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post #1411 of 2493 Old 04-19-2012, 04:47 AM
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Originally Posted by BoilerJim View Post

My first job out of college was also in the late sixties and my office experiences were apparently much different than yours. I worked in the home office of a "National" corporation where sexual interaction and discrimination were rampant. Seemingly, almost all of the managers and executives belonged to the "Good Old Boys Club." In fact, there was a memorable office Christmas Party complete with drinking where the Executive Secretary actually "went all the way" with one of the VP's on the Board Room conference table. How did we know this? They were so drunk they left the door open. I don't think even Don Draper would have been so inebriated as to forget that important detail.

The company also had an annual "stag party" each spring at the local conservation club complete with food, drinks of all kinds, gambling, and "movies." All salaried men were invited, so I'd go, eat a bit, sip a drink or two, and wait till about 10:00PM or so before I started gambling (when many of the others were drunk on their butts). I always went home with 4-5 times the amount of money I arrived with.

By the way, I also have a couple of pictures of myself in those hideous plaid sport jackets from that era. Johnny Carson I was not.

It wasn't until the mid-to-late 80's that "diversity training" and such started happening at work and some might say that the fun stopped.

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post #1412 of 2493 Old 04-19-2012, 07:35 AM
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It wasn't until the mid-to-late 80's that "diversity training" and such started happening at work and some might say that the fun stopped.

larry

That's right. Although there were no obvious sexual hookups in my workplace, nearly everybody abused alcohol and thought nothing of it. I was close to a number of people who drank as excessively as Don and Roger are shown as doing. Worse, sexist and racist attitudes, while pervasive, were so causal they weren't given much thought.
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post #1413 of 2493 Old 04-19-2012, 10:57 AM
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When the show ends, I wonder if the last scene will be a slowmo of Don falling through the air after having jumped out a window.
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post #1414 of 2493 Old 04-19-2012, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by KOA View Post

When the show ends, I wonder if the last scene will be a slowmo of Don falling through the air after having jumped out a window.

When I first saw the title sequence, I thought the same thing, only after watching most of the first season, I was convinced it was going to be Pete.
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post #1415 of 2493 Old 04-19-2012, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by KOA View Post

When the show ends, I wonder if the last scene will be a slowmo of Don falling through the air after having jumped out a window.

I doubt it, I think it is just a visual to show how Don's life is falling apart no matter HOW hard he tries to hold it together.
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post #1416 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 05:53 AM
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What do you base that belief on? I have not read of any instance of a senior partner of any firm beating up an employee during a business meeting. An incident like that would have been legend in the industry! The scene was ridiculous and the thought that Pete would just go back to work with a bruised face as if nothing had happened is even more ridiculous. If Pete were a real person, he would have quit, found a job with another firm, taken as many accounts as he could with him, told Advertising Age that a desperate SCDP partner had beaten him up in a routine accounts meeting, and oh, Don Draper is actually Dick Whitman who belongs in jail.

In today's society, that is what would have happened. In the 60's, there was no HR. HR is a relative new thing in business. Back in the 60's, you either stood up for your rights or got run over. Male or female. Look at Peggy and Joan. Goodyear treads are all over them. There wasn't anyone there to hold your hand as today. Back then the people who owned the company, ran it as they saw fit and if you didn't like it, you could leave. And that is the way it was. Where do you think all the regulations we have to abide by today came from? Stuff like this. Heck, look what happened to Ken Cosgrove by Roger in this episode. You can't do that now. Today Ken could take the company to court, and win. What Roger did could be termed harassment and intimidation by a court, since it was.

While there are no widespread reports of junior partners getting into fist fights with senior partners, (surely this DID happen somewhere or they wouldn't have included it in the story, the writers do their homework, we have seen that) having lived through the time, it is completely plausible something like that not only could happen, but DID happen, SOMEWHERE. And no, Pete would NOT want this to get out. He would be "damaged goods" so to speak and no other agency would want him after that. His ego is damaged at this point. He is regrouping. Professionally he would be viewed as having no "intestinal fortitude". Some old guy, and an Englishman at that, beat him up. (remember America was riding high with national pride due to the space program going to the Moon, we could do anything) Then you were "a man" first and you made up the rules until someone else bested you and then they made up the rules. Remember there was no HR to go running to and complain. It was truly dog eat dog then.

