Aspect Ratios on HBO HD - Page 7 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #181 of 291 Old 03-24-2007, 04:00 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

It seems to me that biker1 has failed to learn what is perhaps the most important lesson of posting: When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

On the contrary. Disagreeing with you doesn't constitute anything other than disagreeing with you. The fact is that I'm correct, and you're incorrect, even though there are more of you than there are of me, here in this forum. I simply don't kowtow to angry mobs, intent on prosecuting their wrong-headed perspectives. I politely address the issue.

So why don't we keep this thread focused on discussions of HBO and aspect ratios, instead of making it all about me? As I've said many times, I'm personally not that important, despite how much so many of you seem to be maniacally focused on me personally.
bicker1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #182 of 291 Old 03-24-2007, 04:03 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

The Ebert piece was excellent.

It was what it was, and what you'd expect to see written by a writer and film enthusiast. For balance, you'd have to also read a piece by someone who understand the other half of the issue, i.e., someone who runs a major business in the industry.

It's almost a form of masturbation to focus only the perspectives that you personally support. It's like trying to understand the American government by only reading the words of one of the two political parties.
bicker1 is offline  
post #183 of 291 Old 03-24-2007, 08:58 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 45,876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

Who says any of the things to the contrary? We're all making big assumptions, but I think mine (that a large, profitable, top-shelf company uses sales data and market intelligence to craft their service specification to address customer needs in a manner to optimize the financial rewards granted to them from their customers) isn't that much of a stretch.

Normally I would agree, but I've already told you otherwise.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

Ken H is offline  
post #184 of 291 Old 03-24-2007, 09:02 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 45,876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

It was what it was, and what you'd expect to see written by a writer and film enthusiast. For balance, you'd have to also read a piece by someone who understand the other half of the issue, i.e., someone who runs a major business in the industry.

It would be easy to find comments from executives at Showtime, or ABC, or HDNet that explain why they chose OAR for their film transfers. I'll post them later if that will help.

And remember, to the best of my knowledge, HBO has never once given an explanation as to why they fill the screen.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

Ken H is offline  
post #185 of 291 Old 03-24-2007, 09:03 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 45,876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

It's spelled bologna.

Thank you for the correction.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

Ken H is offline  
post #186 of 291 Old 03-24-2007, 09:34 AM
Moderator
 
CPanther95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 23,796
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

It would be easy to find comments from executives at Showtime, or ABC, or HDNet that explain why they chose OAR for their film transfers. I'll post them later if that will help.

And remember, to the best of my knowledge, HBO has never once given an explanation as to why they fill the screen.


... or NBC and SciFi as to why they choose to offer many of their original series in 16:9 that are aired on their 4:3 SD channels.
CPanther95 is offline  
post #187 of 291 Old 03-24-2007, 12:38 PM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

... or NBC and SciFi as to why they choose to offer many of their original series in 16:9 that are aired on their 4:3 SD channels.

Remember, I specifically support 16:9 on 4:3. I made that clear very early on. the difference between 16:9 and 4:3 is huge compared to the difference 1.85 and 16:9.
bicker1 is offline  
post #188 of 291 Old 03-24-2007, 01:08 PM
Moderator
 
CPanther95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 23,796
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 73
but not 2.35 to 16:9 - that is also a dramatic cut.

Plus, don't forget what you've reminded all of us ad nauseum - you're individual preference is irrelevant. I'm not talking about what you may prefer, I'm questioning your assertion that the "no-black bars" contingent is as big a force as you claim. If so, you'd think the executives at NBC and SciFi surely would eliminate the practice of 16:9 programming on 4:3 channels.
CPanther95 is offline  
post #189 of 291 Old 03-24-2007, 03:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jpco's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Fort Collins, CO
Posts: 1,947
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It's pretty simple, really. Any form of art or entertainment should be presented in the highest quality and as close to the intended state as possible. Why would we want anything less?

Yes, all films could be well composed at 1.78, but they are not. There are many tremendous films shot at 2.35, and that aspect ratio added to their impact as the director intended. We may prefer one or the other, but the finished film is what it is, a finished product. No further altering should be done.

At almost 200 posts, it's obvious that there's no viable discussion here.
jpco is offline  
post #190 of 291 Old 03-25-2007, 05:03 AM
AVS Special Member
 
chitchatjf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Lawrence MA
Posts: 3,314
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 12
The intent of this thread is to discuss Aspect Ratios on HBO HD,especially scope films.

