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post #17551 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 01:38 PM
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we're going to get resolution to "it worked" from the S5 finale - I'm just wondering what that's going to look like.
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post #17552 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 01:45 PM
 
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It just occurred to me yet another reason while we'll never have another show like LOST on the iar for quite awhile. Try imagine a show from this point forward with major plot event of ordinary people landing\\arriving at a mystical place and experiencing extraordinary and mysterious things. A cave? Mountain valley? Fourth spatial dimension? Underwater colony? Alien planet? I cant think of a single one remotely as intriguing as an Island and certainly not one that could convincingly come across as a character in and of itself.

Gah.. 4 mour hours!! I cant wait. Not to overhype it and risk a letdown, but this episode is already getting rave reviews from people who were reactionarily bitching and moaning about last week.
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post #17553 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by lwright84 View Post

It just occurred to me yet another reason while we'll never have another show like LOST on the iar for quite awhile. Try imagine a show from this point forward with major plot event of ordinary people landing\\arriving at a mystical place and experiencing extraordinary and mysterious things. A cave? Mountain valley? Fourth spatial dimension? Underwater colony? Alien planet? I cant think of a single one remotely as intriguing as an Island and certainly not one that could convincingly come across as a character in and of itself.

Gah.. 4 mour hours!! I cant wait. Not to overhype it and risk a letdown, but this episode is already getting rave reviews from people who were reactionarily bitching and moaning about last week.

Both tonight's installment & the finale have been screened for "real people" out there. There were some rumblings that What They Died For (tonight's) eased some folks aprehensions after last week - but I purposely avoided any possible spoiler-synopses of tonight's ep.

So we'll see - but hey, don't oversell it, man!

Money does not buy happiness. It can, however, buy you a giant boat that you can pull up alongside happiness. - David Lee Roth

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post #17554 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by lwright84 View Post

Not to overhype it and risk a letdown, but this episode is already getting rave reviews from people who were reactionarily bitching and moaning about last week.

How have these people seen it? Has it already aired somewhere (ie Canada)?


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post #17555 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 01:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

How have these people seen it? Has it already aired somewhere (ie Canada)?

It was shown at the LOST LIVE event this past Thursday, and there have been spoilers galore including a whole synopsis of the episode out since then. I made the mistake of glancing over a spoiler-laced one but I closed it before too much damage was done.

I did however look at many spoiler-free impressions, reviews, etc.. ones that werent summaries or synopsises. One of them even started with something to the effect of "Ok, let me first say that I thought LOST completely jumped the shark last week with ATS, and have been bad-mouthing it ever since..." and then goes on to say how this episode inspired him and even had him appreciating last week's more.

Could just be his experience, but it does fall in line with the things I've been preaching and defending against in this thread, so I'm encouraged!
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post #17556 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jwebb1970 View Post

Maybe it isn't.

"Island" Ben seemed like a decent kid with a craptastic father. The relationship w/ dad seemingly got worse once they arrived @ the Dharma outpost. And it was that relationship that surely shaped Ben into the seemingly vile bastard he became - or at the least made it easier for him to do things @ Jacob's/the island's behest that he may not have done in any other circumstance. In the end, his dad seemed to have been trying to somehow at least begin to redeem himself for being such a prick, but it was too late - nerve gas time for him & the rest of Dharma-ville. Because Jacob & the "island" willed it & Ben was bad or dumb enough to follow through.

.

Island Ben, even with his terrible father, seemed to doing ok, and was still a pretty decent kid. What changed him forever was being brought to the Temple by Richard to be healed after being shot by Sayid. Richard even said that he would never be the same and asked Kate one last time if she still wanted him to take the boy into the Temple.
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post #17557 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by joblo View Post

Works for me.


Huh? What warnings??

I didn’t see everything that led to the Dharma purge, but I’ve seen ATS twice and I don’t recall Crazy Mother warning anybody about anything. Not Birth Mom, not the Romans, and not her own son before she slammed him into a wall and knocked him unconscious. I did see CM tell BM and MiB she was sorry. Maybe CM told the Romans she was sorry as she slaughtered them, too, but they just didn’t have time to fit that into the show.

They likely never would have started digging if her boy hadn't egged them on. And he wasn't going to stop just because she asked him to, would he? But she couldn't allow them to continue that work because, well, it could be the end of the world.

