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post #6841 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 11:42 AM
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I find the idea of the ending as redemption for Dex interesting. I didn't get that at all. To me, it was more Dexter had exiled himself to his own private hell (an internal, not external, one). He thinks that's all he deserves. And he's probably right.

A gutsy ending, if you think about it.

That was my exact take on it as well - his own personal hell. Gutsy indeed. And the lack of a voice-over during the last scene where he stared in pain into the camera...very well done. Powerful even...


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post #6842 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 11:53 AM
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He thinks that's all he deserves. And he's probably right.

He may think that's all he deserves, but as a viewer we have the luxury of knowing that he deserves greater punishment for his actions. Like Catcher in the Rye, Dexter is an unreliable narrator. We're capable of seeing beyond the information he gives us and realize there are pieces to the puzzle that he either doesn't see or doesn't understand.

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post #6843 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

He may think that's all he deserves, but as a viewer we have the luxury of knowing that he deserves greater punishment for his actions. Like Catcher in the Rye, Dexter is an unreliable narrator. We're capable of seeing beyond the information he gives us and realize there are pieces to the puzzle that he either doesn't see or doesn't understand.
Well said....couldn't agree more.wink.gif

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post #6844 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 02:59 PM
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I find the idea of the ending as redemption for Dex interesting. I didn't get that at all. To me, it was more Dexter had exiled himself to his own private hell (an internal, not external, one). He thinks that's all he deserves. And he's probably right.

A gutsy ending, if you think about it.

Yes, gutsy in many ways. The fact that they had no voice-over, just that look Dex had at the end, really leaves it open to interpretation. We know Dex's fate, but the why's and what it means are left to us to determine.

And I don't see any problem w/ saying that Dex exiled himself to his own private hell and it was a type of redemption for him. Whether he thinks he deserves it or not is certainly open for interpretation, though I would think that any real psychopathic serial killer would never think that. But I definitely don't feel he deserved it.
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post #6845 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

He may think that's all he deserves, but as a viewer we have the luxury of knowing that he deserves greater punishment for his actions. Like Catcher in the Rye, Dexter is an unreliable narrator. We're capable of seeing beyond the information he gives us and realize there are pieces to the puzzle that he either doesn't see or doesn't understand.

As a viewer, I reserve the right to determine for myself what I think he deserves. Your opinion may be the majority one, but it's still just opinion. I choose to see Dex as someone born w/ an incurable disease who, w/ the help of the Doc and his Dad, did his best to minimize the negative effects of that disease and make some positives out of it. The fact that once he realized he could never keep his disease from sooner or later harming those he loved and made a selfless choice to isolate himself from them (and society in general) shows great character that many of us more healthy humans would have a hard time making.
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post #6846 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 03:13 PM
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As a viewer, I reserve the right to determine for myself what I think he deserves. Your opinion may be the majority one, but it's still just opinion. I choose to see Dex as someone born w/ an incurable disease who, w/ the help of the Doc and his Dad, did his best to minimize the negative effects of that disease and make some positives out of it. The fact that once he realized he could never keep his disease from sooner or later harming those he loved and made a selfless choice to isolate himself from them (and society in general) shows great character that many of us more healthy humans would have a hard time making.

There's an inherent contradiction in your opinion, though.

IF Dexter was "born this way", then he is a true psychopath and is incapable of rationalizing how his actions harm others. Therefore, he cannot make a selfless choice to isolate himself from them, because he does not care about them.

IF Dexter is as the final season tried to portray him, not a psychopath but as someone who was cruelly raised to believe that he was and that killing was a release for him, then he was not born with an "incurable disease" and was in fact lied to the entire series. The show tried to take us down that path, but ultimately chickened out and said Dexter was some kind of mutant psychopath who both cares about his loved ones and has an in-born desire to kill. They really removed the tragic aspect of Dexter's story.

Basically, the way Dexter ended is not the way Shakespeare would have ended a tragedy. Dexter needed to die to atone for his sins, because he made others die to atone for theirs.

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post #6847 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 03:21 PM
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The fact that once he realized he could never keep his disease from sooner or later harming those he loved and made a selfless choice to isolate himself from them (and society in general) shows great character that many of us more healthy humans would have a hard time making.

 

I would beg to differ with this point of view. For me there was no great character. That would have been years ago (decades) when he knew that his life would have and had had a chilling affect on those around him... his ex-wife is a shining example.

 

It was only when he began to care for those around him did he decide to remove himself... which is an act of selfishness to a large degree. It's not what effect it had on others rather what effect it had on him. 

