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post #1351 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 10:26 AM
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You don't remember that he basically raped her?

larry

Ya know, I honestly don't. I'll have to go back and check that out.
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post #1352 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 10:37 AM
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The problem I have with this dream or not dream sequence is either it really happened and the season will probably end with a "Who Shot Don Draper?" cliffhanger, or Don has mental problems that are so severe that a fever causes hallucinations of sex and murder that are so real to him that he can't tell them from reality.

Yeah, that was weak - him not knowing it was a dream. I've had a few dreams that were frightening in their reality, and when I awoke, I not only knew it was a dream, but knew exactly what it meant (never pleasant.)

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post #1353 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 12:25 PM
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I think you all are unfairly discounting the fact that they were fever induced. Fever induced nightmares/hallucinations feel very real.


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post #1354 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bruce73 View Post

Ya know, I honestly don't. I'll have to go back and check that out.

Second season - near the end.
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post #1355 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by blitzen102 View Post


Second season - near the end.

Yes, thanks, I googled and found it -- s02e12. I've never liked the guy ... Now I remember why. ;-)
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post #1356 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by blitzen102 View Post

Second season - near the end.

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Originally Posted by bruce73 View Post

Yes, thanks, I googled and found it -- s02e12. I've never liked the guy ... Now I remember why. ;-)

That's right. I watched my Season 2 BDs last week. Greg was certainly a rat where Joan was concerned. As detestable as he was in most ways, though, it's hard not to admire the guy for his patriotism and devotion to duty.
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post #1357 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 06:54 PM
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That's right. I watched my Season 2 BDs last week. Greg was certainly a rat where Joan was concerned. As detestable as he was in most ways, though, it's hard not to admire the guy for his patriotism and devotion to duty.

Not for me. I don't think his motivation is devotion to duty and patriotism. I think he's a megalomaniac. He couldn't control his wife, so he raped her. He didn't get the job he wanted, so he found one that gives him a high level of control over others.

He's a dirt bag, plain and simple.

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post #1358 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

That's right. I watched my Season 2 BDs last week. Greg was certainly a rat where Joan was concerned. As detestable as he was in most ways, though, it's hard not to admire the guy for his patriotism and devotion to duty.

There are plenty of patriots to admire without having to admire patriot rapists.

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post #1359 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Not for me. I don't think his motivation is devotion to duty and patriotism. I think he's a megalomaniac. He couldn't control his wife, so he raped her. He didn't get the job he wanted, so he found one that gives him a high level of control over others.

He's a dirt bag, plain and simple.

I don't disagree that Greg's conduct toward Joan was reprehensible and he clearly chose the Army because his civilian medical career was foundering. Regardless of his motivations for choosing the Army, though, he turned out to be a good Army doctor. That said, where Joan is concerned, Greg's Army record is a very thin silver lining in guy who is mostly a big black cloud. Thought I made that clear in my last post buy maybe not.
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post #1360 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

I don't disagree that Greg's conduct toward Joan was reprehensible and he clearly chose the Army because his civilian medical career was foundering. Regardless of his motivations for choosing the Army, though, he turned out to be a good Army doctor. That said, where Joan is concerned, Greg's Army record is a very thin silver lining in guy who is mostly a big black cloud. Thought I made that clear in my last post buy maybe not.

I'm in complete agreement with Ken H, and would point out that we only know his version of his service medical career, and that version as told to his wife. It's possible that the Army "made a man out of him" but he's such a pathetic looser I find that doubtful.

The larger question, and it's huge, is why haven't they explored more fully Joan's having anything to do with the guy at all. There are enough overlapping issues of how such a seemingly desirable woman would work so hard to make a life with this idiot to make another show.

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post #1361 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Not for me. I don't think his motivation is devotion to duty and patriotism. I think he's a megalomaniac. He couldn't control his wife, so he raped her. He didn't get the job he wanted, so he found one that gives him a high level of control over others.

He's a dirt bag, plain and simple.

Yep. At best, Greg is trying to drown his guilt over the rape by serving exemplary in the army.


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post #1362 of 2493 Old 04-11-2012, 10:03 PM
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Thank God he's not the father of Joan's kid, not that Roger's much better, but at least he cares for her. I'm still sticking to everything but the elevator encounter to being all a dream. It's just too much to swallow that a chance encounter would have the mistress find his new address, find the apartment, and just show up in the middle of the afternoon not knowing if Don was there alone or with his new wife. I do think it was weak writing that we don't see on this show very often. And yes fever induced dreams can be very lucid but that's no excuse for what we saw in an otherwise good episode.
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post #1363 of 2493 Old 04-12-2012, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post

I don't disagree that Greg's conduct toward Joan was reprehensible and he clearly chose the Army because his civilian medical career was foundering. Regardless of his motivations for choosing the Army, though, he turned out to be a good Army doctor. That said, where Joan is concerned, Greg's Army record is a very thin silver lining in guy who is mostly a big black cloud. Thought I made that clear in my last post buy maybe not.