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Yeah, well... that was Hitler’s rationale with the Jews, too, of course.

(I mean, I hate to resort to the Nazi analogy, but this was about saving the whole world, of course, and Jacob’s reign did apparently exceed even Hitler’s dream Reich by nearly a factor of two.)

You're not really trying to equate Hitler with Jacob are you? Isn't there some sad state that a discussion decends to the moment someone starts doing that?

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Right. It was The Island’s fault. The Island transformed Ben from a decent human being into a mass murderer.

No, it was mostly his father and that trip to the Temple to be "healed" as we've been discussing. But living there certainly didn't help. It's a pretty dysfunctional place.

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So remind me please, this Island is worth protecting and preserving, why??

Again, if the DHARMA Initiative had kept going, they may have brought about the end of the world. They were told to stop, and they didn't. They had to go and if they wouldn't go peacefully, what's a Protector of all Existence (possibly) going to do? What's so hard to understand about that? Geez...
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post #17558 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by lwright84 View Post

It was shown at the LOST LIVE event this past Thursday, and there have been spoilers galore including a whole synopsis of the episode out since then. I made the mistake of glancing over a spoiler-laced one but I closed it before too much damage was done.

I did however look at many spoiler-free impressions, reviews, etc.. ones that werent summaries or synopsises. One of them even started with something to the effect of "Ok, let me first say that I thought LOST completely jumped the shark last week with ATS, and have been bad-mouthing it ever since..." and then goes on to say how this episode inspired him and even had him appreciating last week's more.

Could just be his experience, but it does fall in line with the things I've been preaching and defending against in this thread, so I'm encouraged!

Like I said when I posted the pic of Kate, all this nonsense will end after tonights episode.

Well, some of it anyway.
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post #17559 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:21 PM
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this is really a different discussion, but since when did religions follow what Christ actually said? In the real world, to get right with god/in front of everybody, you've got to go be baptized, rebaptized, confessional, penance, face judgement from the elders, blah blah etc. and if you're unlucky enough to not have a savior? whooooo. WANDER IN THE DESERT FOR GENERATIONS BITCHES! flood! flies! blah blah blah, old testament went pretty hard. You could say losing his daughter was the punishment, but it doesn't work, since that happened way before and oh yeah, she wasn't really his daughter, she was a girl he kidnapped from her real mom. Because he's a psychopath. Remember when he gassed his own dad?

But again, 'til you do that thing, it hasn't happened.

that there is really no "religion" and most of the people left on the island have no idea what it could even be further strains the comparison.

You're right, this is heading toward a discussion that's not in line with the show. I would never deny that there are some bad examples of Christianity out there. But I would like to say that there are lots of people that are doing what Christ said; it just doesn't make the news. Now if someone in the church messes up (and everybody does at some time) or there's a debate about a doctrinal issue, that's what you're likely to see on TV. I personally know former drug dealers, alcoholics, and former jail inmates who have been redeemed and their lives have been radically changed. Maybe it's just easier for those who have seen what happens to a redeemed person to grasp the premise as displayed in LOST.

Another literary example is Les Miserables. Javert continue to hound Valjean, yet a definitely-changed Valjean showed him mercy. Javert, who was very strict in the application of the law, couldn't comprehend Valjean's compassion and ended up committing suicide.

While I don't believe the theme of redemption is the key to LOST, it shouldn't be ignored or seen as a form of literary "cop-out." When the consequences don't turn out the way we'd like, we should make sure that we don't overlook the new possibilities for the character that come about as the result. Ben's character could be a symbol to those who believe they have no hope although they desperately want it. Some will be very disappointed in the way Ben was handled, others will see hope. No matter what, the character has been one of the most compelling I've ever seen on TV.
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post #17560 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:24 PM
 
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While I don't believe the theme of redemption is the key to LOST

It is a very prominent, and focused theme of the show, imo.

Ben's redemption began in season 4, when he realized that Locke had superceded him, and he had worn out his usefulness. He wasn't supposed to be the one to move the Island, but manipulated his way into doing so anyway. Remember his last words.. "I hope your happy now, Jacob".. chilling considering he'd never so much as met the guy.