 

From the article I posted a while back...

 

SARA COLLETON: From the very beginning the paradox was here’s a guy who doesn’t feel he’s a human being, who has to fake it. But in faking it, he’s a better brother, boyfriend, colleague that most real people. People think of him as a monster, but he yearns to be human. We’ve seen him go forward on this journey every year. Now we found out what the final price was. What sums up the entire journey was the scene on balcony of his apartment before going on the boat to put Deb down — that’s horrible to say aloud. The voiceover: “For so long all I wanted was to feel like other people … now that I do just want it to stop.” It’s the horrible awareness of what it was to be a human being and how overwhelming that is for him. His punishment is banishment. He sends himself into exile. Killing himself is too easy. When he turns and looks into the camera at the end he’s stripped everything away.

 

In a way that’s his new code — avoiding human contact.
BUCK: Yes. For us, that’s the tragedy. The one thing we felt Dexter wanted more than anything was human connections. Even in the first season we see him trying to get with Rudy. Now that he’s finally made that journey and he’s almost poised to have a real human life, he has to give all that up to save Harrison and Hannah.
COLLETON: He went into an absolute shutdown. He no longer has even his voiceover.


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post #6848 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tighr View Post

There's an inherent contradiction in your opinion, though.

IF Dexter was "born this way", then he is a true psychopath and is incapable of rationalizing how his actions harm others. Therefore, he cannot make a selfless choice to isolate himself from them, because he does not care about them.

IF Dexter is as the final season tried to portray him, not a psychopath but as someone who was cruelly raised to believe that he was and that killing was a release for him, then he was not born with an "incurable disease" and was in fact lied to the entire series. The show tried to take us down that path, but ultimately chickened out and said Dexter was some kind of mutant psychopath who both cares about his loved ones and has an in-born desire to kill. They really removed the tragic aspect of Dexter's story.

Basically, the way Dexter ended is not the way Shakespeare would have ended a tragedy. Dexter needed to die to atone for his sins, because he made others die to atone for theirs.

This is very problematic in the series. I actually saw it as Dex overcoming some of the consequences of his disease and attaining emotions- though on a very basic level. I never thought of the scenario you point out- though that seems like a valid perspective- and as you point out, could have made for an exciting, totally original vein to mine until the ending, had they pursued it. But hopefully that was not what they were trying to portray, b/c then your assertion that they chickened out would be spot-on and the deepest cut of all.

I understand your issue w/ the contradiction inherent in my perspective, but the way I see it, that contradiction was inherent in the series. Given: he is a true psychopath and is incapable of rationalizing how his actions harm others, then there's no way that ending happens at all.

I chose to see it thusly: b/c the code gave Dex a way to turn his disease from something totally destructive into something that, while still destructive, had a beneficial outcome, this unusual path for a psychopath actually tapped into different neural pathways, since Dex got to feel like the good guy. In turn, this gave him a degree of healing that has never been seen before and allowed him to develop rudimentary emotions. It wasn't enough to save him, but it was enough for him to recognize the danger he was to those he loved. Would this happen in real life? Doubtful, but this is a TV show. And I tend to be a sentimentalist, so this felt satisfying.

Your last point is irrefutable. But there's no law that says they had to follow WS's tradition. Indeed, as ground-breaking as this series was, I'd maintain that their better off not following any tradition. But your post had me thinking about things I felt but had rationalized away to some degree- now I'm questioning the ending. Though I think the problem was generated earlier in the season; Dex had emotions before the finale, imo. Actually, even before the final seasons, he displayed love for Deb- and Hannah- so he had emotions for a while, didn't he?
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post #6849 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 06:15 PM
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I would beg to differ with this point of view. For me there was no great character. That would have been years ago (decades) when he knew that his life would have and had had a chilling affect on those around him... his ex-wife is a shining example.

It was only when he began to care for those around him did he decide to remove himself... which is an act of selfishness to a large degree. It's not what effect it had on others rather what effect it had on him. 

From the article I posted a while back...

SARA COLLETON
: From the very beginning the paradox was here’s a guy who doesn’t feel he’s a human being, who has to fake it. But in faking it, he’s a better brother, boyfriend, colleague that most real people. People think of him as a monster, but he yearns to be human. We’ve seen him go forward on this journey every year. Now we found out what the final price was. What sums up the entire journey was the scene on balcony of his apartment before going on the boat to put Deb down — that’s horrible to say aloud. The voiceover: “For so long all I wanted was to feel like other people … now that I do just want it to stop.” It’s the horrible awareness of what it was to be a human being and how overwhelming that is for him. His punishment is banishment. He sends himself into exile. Killing himself is too easy. When he turns and looks into the camera at the end he’s stripped everything away.