Pete stays. They keep him (he is bringing in the money) and he wants to stay. (his ego, he is a "partner", although just a junior) His comment in the elevator with Don at the end about "we are suppose to be friends" telegraphed he had been naive about his place in the firm (an equal which he never was) and wasn't going to do anything rash and it was sort of a mea culpa knowing Don would be the one who would decide if he was fired. Pete did play that one well. The one that really counted. Fade to black. This festers in Pete but he doesn't do anything overtly about it. He can't. He has no power. He knows it now. He also knows Lane trumps him. Politically, he is worse off than before. The only place (other than with hookers) he thought he had power, he learns he really doesn't.

Also, early in the episode, when Lane and the Jag exec were eating after the soccer game with their wives and they are talking about being "proper Englishmen", proper Englishmen back in England were known to have fistfights to solve problems in those days, (a modern day Dueling, what we call, "take it outside") hence the "Medieval" comment. It was a backhanded slap toward Lane, until Lane got the best of Pete, (Roger's later comment on backing Lane) then it was all OK! Typical ad man. So two faced!

I LOVE the writing on this show.

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post #1417 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 06:40 AM
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In 1970, I was promoted and transferred from Lafayette, IN to a branch office in Atlanta, GA. The old VP who ran the office had several rules that would be laughable today. Two of them were No Black Employees and No Pants Suits for Women (women were expected to wear skirts or dresses).

One day a black lady came to the front desk asking about employment. The secretary/receptionist said there were no positions available. The black lady asked for a job application form so she could fill it out for future consideration. The receptionist tried to talk her out of it, but the black lady insisted, so she was given the form. When the lady left, the VP had been in his office and heard the entire conversation. He fired the receptionist on the spot.

Another time, one of my employees asked about the rule banning pants suits. I went to the VP and he said that his position was still the same. So, my employee telephoned 100 companies at random over several days during her lunch hour to find out if they allowed their female employees to wear pant suits. Over 90 of 100 did. She reported back to me and asked me to take the info to the VP. He made me fire her and said if I didn't, he would fire me. Luckily, I only worked in that office for a little over a year before being transferred back "home."
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post #1418 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

In today's society, that is what would have happened. In the 60's, there was no HR. HR is a relative new thing in business. Back in the 60's, you either stood up for your rights or got run over. Male or female. Look at Peggy and Joan. Goodyear treads are all over them. There wasn't anyone there to hold your hand as today. Back then the people who owned the company, ran it as they saw fit and if you didn't like it, you could leave. And that is the way it was. Where do you think all the regulations we have to abide by today came from? Stuff like this. Heck, look what happened to Ken Cosgrove by Roger in this episode. You can't do that now. Today Ken could take the company to court, and win. What Roger did could be termed harassment and intimidation by a court, since it was.

While there are no widespread reports of junior partners getting into fist fights with senior partners, (surely this DID happen somewhere or they wouldn't have included it in the story, the writers do their homework, we have seen that) having lived through the time, it is completely plausible something like that not only could happen, but DID happen, SOMEWHERE. And no, Pete would NOT want this to get out. He would be "damaged goods" so to speak and no other agency would want him after that. His ego is damaged at this point. He is regrouping. Professionally he would be viewed as having no "intestinal fortitude". Some old guy, and an Englishman at that, beat him up. (remember America was riding high with national pride due to the space program going to the Moon, we could do anything) Then you were "a man" first and you made up the rules until someone else bested you and then they made up the rules. Remember there was no HR to go running to and complain. It was truly dog eat dog then.

Pete stays. They keep him (he is bringing in the money) and he wants to stay. (his ego, he is a "partner", although just a junior) His comment in the elevator with Don at the end about "we are suppose to be friends" telegraphed he had been naive about his place in the firm (an equal which he never was) and wasn't going to do anything rash and it was sort of a mea culpa knowing Don would be the one who would decide if he was fired. Pete did play that one well. The one that really counted. Fade to black. This festers in Pete but he doesn't do anything overtly about it. He can't. He has no power. He knows it now. He also knows Lane trumps him. Politically, he is worse off than before. The only place (other than with hookers) he thought he had power, he learns he really doesn't.