HBO as a policy generally reformats scope films to fill a 16:9 screen but has shown some scope films in OAR,especially the Star Wars films!
chitchatjf is offline  
post #191 of 291 Old 03-25-2007, 05:20 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

but not 2.35 to 16:9 - that is also a dramatic cut.

I agree with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

Plus, don't forget what you've reminded all of us ad nauseum - you're individual preference is irrelevant. I'm not talking about what you may prefer

Really? For some reason I don't believe that. Rather, it seemed to me that, rather than addressing the issue I was raising, you decided to attack me personally.

Don't get me wrong: I appreciate you reforming your contributions to this thread. However, I still remember you focusing on me personally, rather than keeping to the topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

I'm questioning your assertion that the "no-black bars" contingent is as big a force as you claim.

I claim that you have no friggen idea how much of an issue this is for HBO's subscribers, and that you have no friggen idea what they know and don't know (and I claim that none of us here do, or if we did we wouldn't be allowed to say anything), and therefore you should stick to expressing nothing beyond your own personal disappointment that they're not serving you, rather than accusing them of not doing what's right for their customers.

Reasonable people can disagree about this issue. There does not have to be a single right answer. Respect those who adopt the contrary, but reasonable perspective, even if they run HBO.
bicker1 is offline  
post #192 of 291 Old 03-25-2007, 05:38 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Ken H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Metro Detroit
Posts: 45,876
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post


I claim that you have no friggen idea how much of an issue this is for HBO's subscribers, and that you have no friggen idea what they know and don't know (and I claim that none of us here do, or if we did we wouldn't be allowed to say anything)......

Wrong. It's already been explained.

'Better Living Through Modern, Expensive, Electronic Devices'

Ken H is offline  
post #193 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 07:19 AM
 
nyboy42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 221
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Has anyone noticed a PQ difference with HBO-HD compared to other channels. I have a Panasonic 42" plasma (60u) and I get ALOT OF GRANINESS AND CLAYFACE WHEN WATCHING HBO-HD. Which does not make sense because I am hooked up through HDMI. Other channels, such as TNT-HD or Discovery-HD come out crystal clear, but HBO-HD does not. I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this.
nyboy42 is offline  
post #194 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 07:44 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I've noticed the graininess on SHO-HD as well. I agree that TNT-HD and Discovery-HD are crystal clear. Generally, so is CBS-HD -- absolutely flawless.
bicker1 is offline  
post #195 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 08:06 AM
 
nyboy42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 221
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

I've noticed the graininess on SHO-HD as well. I agree that TNT-HD and Discovery-HD are crystal clear. Generally, so is CBS-HD -- absolutely flawless.

so what does this mean? Does this mean that are tv is not at fault for displaying these channels properly, OR does this mean that its the STB and stations responsible for the bad PQ. I am trying to determine whether I should return my tv for defective PQ
nyboy42 is offline  
post #196 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 09:31 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
scowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

If craft wants rights, they have the ability to only apply their efforts to projects where they retain those rights.

Unfortunately they don't. With the current distribution system, anonymous nobodies who don't understand film (or don't care) are calling the shots and making these poor decisions.

The DVD release of Tideland is a perfect example. Terry Gilliam, the guy who made the movie, spent extra time and labor making a version of his film that looked exactly how he wanted to look on television. To release this in America (and with this movie, he didn't have a lot of options), he handed this version to a bunch of idiots who ruined his efforts by chopping off the sides to make a 16:9 version. Now all he can do is beg people to not purchase the American version of his DVD.

NOW: my post on AVS Forum.
NEXT: someone else's post on AVS Forum.
scowl is offline  
post #197 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 10:30 AM
 
nyboy42's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 221
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
No one should EVER ALTER a film different from the director's release. If a director shot the film in 2.35 ratio then IT IS MEANT TO BE SEEN AT THAT RATIO. SO i agree with everything you say scowl. FILM IS ART, would anyone chop off the sides of a Mona Lisa so it could fit in a frame? I dont understand why a full 1.85 ratio would be pleasing WHEN YOU KNOW YOU ARE NOT WATCHIN WHAT THE DIRECTOR INTENDED YOU TO WATCH. I get so peeved when i see DVDs that are labeled FULL SCREEN. What an insult to this great art form of film.....