Yes Ben was extremely self-centered, but at the same time he was constantly seeking approval and attention (one of which he never received, and the other he received inappropriately) even since he was a kid. He was blamed for his mother's death by his own father (which later spawn his vested interest in defeating the effects that the Incident fallout had on pregnant women on the Island). He was shot by a grown man that he trusted to help him. He was forced to wait years to get what he truly wanted, and then he was thrust into a rivalry with Widmore. Even after he became the "leader" he was second-guessed and never seemed to have the full command and respect of those around him (and especially those from whom he wanted it the most, like Jacob).

Ben is like the genius with no social skills, the road to hell that is paved with good intentions. I believe his desire to protect the Island andd be a good leader is overshadowed only by his inate desire for attention and approval as outlined above. He sacrificed everything for the sake of BOTH of these pursuits and ended up receiving neither. And as a result, we have watched him transform from scheming, manipulative, self-assured, self-preserving, and acting out of a mindset of seeming invinicibility to a broken, humbled, dejected, confused, and hopeless man acting out of a mindset of having lost or failed at everything.

His arc in season 5 was wonderful, watching him realize that his "power" was all but worthless anymore in the presence of Locke (later revealed to be MIB). Seeing him accept the reality that he didnt think was possible was almost heart-breaking, which is astonishing considering all the despicable things this character has done. We see him accepting this reality even further when he admits to lying becase "thats what I do", struggling with who he is, who he has been, and who he wants to be.

His redemption with Illana illustrated just this. He went to take the "easy route" again, and go back to the comforts of the "bad" side, because he felt it was the only side that would have him. When Illana refused to take the course of action and kill Ben, instead offering him acceptance (forgiveness) and attention to his vulnerability.. Ben finally made the right choice.

The two scenes that followed this were some of the most touching in his redemptive arc, imo. One was him asking Sun if she needed any help. The way he asked was so hesistant and so soft, as if this was the first time he offered to be selfless and offer to help someone. The second scene is when Jack & Hurley arrive at the beach and everyone runs to greet them. We pan back and see that Ben, who is probably "happy" to see them as well, realizes that the feeling is not mutual. That he has no one looking to reunite with him. That as a consequence for his past, he is destined to be alone in his future. Again, heartbreaking and inescapably intriguing.. especially for such a negative and seemingly evil character.
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post #17561 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by archiguy View Post

....
You're not really trying to equate Hitler with Jacob are you? Isn't there some sad state that a discussion decends to the moment someone starts doing that?
...


...

Godwin's Law. After over 17,000 post it pretty much has to happen no matter what. It's science.
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post #17562 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:35 PM
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There are such wonderful people and discussions all throughout the rest of the forums, so this may be some of the best LOST discussion on the internet!"

So I jump in and read many pages of discussion here. I'm disappointed and embarassed.

That's at least two of us..





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Even though my reply adds nothing to the discussion , well said, mdr.

*Really* looking forward to tonight.

A reminder for those of us that don't have the DVD or BluRay of Season 1 - the first episode airs on Saturday night, if you want to record it. First-run season passes won't catch it, so record it manually.

I wonder if it'll be "enhanced"..?





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So you'd go for a stroll in the forest with a murderer who had previously tried to kill you (in that forest) because he flashed a cross and said it was all good now?

Would you do that?

/faith.

Only after he's been institutionalized and paid his debt. And even then, I probably wouldn't go alone (don't think I've seen anyone flash a cross on this show). Nobody's talking about being stupid..





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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

So is "an eye for an eye"...

It's not. But that's a debate for another forum.






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BTW: who signs onto a show, then wants off because they're "home sick"? Don't adults know how to be adults anymore? You have an entire cast of people that moved to Hawaii for this show. What about them? You don't think more than a few of them felt home sick.

Lame.

If I'm remembering correctly, he had a deathly sick parent at the time. But I really don't know if that excuse was truly valid or not.






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Originally Posted by joblo View Post

So remind me please, this Island is worth protecting and preserving, why??

That probably will be the last reveal and the only mystery left I truly care about.

"I knew you'd say that"...*BLAM!*
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post #17563 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Viventis View Post

Island Ben, even with his terrible father, seemed to doing ok, and was still a pretty decent kid. What changed him forever was being brought to the Temple by Richard to be healed after being shot by Sayid. Richard even said that he would never be the same and asked Kate one last time if she still wanted him to take the boy into the Temple.

