Otherwise, I have to conclude you're not serious in continuing this discussion.

Who made you the boss of this thread- or anything- that you feel you can tell me what to do? You can conclude whatever you want (as you are wont to do), but bottom line, I made my points and it was you who refused to respond- I'm only refusing to follow your instructions. Forgive me for not following tradition, but if I was unwilling to do the extra work before, I'm even more unwilling now that I see how your mind works. There were some clues previously, but your spinning of this makes it all too clear.

I have no doubt in your head this means a victory in this debate- Congratulations!

Personally, I don't debate to try and win; I just enjoy the exchange of ideas, seeing how other people think and having my own ideas challenged and having to defend them (and alter them if I can't). But if you have such a need to win- it's all yours.
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post #6832 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 02:18 PM
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It's really that hard to tell the difference between the post quoted and my replies which are in bold? I never realized that was so confusing, but I will quote the way most do, though I missed the thread where the proper way to format quotes is spelled out. Could you (or someone) point me to it? Thanks.

Yes, it is difficult because you're not following an accepted convention of quoting users. It's not "written" anywhere because it is the same convention that all webforums use, most commenting systems, slashcode, reddit, and any number of other websites where users come together to discuss. The intent is to clearly identify the user who is being quoted, and clearly identify the user who is speaking. Otherwise, it looks like a single user alternating between bold and regular text. That can get confusing, as bold is typically used for emphasis and not for alternating between speakers.

Sorry I can't point you to an official AVS link that shows quote formatting, but I did a google and found this website that talks about bulletin board etiquette.

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post #6833 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 02:21 PM
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Dude, the "winkie face" means it's a joke.rolleyes.gif

So- you're saying you were implying nothing? Jokes usually have an element of truth in them. I call BS- I don't believe for a minute you weren't trying to imply something. I could be wrong, but given your penchant for playing fast and loose w/ the truth, I have good reason to disbelieve you.
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post #6834 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

Yes, it is difficult because you're not following an accepted convention of quoting users. It's not "written" anywhere because it is the same convention that all webforums use, most commenting systems, slashcode, reddit, and any number of other websites where users come together to discuss. The intent is to clearly identify the user who is being quoted, and clearly identify the user who is speaking. Otherwise, it looks like a single user alternating between bold and regular text. That can get confusing, as bold is typically used for emphasis and not for alternating between speakers.

Sorry I can't point you to an official AVS link that shows quote formatting, but I did a google and found this website that talks about bulletin board etiquette.

Well, I do most of my posting/reading at SHTV forums and I've seen an abundance of quotes done the way I did it, so I assumed it was a matter of choice. I will post in the commonly accepted manner (better wording imo than "proper") from here on out. But I still fail to see how it is so difficult to comprehend while reading that the regular text is what is quoted, while the reply is in bold. As I said, it is not uncommon (though certainly not the norm) to see things quoted that way. I never had any difficulty parsing those posts.
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post #6835 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 02:38 PM
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post #6836 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 06:12 PM
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You get this after reading my post in its entirety?

Yup.

I don't doubt he would do what he could to save/rescue Hannah, but we were talking about why he left them behind, not what lengths he'd go to rescue them. All I am saying is a fear of getting caught was not why Dexter left, and while I didn't care much for the last season, the final scene was a pretty fitting end for Dexter Morgan.

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post #6837 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 07:34 PM
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Yup.

I don't doubt he would do what he could to save/rescue Hannah, but we were talking about why he left them behind, not what lengths he'd go to rescue them. All I am saying is a fear of getting caught was not why Dexter left, and while I didn't care much for the last season, the final scene was a pretty fitting end for Dexter Morgan.

Agreed, to both points. I thought the series end was excellent. Its how they got there I had problems with. smile.gif

I'm also sure that in the mental state he was in after Deb's death his own safety was the last thing on his mind. He wanted to protect Hannah and Harrison...from being caught, but even more, from himself.
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post #6838 of 6863 Old 02-19-2014, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Yup.

I don't doubt he would do what he could to save/rescue Hannah, but we were talking about why he left them behind, not what lengths he'd go to rescue them. All I am saying is a fear of getting caught was not why Dexter left, and while I didn't care much for the last season, the final scene was a pretty fitting end for Dexter Morgan.

It is frustrating when people have difficulty understanding and/or sticking to lines of reasoning.

I also thought the last scene- the whole finale, was fitting. A great finale- no, but I didn't find it nearly as bad as a lot of people seem to have. But Dex's fate and why he chose what he did were very apropos, imo.
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Originally Posted by lonwolf615 View Post

I thought the series end was excellent. Its how they got there I had problems with. I'm also sure that in the mental state he was in after Deb's death his own safety was the last thing on his mind. He wanted to protect Hannah and Harrison...from being caught, but even more, from himself.

+1
Dex's self-sacrificing decision to protect those he loved was very redeeming. I vastly prefer this to having him killed or incarcerated. But I also didn't think the last season was as bad as most seem to. Nothing after season 4 was as good as those 1st 4, but I didn't experience a big drop in quality among any of those last seasons. I esp. enjoyed the storyline w/ the Dr.- Dex getting to finally experience a Mother Figure.
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post #6839 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 09:26 AM
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It is frustrating when people have difficulty understanding and/or sticking to lines of reasoning.

I also thought the last scene- the whole finale, was fitting. A great finale- no, but I didn't find it nearly as bad as a lot of people seem to have. But Dex's fate and why he chose what he did were very apropos, imo.
+1
Dex's self-sacrificing decision to protect those he loved was very redeeming. I vastly prefer this to having him killed or incarcerated. But I also didn't think the last season was as bad as most seem to. Nothing after season 4 was as good as those 1st 4, but I didn't experience a big drop in quality among any of those last seasons. I esp. enjoyed the storyline w/ the Dr.- Dex getting to finally experience a Mother Figure.

I find the idea of the ending as redemption for Dex interesting. I didn't get that at all. To me, it was more Dexter had exiled himself to his own private hell (an internal, not external, one). He thinks that's all he deserves. And he's probably right.

A gutsy ending, if you think about it.

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post #6840 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 09:27 AM
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A gutsy ending, if you think about it.

I've thought about it, and agree. wink.gif
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