In a way that’s his new code — avoiding human contact.

BUCK
: Yes. For us, that’s the tragedy. The one thing we felt Dexter wanted more than anything was human connections. Even in the first season we see him trying to get with Rudy. Now that he’s finally made that journey and he’s almost poised to have a real human life, he has to give all that up to save Harrison and Hannah.
COLLETON
: He went into an absolute shutdown. He no longer has even his voiceover.

What happened to his wife was "just another brick in the wall," i.e. he had to go through a number of bad things happening to those he cared about in order to learn. It was the cumulative effect of all these, w/ Deb, being the most painful lesson, finally bringing that point home.

"It was only when he began to care for those around him did he decide to remove himself... which is an act of selfishness to a large degree. It's not what effect it had on others rather what effect it had on him." So you're saying that he removed himself b/c he didn't want to suffer the pain of seeing those he cared for hurt/die, not that it mattered that much to him to if they got hurt/died? But that contradicts the article you quoted, which says explicitly he gave it all up to save Hannah and Harrison.

It still seems to me, if you can accept the fact that a psychopath can develop emotions- he loves Hannah and Harrison- that his choice was selfless. If he realized that being a human being would just lead to more pain, rather than remove himself from those he loved, he could have rejected being human- just give over completely to the Dark Passenger, don't care about anyone, just follow your basic nature. He could have gotten whatever pleasure came from having H & H still in his life and just steeled himself against the loss that was likely to come when they came to harm. Wouldn't that have been a choice he could have made, w/ few negative consequences to himself- whereas the choice he made had terrible consequences for himself?
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post #6850 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 06:47 PM
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So you're saying that he removed himself b/c he didn't want to suffer the pain of seeing those he cared for hurt/die, not that it mattered that much to him to if they got hurt/died? But that contradicts the article you quoted, which says explicitly he gave it all up to save Hannah and Harrison.

 

Sorry, I'll leave my comments with this. His pain is the result of him causing their pain. It's not a contradiction. Him saving them prevents his suffering. My take is once he became aware of his "human side" he could no longer do what the other side did... with the major factor being (certainly not the only) he couldn't stand the suffering it caused him... 

 

The voiceover: “For so long all I wanted was to feel like other people … now that I do just want it to stop.”

 

He wanted it to stop... more than anything else. So leaving (which would make it stop or at least lessen it) was the overriding reason. I'm sure I'm not explaining it very well and I'll leave it with this... He ran from his future internal suffering more the good that may result from it.


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post #6851 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 09:21 PM
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The voiceover: “For so long all I wanted was to feel like other people … now that I do just want it to stop.”

He wanted it to stop... more than anything else. So leaving (which would make it stop or at least lessen it) was the overriding reason. I'm sure I'm not explaining it very well and I'll leave it with this... He ran from his future internal suffering more the good that may result from it.

You stated it very well, and I share similar thoughts. I don't think I was clear enough about what I meant by gutsy. I don't think Dexter is a tragic hero. I don't think he was interested in redemption, at least not after Deb's death. And I don't think he was done with killing. He might stop for awhile, but eventually he will return to what he knows best. Probably without the code, though. He's no longer interested in being human.

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post #6852 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 09:56 PM
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I don't think Dexter is a tragic hero. I don't think he was interested in redemption, at least not after Deb's death. And I don't think he was done with killing. He might stop for awhile, but eventually he will return to what he knows best. Probably without the code, though. He's no longer interested in being human.
I find it interesting that it seems like everyone has drawn a different interpretation of what Dexter's fate is or will be.
I don't want to say maybe the showrunners go it right, because I don't think that's the case.
Still, it's interesting to see everyone all over the map with it....

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post #6853 of 6863 Old 02-20-2014, 10:10 PM
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Sorry, I'll leave my comments with this. His pain is the result of him causing their pain. It's not a contradiction. Him saving them prevents his suffering. My take is once he became aware of his "human side" he could no longer do what the other side did... with the major factor being (certainly not the only) he couldn't stand the suffering it caused him... 

The voiceover: “For so long all I wanted was to feel like other people … now that I do just want it to stop.”

He wanted it to stop... more than anything else. So leaving (which would make it stop or at least lessen it) was the overriding reason. I'm sure I'm not explaining it very well and I'll leave it with this... He ran from his future internal suffering more the good that may result from it.