I'd think his initial contact w/ the Others (via Richard) & the fact that they seemingly were willing to embrace him as potentially one of their own down the road is what first changed him. New "parental' figures at a time when he was seriously hating on dad surely shaped the Ben Linus he grew to be.

The post-shooting Temple incident most likey just solidified that & made Ben's "otherness" official. He was already thier inside man w/ Dharma (made obvious to me, at least, in young Ben's interest in Sayid prior to being shot by him).

My question is whether sideways Ben - who we know WAS on the island w/ his Dad at some point - also shot by Sayid & resurrected in the Temple jacuzzi?

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post #17564 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:40 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rezzy View Post

I wonder if it'll be "enhanced"..?

Yes it will.

Also, the 2-hour preshow before the finale "Lost: The Journey" is a retrospective on the last 6 seasons with a focus on the finale.. meaning that I believe it will have a narrative tone that shows the last 6 seasons and the various relevancies to the final 2.5 hours. Might be a good watch for those of you who think that LOST just randomly took an unforeseen and unwarranted turn in the story to just be about 2 brats & a crazy mom and magic watering hole of light. In addition there will be behind-the-scenes stuff from the Pilot episode as well as other goodies. Should be much better than your typical "heres the story of LOST in under an hour" shows we've gotten in seasons past.
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post #17565 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:42 PM
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Ugh.... based on these reports of the upcoming episode, I'm getting somewhat excited to see the show again. Of course, if this episode lets me down, now it'll be even worse.

Eck!


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post #17566 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 02:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by gremmy View Post

Ugh.... based on these reports of the upcoming episode, I'm getting somewhat excited to see the show again. Of course, if this episode lets me down, now it'll be even worse.

Eck!

I recommend.. cautious anticipation. See how that pays off for you.
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post #17567 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 03:09 PM
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I'm hypothesizing that someone else on the island is gonna enter the magic glowing hole & perhaps "sink the island" in some form or fashion. Maybe by eating all that chocolate cake or Keamey's eggs!!

And the guy in the hole? Most likely Desmond Hume. This fits with my personal theory that NO ONE survives the island's fate, but live on sideways w/ some sort of cognitive recognition of their other existence. Gives some meaning behind Juliet's message of "it worked" from beyond, maybe?

Just guessing...

That fits with my theory that all the events on the island will be made to "go away" and the Sideways timeline will just be an epilogue. Your idea of someone going into the glowing hole causing the island (and everything we have seen on it) to disappear is just the kind of OMG moment that I think the creators have in mind. In fact, you may have just guessed the exact outcome of the series. I would not be suprised at all. Congrats on a very creative solution!

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post #17568 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 03:43 PM
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I checked out of the thread to avoid all the ongoing rumbling toward the end of last week so I don't know if this has been posted or not. If it has, nevermind... If not, there are no spoilers at all. It's a video clip series of a "workplace interview" between the Totally LOST guys and Jacob/MIB. Very funny.


http://www.ew.com/ew/video/0,,203134...id=86386095001


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post #17569 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 04:31 PM
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No matter what, the character has been one of the most compelling I've ever seen on TV.


On this I don't disagree with you, the problem is I don't see the progression as a character "arc" for ben. there was a straight line, and then it hit a wall and bounced off in this other direction and then was left to rot and die in the corner while we watch the temple filler and the bieber twins.
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post #17570 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jwebb1970 View Post

"Island" Ben seemed like a decent kid with a craptastic father. The relationship w/ dad seemingly got worse once they arrived @ the Dharma outpost. And it was that relationship that surely shaped Ben into the seemingly vile bastard he became - or at the least made it easier for him to do things @ Jacob's/the island's behest that he may not have done in any other circumstance. In the end, his dad seemed to have been trying to somehow at least begin to redeem himself for being such a prick, but it was too late - nerve gas time for him & the rest of Dharma-ville. Because Jacob & the "island" willed it & Ben was bad or dumb enough to follow through.

Don't forget, Ben's dad pretty much hated him the whole time. Roger blamed Ben for killing his Mom in childbirth.

Exasperating the situation was the whole "Roger: Workman" thing where he was essentially a janitor. Once he got to that point, it was all about the drinky-drink and plenty of mean words for Ben, particularly on his birthdays.