Also, early in the episode, when Lane and the Jag exec were eating after the soccer game with their wives and they are talking about being "proper Englishmen", proper Englishmen back in England were known to have fistfights to solve problems in those days, (a modern day Dueling, what we call, "take it outside") hence the "Medieval" comment. It was a backhanded slap toward Lane, until Lane got the best of Pete, (Roger's later comment on backing Lane) then it was all OK! Typical ad man. So two faced!

I LOVE the writing on this show.

+1! Education, station, and success do not guarantee that fisticuffs won't ensue. For example, many years ago two successful lawyer brothers, one of them a classmate of mine, whose relationship had been strained for years got into a fistfight on the steps of the Creek County Courthouse in Sapulpa, OK. Those guys were colorful, to say the least. Somebody should write a book about them or, better yet, two books, one about each of them.

I have heard it said of British gentlemen, "They talk like girls but fight like wildcats."
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post #1419 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 08:35 AM
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Heck, look what happened to Ken Cosgrove by Roger in this episode. You can't do that now. Today Ken could take the company to court, and win. What Roger did could be termed harassment and intimidation by a court, since it was.

I agree with everything you wrote except for this part. Roger didn't harass or intimidate him. He threatened that he'd fire him due to lack of commitment. Today, Ken would still be classified as an employee at-will. He could be fired for any reason (with the exception of legally recognized forms of discrimination).

I've worked for large consulting firms where people have been reprimanded for only working 70 hours a week when they were expected to work 80 hours a week.
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post #1420 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by KOA View Post

When the show ends, I wonder if the last scene will be a slowmo of Don falling through the air after having jumped out a window.

"Art of the Title" : Mad Men Opening Sequence

http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/09/19/mad-men/

I think its a homage to Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo and North By Northwest.
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post #1421 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 09:19 AM
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I'm thinking that the last two seasons (the ones yet to come) will revolve around 1968 and 1969, respectively.

1968, was, well, 1968 (and all that happened in it). My only memory, really, was of a protracted teacher's strike in NYC.

1969 was a lot more uplifting, especially in the NYC area, and especially sports-wise. We had the Jets winning Super Bowl III in January, man landing on the moon in July, and the whole craze in October with the Mets winning the the World Series.
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post #1422 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by PiratesCove View Post

"Art of the Title" : Mad Men Opening Sequence

http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/09/19/mad-men/

I think its a homage to Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo and North By Northwest.

According to the link you provided it is just based off of Wiener's orignal basic idea of "a man walks into his office, sets down his briefcase, and jumps out a window".

The creators make no mention of Hitchcock.
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post #1423 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

While there are no widespread reports of junior partners getting into fist fights with senior partners, (surely this DID happen somewhere or they wouldn't have included it in the story, the writers do their homework, we have seen that) having lived through the time, it is completely plausible something like that not only could happen, but DID happen, SOMEWHERE.

You saw this happen on a fictional television drama therefore it simply must have happened in real life?

You have great faith in the idiot box.

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post #1424 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by blitzen102 View Post

According to the link you provided it is just based off of Wiener's orignal basic idea of "a man walks into his office, sets down his briefcase, and jumps out a window".

The creators make no mention of Hitchcock.

Right, I think its a homage to Hitchcock's title sequences for Vertigo and North By Northwest.
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post #1425 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by humdinger70 View Post

I'm thinking that the last two seasons (the ones yet to come) will revolve around 1968 and 1969, respectively.

1968, was, well, 1968 (and all that happened in it). My only memory, really, was of a protracted teacher's strike in NYC.

1969 was a lot more uplifting, especially in the NYC area, and especially sports-wise. We had the Jets winning Super Bowl III in January, man landing on the moon in July, and the whole craze in October with the Mets winning the the World Series.

1968 was a year of many important events, Tet Offensive: Vietnam, Major Anti-Vietnam War demonstrations, RFK and MLK assasinations, Black Power Movement, Olympics in Mexico, Woman's Liberation, Democratic Convention in Chicago, Riots, Nixon elected President, NASA Lunar orbits...the list goes on and on.
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post #1426 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by KOA View Post

When the show ends, I wonder if the last scene will be a slowmo of Don falling through the air after having jumped out a window.