Not sure why you're sorry or why you're leaving your comments at that. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm trying to understand your perspective, while at the same time examining mine. I certainly haven't made up my mind about the finale, the ending or even the last season. That's why I like discussing these things- not b/c "my deductions need applause" (to borrow a phrase from Gabriel)- but b/c they can help clarify my vision.

And I agree you explained it fine. I understand what you're saying. I don't see it that way, but what you're saying makes sense and helps me re-evaluate.
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post #6854 of 6863 Old 02-21-2014, 10:52 AM
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Not sure why you're sorry or why you're leaving your comments at that. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm trying to understand your perspective, while at the same time examining mine.


I understand. For me their interview spells out rather clearly their intent and the basis behind it. Of course there is some wiggle room but that's undefined and open to anyone's interpretation. As it is undefined and can't be solved it's somewhat pointless analyzing. Any conclusions are based on conjecture and I have already stated mine... :) 


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post #6855 of 6863 Old 02-21-2014, 11:20 AM
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Well, I do most of my posting/reading at SHTV forums and I've seen an abundance of quotes done the way I did it, so I assumed it was a matter of choice. I will post in the commonly accepted manner (better wording imo than "proper") from here on out. But I still fail to see how it is so difficult to comprehend while reading that the regular text is what is quoted, while the reply is in bold. As I said, it is not uncommon (though certainly not the norm) to see things quoted that way. I never had any difficulty parsing those posts.

Thanks, that's much appreciated, by me anyway. Old habits die hard around here. smile.gif
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From the "Hot Off The Press" Thread (top of 'HDTV Programming' page). smile.gif

TV Notes
Michael C. Hall Knows Everyone Hated The 'Dexter' Finale
By Lauren Duca, HuffingtonPost.com - May 25, 2014

Michael C. Hall is well aware that you thought the "Dexter" finale was the worst. He didn't like it either, and actually isn't even sure if he watched.

“Liked it? I don’t think I even watched it,” he told the Daily Beast. “I thought it was narratively satisfying—but it was not so savory.”

As for where the show went wrong, Hall felt it lost something as an effect of running so long. “I think the show had lost a certain amount of torque,” he said. “Just inherently because of how long we’d done it, because of the storytelling capital we’d spent, because our writers may have been gassed.

Back in March, Hall told Zap2It that fans come up to him "all the time" to talk about the show.

“They’ll ask me about the ending,” he said “and tell me why they found it troubling or unsatisfying, or on the other hand, they want to distinguish themselves by saying they liked the ending."

Anyway, stop lying to Michael C. Hall. He knows the finale is crap, or as reviewers put it at the time "terrible," "unbelievably awful" and "a betrayal of the characters we knew."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/25/michael-c-hall-dexter_n_5389554.html?utm_hp_ref=tv&ir=TV


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No need to ask MCH or reviewers, I said at the time: it sucked.wink.gif

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Since dad continues to use Dexter as his profile pic, I'm guessing he liked the ending. eek.gif LOL

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post #6859 of 6863 Old 05-26-2014, 03:06 PM
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No need to ask MCH or reviewers, I said at the time: it sucked.wink.gif

Not really fair that MCH is getting the fallout from that. It is the writers who should be lynched (metaphorically of course) for that crap of the an ending.

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post #6860 of 6863 Old 05-26-2014, 04:12 PM
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Not really fair that MCH is getting the fallout from that. It is the writers who should be lynched (metaphorically of course) for that crap of the an ending.
MCH was a producer of the show.
If he didn't like what the writers had put together for the concluding chapter of the show and character that made him household name, he could have sent them back to the drawing room.wink.gif

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post #6861 of 6863 Old 05-26-2014, 04:20 PM
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MCH was a producer of the show.
If he didn't like what the writers had put together for the concluding chapter of the show and character that made him household name, he could have sent them back to the drawing room.wink.gif

No. He was "executive producer" which, as I understand it, is a title which just means that he gets more money.

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Executive_producer.html

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No. He was "executive producer" which, as I understand it, is a title which just means that he gets more money.

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Executive_producer.html
If you want to look at it that way, OK.

Nevertheless, my point still stands: he had veto power.wink.gif

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post #6863 of 6863 Old 05-27-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cuzzin View Post

Since dad continues to use Dexter as his profile pic, I'm guessing he liked the ending. eek.gif LOL

Has Dad even seen season 8 yet? The last time I remember seeing him post in this thread (not in a HOTP post) he mentioned that he hadn't had time to watch it yet.

~Tighr: Not helping the situation since 1983

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