How do you that he is a "good Army doctor"? He could be a mediocre one. He could be a Frank Burns.

Do you know what happens to the person that finishes last in their class at medical school?
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post #1364 of 2493 Old 04-12-2012, 07:09 AM
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The larger question, and it's huge, is why haven't they explored more fully Joan's having anything to do with the guy at all. There are enough overlapping issues of how such a seemingly desirable woman would work so hard to make a life with this idiot to make another show.

I couldn't agree more. Joan is both beautiful and smart, so why did she wait until she was over 30 to marry and then choose the sorry Greg? Another silver lining in Greg's sordid relationship with Joan is that he, albeit unknowingly, provided legitimacy to Joan's child.

I love Joanie. I thought the scene in which she broke down in Lane's office because she was afraid she had been replaced was one the show's all time best. That was the one in which Lane reassured her by saying of the two young women who were trying to do Joan's bookkeeping duties, "The two of them together couldn't operate a parking meter. They're imbeciles!"
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post #1365 of 2493 Old 04-12-2012, 08:51 AM
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How do you that he is a "good Army doctor"? He could be a mediocre one. He could be a Frank Burns.

Do you know what happens to the person that finishes last in their class at medical school?

He gets an MD degree?

And somebody has an appointment with him/her in the near future.
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post #1366 of 2493 Old 04-12-2012, 09:10 AM
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He gets an MD degree?

You got it!
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post #1367 of 2493 Old 04-12-2012, 09:14 AM
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I can tell you it's very hard to fail out of medical school. I had a few classmates who had to go an extra year, but out of a class of 220, I can't recall anyone who didn't finish eventually. They get state funding for every student, they don't want to risk it.
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post #1368 of 2493 Old 04-12-2012, 10:12 AM
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Yes, there are plenty of doctors out there that barely made it through (though I am not saying all that barely made it are bad doctors).

Also, I don't think doctors were begging the US Army to stay in Vietnam. If ANY doctor (regardless of skill or lack-thereof) wanted to stay for extra time voluntarily, they would take ANY warm body.
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post #1369 of 2493 Old 04-12-2012, 10:15 AM
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I think it goes, "What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class in medical school?" - "Doctor."
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post #1370 of 2493 Old 04-12-2012, 10:24 AM
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I think you all are unfairly discounting the fact that they were fever induced. Fever induced nightmares/hallucinations feel very real.

If you start having fever-induced hallucinations, go to the hospital immediately because you are dying. And no matter how bad your fever is, you won't be wondering afterwards if you strangled a woman and hidden her corpse under your bed unless you already have mental problems.

Mad Men has used two other narrative devices that broke from the straight narrative they do so well. A few seasons ago Don conversed with his dead father as if he were in the room. This replaced the old fashioned technique of having the dead person be an "echoy" voiceover (assumed to be only in the person's head) which is now corny. Beginning in the third season of Dexter they started using this same technique of Dexter talking to his dead father as if he were in the room. They did this because it was much cheaper than shooting flashbacks which they had done in the previous seasons and it had already worked in Six Feet Under. Fortunately Mad Men didn't start doing this regularly.

The other one was Don seeing "Anna's ghost" waving goodbye. I thought Don seeing a ghost was silly and was a pointless break from straight narrative. Thank God they didn't have Don start talking to Anna as if she were in the room!

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post #1371 of 2493 Old 04-12-2012, 11:30 AM
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Don's "dream" strangling was one of the most disturbing things I have ever seen on TV.

Mainly because is was unclear that it was a "fever dream", I wouldn't have thought (or believed that) Don was a cold-hearted murder- but that is exactly what was presented.
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post #1372 of 2493 Old 04-13-2012, 09:59 AM
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When Don strangled the girl to death, I stood up out of my chair and exclaimed "what just happened?!" to my wife. It took me a minute but once I thought about his fever I said to her that it had to be a dream. Then, it turned out to be a dream.

Still, for a second, I was definitely having a WTF moment.
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post #1373 of 2493 Old 04-13-2012, 11:32 AM
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^^^^ Me, too.

He was stewing about the whole thing and it was no surprise he dreamt it, fever or not.

larry

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post #1374 of 2493 Old 04-13-2012, 10:51 PM
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Someone, anyone... PLEASE put Bette out of my misery for me and everyone...

Edit 1: Oh wow... That water looks umm... "clean".

Edit 2:
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So... I guess Don's "murder" was a hallucination... ?

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post #1375 of 2493 Old 04-15-2012, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirjonsnow View Post

I think it goes, "What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class in medical school?" - "Doctor."