Hey, hey, hey! I've been saying that to my wife since the first episode!!! There have been other hints along the way (sorry, can't think of them offhand) that it will end that way.
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post #1427 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by KOA View Post

When the show ends, I wonder if the last scene will be a slowmo of Don falling through the air after having jumped out a window.

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Hey, hey, hey! I've been saying that to my wife since the first episode!!! There have been other hints along the way (sorry, can't think of them offhand) that it will end that way.

If the show does end with Don taking a high dive out of a high-rise window, it couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Have been rewatching Season 4 on BD and was reminded of the best summary of Don's character I can recall. After Don serially humiliates his secretary, Allison, by refusing to acknowledge their sexual encounter in his apartment, Allison quits her job and as she is storming out of Don's office says to him, "You are not a nice man!"
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post #1428 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by blitzen102 View Post

According to the link you provided it is just based off of Wiener's orignal basic idea of "a man walks into his office, sets down his briefcase, and jumps out a window".

The creators make no mention of Hitchcock.

Nor do they mention Saul Bass, but he conceived of and created the title sequences for those two Hitchcock films, and nobody else make opening titles anything like that until Saul Bass came along. Go here, enter Saul Bass, and you'll see still images of many logos and posters he created:
http://www.google.com/imghp?hl=en&tab=ii

As one of the Mad Men title designers said about their own work: "I'm a huge Saul Bass fan, but Matthew Weiner said, 'I don't want it to look like the 60s.' I like to think that it's kind of an update of Saul Bass."

http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/09/19/mad-men/

Although he died in 1996, Bass's influence lives on, e.g., the enjoyable opening titles from Catch Me If You Can (2002):
http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/08...me-if-you-can/

The designers of that title sequence were pleased to be compared to Saul Bass. Their comment about Bass is equally applicable to the Mad Men title sequence: "We feel the genius of Saul Bass was to find an idea linked with the music. For example, the Carmen Jones title sequence is great because it's simply a burning rose for one minute, with a musical score that delivers just the right emotion."

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post #1429 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 01:46 PM
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Hey, hey, hey! I've been saying that to my wife since the first episode!!! There have been other hints along the way (sorry, can't think of them offhand) that it will end that way.

I hope it DOESN'T end that way. It is way too boring and too easily predictable.
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post #1430 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 01:52 PM
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I hope it DOESN'T end that way. It is way too boring and too easily predictable.

Well, Don is still guilty of a felony (treason?) and if he sees no way out...
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post #1431 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 01:57 PM
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Well, Don is still guilty of a felony (treason?) and if he sees no way out...

I'd rather see him busted for identy theft (and possibly other crimes) and left completely broke mentally and fiscally -- and with no friends or anyone that cares about him anymore.

...stuck in jail -- and back to things being as bad (or worse) as they were in his childhood.
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post #1432 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 02:10 PM
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I'd rather see him busted for identy theft (and possibly other crimes) and left completely broke mentally and fiscally -- and with no friends or anyone that cares about him anymore.

...stuck in jail -- and back to things being as bad (or worse) as they were in his childhood.

Maybe we could just send him to Holsten's.
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post #1433 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 04:38 PM
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Well, Don is still guilty of a felony (treason?) and if he sees no way out...

It wouldn't be treason. It would be desertion, which is one of the most serious offenses under the UCMJ (Article 85). If it occurs during wartime, as Don's offense did, it is punishable by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, if convicted. If convicted, it is extremely unlikely that even a grizzled old military panel consisting solely of combat veterans would direct that Don/Dick be put to death. The US Army has executed only one soldier for desertion since the Civil War -- Private Eddie Slovik during WWII. His sentence was ordered while the Battle of the Bulge was taking place, and fears of desertion becoming widespread in the European Theater played a part in Gen. Eisenhower's decision to make him an example to others.

Nevertheless, there is no statute of limitations for the offense, so Don will live his life under the cloud of being tried for desertion if found out. His fears of being discovered, arrested, and tried are not unfounded. Since he was never properly discharged, he is still a member of the US Army and subject to recall to active service in order to be arrested and tried, or perhaps offered non-judicial punishment and an other than honorable discharge. At the very least, I suspect he would face two months' confinement, an OTH discharge, and a very public humiliation and shaming. If he elected to go to trial, he might get one or two years' confinement and a dishonorable discharge. Suffice it to say he would lose everything he has in his current life.
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post #1434 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 05:06 PM
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You saw this happen on a fictional television drama therefore it simply must have happened in real life?