Also id like to add. I have just purchased a 42 in plasma after saving up for a good 2 years and always drooled with anticipation on how my movie viewing experience would change with the widescreen. Oh my god i have never seen film like this in my life. I see and notice things and even FEEL things from watching film in HD than i have never before. And I have been watching film all my life.
nyboy42 is offline  
post #198 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 10:40 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,571
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Liked: 464
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyboy42 View Post

I get so peeved when i see DVDs that are labeled FULL SCREEN. What an insult to this great art form of film.....

The preposterous Full Screen description used to describe cropped movies is not only an insult to film as an art form, it's an insult to the intelligence of DVD buyers. It takes a LOT of nerve to describe a film that has lost 40% of its horizontal aspect through cropping as Full Screen.
gwsat is offline  
post #199 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 11:03 AM
Member
 
OUKeith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 15
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Question: what are the best HD movie channels in terms of quality movie rotation and OAR? I have Comcast, if that matters any.
OUKeith is offline  
post #200 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 12:01 PM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyboy42 View Post

so what does this mean? Does this mean that are tv is not at fault for displaying these channels properly, OR does this mean that its the STB and stations responsible for the bad PQ. I am trying to determine whether I should return my tv for defective PQ

If you're having the same graininess that I am and that other folks here have, then it's pretty likely that it isn't your television, your STB, your service provider, nor your local television stations.
bicker1 is offline  
post #201 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 12:08 PM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

Unfortunately they don't. With the current distribution system, anonymous nobodies who don't understand film (or don't care) are calling the shots and making these poor decisions.

It's probably not a matter of not understanding nor not caring, but rather simply having different priorities from you. Even Terry Gilliam clearly didn't feel that his artistic vision was important enough to reserve his rights to dictate the parameters of its distribution in the United States. Perhaps his after-the-fact sour grapes will translate into future intentions to sacrifice some of the money he would get in return for more control. I doubt it though. I suspect that even someone like Terry Gilliam would rather get his "full pay" and sacrifice that control, and then complain about it after-the-fact for good measure.
bicker1 is offline  
post #202 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 12:59 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Josh Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Planet Boston, source of the spice, Melange.
Posts: 20,043
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

Even Terry Gilliam clearly didn't feel that his artistic vision was important enough to reserve his rights to dictate the parameters of its distribution in the United States.

You act as if he had a choice in the matter. The studios do not offer that choice except to the most powerful of directors.

Josh Z
Writer/Editor, High-Def Digest (Blog updated daily!)
Curator, Laserdisc Forever

My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employers.

Josh Z is offline  
post #203 of 291 Old 03-26-2007, 03:51 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
scowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10,440
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

It's probably not a matter of not understanding nor not caring, but rather simply having different priorities from you.

I'm sure we all agree on that!

Quote:


Even Terry Gilliam clearly didn't feel that his artistic vision was important enough to reserve his rights to dictate the parameters of its distribution in the United States.

How do know he didn't? If the distributor breeched the contract, how would Terry Gilliam legally sue them? How would you measure the "damages" the distributor caused by releasing a screwed up DVD? In the world where everything is about money, there are no damages. Perhaps that's why you don't understand what we're saying.

You see, these people want to spend their time making new films. That's what they live for. They don't want to waste their professional lives in courtrooms fighting to keep anonymous idiots from ruining the films they've already completed.

Quote:


Perhaps his after-the-fact sour grapes will translate into future intentions to sacrifice some of the money he would get in return for more control. I doubt it though. I suspect that even someone like Terry Gilliam would rather get his "full pay" and sacrifice that control, and then complain about it after-the-fact for good measure.

You seem to think this is just a standard option in distribution contracts! "Pay us extra and we promise not to screw up your release!" Can you cite one specific example of where a director has "sacrificed" money to prevent amateurs from monkeying around with one of their films? Why do you think Kubrik kept all his movies locked up so no one could mess with them?

Since you think this all about money, how much money do you think Terry Gilliam is getting from the American sales of Tideland? Hint: it's less than what he'll get paid to direct his next film.

NOW: my post on AVS Forum.
NEXT: someone else's post on AVS Forum.
scowl is offline  
post #204 of 291 Old 03-27-2007, 04:05 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

You act as if he had a choice in the matter.

My mother taught me that you always have choices in your life. It is a child's way out to complain that you did something because you felt you had no other option. Rather, maturity dictates that you (1) accept responsibility for the choices you make, (2) recognize that sometimes your conflicting goals in life require you to make tough decisions, and (3) do not skulk away from the negative ramifications of those tough choices.