So, if the relationship got worse, it wasn't because of the island - it was hate already there, spiked with a crappy job Roger didn't realize he was being hired for.

This is what drove Ben to "The Others" in the first place. By the time he was shot by Sayid and taken to the pool, he was a big old ball of hate that became a clean slate for programming to be a homicidal bastard.


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post #17571 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 05:19 PM
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Maybe not due to homesickness on a star's part, but ask the heads of just about any TV series that hired Mandy Patinkin that question.

Didn't Mandy have cancer?

I pretty sure cancer trumps everything except death when it comes to contracts.


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post #17572 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 05:35 PM
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Alright - can't wait for this episode! Hopefully, it is everything I have heard it is and more!

After finally catching up - (wow, this thread has really been at full speed lately), one thing has always bothered me - Walt.

What show hires a character, sets him up as being someone very important to the whole plot, etc., then has to write him out because they couldn't foresee that he might grow??? Lack of foresight, that is.

Too bad about Eko as well. Would have been awesome to have him v. Locke the last few seasons, like they had planned. On the one hand, I am totally for anyone deciding for themselves what is best for them in life. On the other hand, you'd think he would know what he was getting himself into, having to move across the world, etc. I am just bitter because of what they had to do with Eko's character based on that. I have to keep reminding myself of the first point, that everyone is entitled to decide what is best for themselves and their family.

Anyway - I am coming around on the whole magic island with the soft nougaty center. But I feel like I have to turn my brain off a little bit to do that.

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post #17573 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by rjcc View Post

On this I don't disagree with you, the problem is I don't see the progression as a character "arc" for ben. there was a straight line, and then it hit a wall and bounced off in this other direction and then was left to rot and die in the corner while we watch the temple filler and the bieber twins.

Agreed, unfortunately. I keep asking myself why Ben spent all that time with his face smashed in.... I keep waiting for evidence that he "always had a plan."

I am seriously holding out hope for the finale that Ben will come back around and be the evil genuis we came to love earlier in the series. Michael Emerson has always been great as Ben -- I wish we'd had more of him during S6.


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post #17574 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 06:29 PM
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Did Richard just die?
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post #17575 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 06:50 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jonnythan View Post

Did Richard just die?

Sure seemed like it, but I dont think so. Widmore and Zoe did though! lol

Looks like you got your wish gremmy, Ben was superb this episode so far.
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post #17576 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 07:02 PM
 
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Wooooooohooooooo!! Sunday cant come soon enough!

If nothing else, the promise of Kate in a little black dress should have everyone tuned in, lol..
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post #17577 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by lwright84 View Post

If nothing else, the promise of Kate in a little black dress should have everyone tuned in, lol..

eh, she hasn't looked good since season 2.
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post #17578 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 07:06 PM
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So, even though Kate's name was crossed off the wall, she could still be a candidate? It was just a chalk mark.

I guess the numbers really didn't mean anything at all, then.

This was yet another disappointing episode. It's becoming apparent that a lot of this show's setup didn't really ever have any intended meaning.

Thankfully, there's only one episode left.

Scott

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post #17579 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 07:08 PM
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I f'in love this show. Great episode.
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post #17580 of 21026 Old 05-18-2010, 07:12 PM
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Now that's a bit more like it.

Of course, I'm a bit annoyed that it looks like Jack is the one to protect the island. Maybe it's an "razor stubble" thing: you have to be partially unshaven to guard the light. Perhaps a lack of any personality helps, too.

It's disappointing Widmore's only purpose was to die telling Locke he only came back to bring Desmond to the island to be a "fail safe". In other words, it may be his job to "turn the key" again, so to speak.

Locke tossing Richard was telegraphed the moment he decided to go out there. I never thought Richard was a playmaker, anyway, so if he's dead, it's no big loss. However, I'm pretty sure he'll be fine since Jacob gave him immortality and so far, the island wants him alive.

On the other hand, Ben was in great form tonight. It's nice to see him as his old self again.

"Did you say there were some other people to kill?"

Nice.

That being said, I still think having it all come down to a magic light that affects the entire world is lame.

BTW: remember when you could start rolling a show on your DVR 15 minutes in and not catch up til the end? I caught up 2 commercial breaks from the end. That's a lot of ads...


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