You have great faith in the idiot box.

No, I was alive in 1966 and remember the time and the culture and how people were. The society of that time were not sheaple, like today. They took matters into their own hands. The real reason we can't go back to the Moon today is not due to technology, but due to the lack of will and lack of guts to try. Today someone might die so let's don't do it. In the 60's it was mostly guts and technology that wasn't quite prime time yet. Simple as that. Our society today is made of mostly lazy people who want things given to them. "What! You WANT me to work for it?" That was NOT the thinking back in the 60's. We could do anything, and pretty much did. That mental state doesn't exist today.

Just remember, you can't apply 2012 morality in 1966. It doesn't work. Just like the morality of 1966 is so revolting to us now.

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post #1435 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 05:19 PM
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I agree with everything you wrote except for this part. Roger didn't harass or intimidate him. He threatened that he'd fire him due to lack of commitment. Today, Ken would still be classified as an employee at-will. He could be fired for any reason (with the exception of legally recognized forms of discrimination).

I've worked for large consulting firms where people have been reprimanded for only working 70 hours a week when they were expected to work 80 hours a week.

Respectfully, that is all Roger does now, is intimidate and harass and cause trouble. No one else cared that Ken wrote on the side, as long as his work didn't suffer. There is no evidence of that. Roger cared because Roger wasn't the center of attention. He is aging out. He knows it. "It is a young man's game." and Roger is a getting to be an old curmudgeon with his mid life crisis coming to an end. He is jealous of Don who he thinks has the perfect life. Roger is miserable. That is what this whole season has been about for Roger.

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post #1436 of 2493 Old 04-20-2012, 06:57 PM
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As wonderful as this season has been, I want to give kudos to the Season 4 finale which I watched again tonight. The scene depicting the phone call in which Don tells Dr. Faye that he is engaged, and breaks her heart, was wonderful. After Don refused to tell Faye who his fiancé was, she said, "I hope she knows that you only like the beginnings of things." Indeed! It's clear to me at least that a number of the many, many women who Don disappointed seemed to understand him better than he understood himself.
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post #1437 of 2493 Old 04-21-2012, 11:11 PM
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Another great episode.

I really enjoy John Slattery's direction, in particular for his own character Roger.

The fight seemed quite plausible to me, and seeing Pete get what everyone thought he deserved was pretty funny. And it's not like all Pete's issues sprung up at once. They simply came to a head on that day.

Lane kissing Joan will probably be remembered as the beginning of their relationship moving to the next level. She liked it, even after he said he humiliated himself for the second time that day, she deftly redirected his feelings to that of pride. How do you not love that woman?

Best Line - “He was caught with chewing gum in his pubis!”

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post #1438 of 2493 Old 04-21-2012, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PiratesCove View Post

"Art of the Title" : Mad Men Opening Sequence

http://www.artofthetitle.com/2011/09/19/mad-men/

I think its a homage to Alfred Hitchcock's Vertigo and North By Northwest.

Yes, and Saul Bass.

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post #1439 of 2493 Old 04-21-2012, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by scowl View Post

You saw this happen on a fictional television drama therefore it simply must have happened in real life?

You have great faith in the idiot box.

No, stuff like this happened all the time. All the time. Trust me.

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post #1440 of 2493 Old 04-22-2012, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

Respectfully, that is all Roger does now, is intimidate and harass and cause trouble. No one else cared that Ken wrote on the side, as long as his work didn't suffer. There is no evidence of that. Roger cared because Roger wasn't the center of attention. He is aging out. He knows it. "It is a young man's game." and Roger is a getting to be an old curmudgeon with his mid life crisis coming to an end. He is jealous of Don who he thinks has the perfect life. Roger is miserable. That is what this whole season has been about for Roger.

I got the impression that Roger was jealous because Ken's writing was successful while Roger's book was by and large a bomb. But yeah he knows he's aging and fast becoming completely irrelevant.
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