Yes, that's exactly how the joke goes. Doctor jokes are easy on doctors (I have 4 in my family).
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post #1376 of 2493 Old 04-15-2012, 12:04 PM
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Although Greg's decision to volunteer to spend another year in Viet Nam was an admirable one, at least by 1966 standards, he handled it miserably. The guy was such an entitled, self-centered a**hole, he didn't understand that such a decision was a family matter, which required consultation with Joanie. Sheesh, what a twerp!

I watched Episode 3 again today with my grandson and am now convinced that the murder scene was Don's fever induced hallucination, not the real thing. First, Don Draper of all people would never leave a door unlocked in a New York City apartment. Second, at the end of Don's dream Andrea's leg was sticking out from under the bed but was no longer in sight the next morning. Finally, Don's wife came home within an hour or so after Andrea left and spent the night in bed with Don. Works for me.
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post #1377 of 2493 Old 04-15-2012, 01:42 PM
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Is there really any question that it was an hallucination? It struck me as corny symbolism of Don putting his wandering ways "under the bed" once and for all, and then after he awoke, he told his wife that she would never "have to worry about him" again. Don seems to be realizing his mortality.

Of course, this is Don we're talking about, so I wouldn't take any bets on his future fidelity.
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post #1378 of 2493 Old 04-15-2012, 01:53 PM
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Although Greg's decision to volunteer to spend another year in Viet Nam was an admirable one, at least by 1966 standards, he handled it miserably. The guy was such an entitled, self-centered a**hole, he didn't understand that such a decision was a family matter, which required consultation with Joanie. Sheesh, what a twerp!

Agreed.

I wondered last season if we would ever see Greg again, thinking he might not make it back from Vietnam. I was wrong about that. In any event, I suspect either we've seen the last of Greg because Joanie won't have him back, or we'll see him only briefly to visit the baby whom he believes is his.

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I watched Episode 3 again today with my grandson and am now convinced that the murder scene was Don's fever induced hallucination, not the real thing. First, Don Draper of all people would never leave a door unlocked in a New York City apartment. Second, at the end of Don's dream Andrea's leg was sticking out from under the bed but was no longer in sight the next morning. Finally, Don's wife came home within an hour or so after Andrea left and spent the night in bed with Don. Works for me.

I think the entire encounter, apart from bumping into her in the elevator at work, was a fever dream. In other words, Don's old flame never even showed up on his doorstep. He didn't actually turn her away the first time or kill her the second time because she was never there at all.

Take a look at this interesting article on Slate from Friday that discusses how a clever viewer noticed they used backwards footage, a la David Lynch, of Don getting out of bed to answer the doorbell when she first "arrives," to subtly suggest this was a dream. You also see the same footage in correct sequence after Don supposedly throws her out the back door. The extreme consequence from the second encounter in context suggests at least that Don was dreaming her return visit, and this backwards footage suggests that no visit at all took place outside his fever dream. (Am I the only one who watched the choking scene and was reminded of McMurphy strangling Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest?)

http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/...wpisrc=nextbox
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post #1379 of 2493 Old 04-15-2012, 02:59 PM
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Agreed.

I wondered last season if we would ever see Greg again, thinking he might not make it back from Vietnam. I was wrong about that. In any event, I suspect either we've seen the last of Greg because Joanie won't have him back, or we'll see him only briefly to visit the baby whom he believes is his.



I think the entire encounter, apart from bumping into her in the elevator at work, was a fever dream. In other words, Don's old flame never even showed up on his doorstep. He didn't actually turn her away the first time or kill her the second time because she was never there at all.

Take a look at this interesting article on Slate from Friday that discusses how a clever viewer noticed they used backwards footage, a la David Lynch, of Don getting out of bed to answer the doorbell when she first "arrives," to subtly suggest this was a dream. You also see the same footage in correct sequence after Don supposedly throws her out the back door. The extreme consequence from the second encounter in context suggests at least that Don was dreaming her return visit, and this backwards footage suggests that no visit at all took place outside his fever dream. (Am I the only one who watched the choking scene and was reminded of McMurphy strangling Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest?)
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/...wpisrc=nextbox

No, but you are apparently the only one obsessed enough to keep bringing it up.
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post #1380 of 2493 Old 04-15-2012, 06:13 PM
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I just re-watched last week's episode and knew that Andrea, Don's old flame he runs into in the elevator, looked familiar, but I couldn't place her. That's Mädchen Amick, the spectacularly gorgeous woman I've seen in a few other roles, most notably opposite James Spader in Dream Lover from 1993 (although I understand she had a regular role in David Lynch's Twin Peaks TV show). She was only 22 in that film, and you see all of her, if I recall correctly. The movie is good, but I'd watch it just for her and how achingly beautiful she is in it even if the movie were not any good.

Anyway, it just dawned on me that she gets choked to death in both Mad Men (via a dream) and in the movie. Ha. Now that's type casting, or more likely a little in-joke. Of course, the homage to the Nurse Ratched choking had to have been deliberate as well. The framing and angles of the shots were far too similar to be a coincidence.
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