In other words, he did have a choice, and he chose to take the job, even though it meant he would agree to (and here's the important part) grant artistic control of the distribution to the studio. Once he did that, that aspect of artistic propriety is solely and completely the purview of the studio.
bicker1 is offline  
post #205 of 291 Old 03-27-2007, 04:10 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

How do know he didn't?

By his actions. Talk is cheap. Actions are the true window to a person's soul.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

You see, these people want to spend their time making new films. That's what they live for.

And in order to do that they have to accept the reality of the world as it is presented to them. Again, it's a matter of simple maturity.

Regardless, note that he did make the film he wanted to make. He then, as he agreed to in advance, gave the film over to the distributors, subject only to the principles outlined in the agreement, which (did I mention?) he agreed to in advance. More aspects of maturity: Fulfilling your obligations, and not expecting to be entitled to more than you're promised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scowl View Post

You seem to think this is just a standard option in distribution contracts!

It doesn't matter if it is or it isn't... actually, since it isn't, that means that there isn't significant demand for it. You may feel it is important, but evidently our society doesn't. Get over it.
bicker1 is offline  
post #206 of 291 Old 03-27-2007, 04:33 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
gwsat's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Tulsa
Posts: 14,571
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 165 Post(s)
Liked: 464
Alas, biker1 continues to stubbornly insist on the righteousness of his position, the facts notwithstanding. His hardheadedness reminds me of the old story about the mother who was watching her soldier son march down 5th Avenue in New York in a parade following World War II. As her son's company passed, the mother exclaimed, Oh, look, they're all out of step but Johnnie!
gwsat is offline  
post #207 of 291 Old 03-27-2007, 06:58 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Josh Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Planet Boston, source of the spice, Melange.
Posts: 20,043
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

My mother taught me that you always have choices in your life. It is a child's way out to complain that you did something because you felt you had no other option. Rather, maturity dictates that you (1) accept responsibility for the choices you make, (2) recognize that sometimes your conflicting goals in life require you to make tough decisions, and (3) do not skulk away from the negative ramifications of those tough choices.

In other words, he did have a choice, and he chose to take the job, even though it meant he would agree to (and here's the important part) grant artistic control of the distribution to the studio. Once he did that, that aspect of artistic propriety is solely and completely the purview of the studio.

You really don't have the slightest clue how the film industry works. Please stop speaking as if you do.

Josh Z
Writer/Editor, High-Def Digest (Blog updated daily!)
Curator, Laserdisc Forever

My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employers.

Josh Z is offline  
post #208 of 291 Old 03-28-2007, 03:28 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

Alas, biker1 continues to stubbornly insist on the righteousness of his position, the facts notwithstanding.

More resorting to personal attacks instead of addressing the issue? Why are you so afraid of an honest, mature discussion? Why are you so afraid of perspectives that differ from yours being expressed? Or is it that you are simply incapable of showing respect to anyone who holds different beliefs from you?
bicker1 is offline  
post #209 of 291 Old 03-28-2007, 03:33 AM
 
bicker1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Burlington, MA
Posts: 8,289
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

You really don't have the slightest clue how the film industry works. Please stop speaking as if you do.

I'm talking about how life works, Josh. I do know how the film industry works, especially the part you apparently hate and try to ignore (to your detriment and the detriment of this discussion): the part that actually funds all the stuff you think is the entirety of the film industry. I wouldn't say you don't understand how the business side of the industry works, but rather that you seem to be in denial about it. That side of the industry has every right to exist, and exert its influence, as the artistic side.

Beyond that, in the message you quoted, I'm talking about life, responsibility, maturity, accepting reality, not just the "film industry".
bicker1 is offline  
post #210 of 291 Old 03-28-2007, 06:31 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Josh Z's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Planet Boston, source of the spice, Melange.
Posts: 20,043
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 256 Post(s)
Liked: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

More resorting to personal attacks instead of addressing the issue? Why are you so afraid of an honest, mature discussion?

Be sure to get back to us as soon as one starts.

Josh Z
Writer/Editor, High-Def Digest (Blog updated daily!)
Curator, Laserdisc Forever

My opinions are my own, and do not necessarily reflect those of my employers.

Josh Z is offline  
Closed Thread HDTV Programming

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off