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post #61 of 384 Old 03-18-2008, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowMeow View Post

In fairness, you will always run up against the people who cannot differentiate HD from 16:9. Sometimes it is just easier to surrender to the dumb.

So, instead of pan-n-scan to get widescreen movies to fill the 4:3 screen, now we are getting chop-n-crop to get 4:3 to fill 16:9. That just plain sucks.

If they start releasing 4:3 shows on Blu-Ray that way and don't spell that out in big bold letters on the package, or indicate such on sites like Amazon, I will return said release as defective.

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post #62 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 01:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Looks like those screen caps might have been from an episode that was originally finished in SD, and now re-done in HD (cropped). It's pretty soft compared to the ones that were actually produced in HD from the beginning. Below are a couple of pics from one of the episodes that aired on Monday -- I believe this was originally done in HD -- it's from the '00 season. Framing looks right and it's sharper.



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post #63 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

1) I don't care for the show to start with and
2) It is in widescreen presentation, instead of the OAR. Chopping off the top and bottom to make it widescreen is just plain dumb.
If the production company isn't going to do OAR, they shouldn't even bother.

Everybody Loves Raymond ran for 9 (!) seasons. The last 6 seasons were done in HD, the first 3 in SD. So 2/3rds of the episodes that will be shown were originally done for HD. According to the article linked to earlier in this thread, the creator and exec producer of the show was directly involved in the transfer and conversion of the episodes from the first 3 seasons. So someone who cares about the show was involved in the transfer to HD. How much the cropping to 16:9 hurts really depends on how the show was framed and how much room they left for overscan. Since this show is a sitcom that involves interaction of the family members set in a house, it probably has a lot of wide shots showing a group of people that can be cropped without much damage. But we will get top of heads and lower legs chopped off.

If people can identify the episode title, then the episode can be looked up on tv.com to see if it was from the first 3 seasons or not.

The question is whether cropping to 16:9 is too much. The compromise they did with the cropping to ~14:9 for Hogan Heroes on HDNet worked pretty well from what I saw of those episodes. They had a LOT of overscan protection for that show. But because the masses think HD means 16:9 widescreen for TV shows, cropping to 16:9 is going to be common, if it is not already being widely done. The good news is that Star Trek: TOS was left in OAR and reportedly Seinfeld was redone in OAR for HD.
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post #64 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

1) I don't care for the show to start with and
2) It is in widescreen presentation, instead of the OAR. Chopping off the top and bottom to make it widescreen is just plain dumb.

If the production company isn't going to do OAR, they shouldn't even bother.

This show went HD very early on, so only a few seasons, from eary in its run, had to be reformatted. That gives it a more consistent look.
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post #65 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 11:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

If people can identify the episode title, then the episode can be looked up on tv.com to see if it was from the first 3 seasons or not.

I believe those first screen caps are from episode 0110, "Raybert," which first aired on 11/26/2001 ... meaning it should have been originally done in HD. My caps are from an earlier episode -- 9915, "Robert's Rodeo," which first aired on 2/7/2000.
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post #66 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

I believe those first screen caps are from episode 0110, "Raybert," which first aired on 11/26/2001 ... meaning it should have been originally done in HD. My caps are from an earlier episode -- 9915, "Robert's Rodeo," which first aired on 2/7/2000.

A check at tv.com shows that Robert's Rodeo was episode 85 from season 4 which started in the fall of 2000. So this would be the 1st season originally shot in HD. Got to give CBS credit, many of their prime-time scripted series went HD pretty early. Here were are 7 and a half years later and most of the prime time reality/game shows are still SD. Long slow conversion process, but we will get to all new programming and news in HD eventually.
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post #67 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by NYMan View Post

Has that been done for all the sitcoms from the 1990's, or just Seinfeld?

I'd really like to see Friends in HD aswell.

Just Seinfeld. It's worth the expense since it will make the money back. Few other shows have that potential.
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post #68 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

A check at tv.com shows that Robert's Rodeo was episode 85 from season 4 which started in the fall of 2000.

I got my info on the air date from tv.com too -- but when I look there, that episode is listed as #88, from season 4, which started in the fall of 1999.
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post #69 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

I got my info on the air date from tv.com too -- but when I look there, that episode is listed as #88, from season 4, which started in the fall of 1999.

My bad. When writing after finding the episodes, I went back & picked up the Robert in What's With Robert episode #85 which first aired Jan 10, 2000. The correct answer to Robert's Rodeo is episode #88 which first aired Feb. 7, 2000 which would be the fall of 1999 to spring, 2000 season. This show switched to HD in the fall of 1999? Impressive. Wonder how many CBS stations were on air with a reasonable power digital signal and HD by then?

Anyway, anyone seen any reports on what the next syndicated show to be made available in HD might be?
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post #70 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, thanks for clearing that up. As you can see, I was a little confused!

I never watched this show when it was on CBS -- and only watch it now because I get paid to do so -- however, I do recall this being one of the very first shows to go HD, and the fall of '99 sounds about right.
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post #71 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afiggatt View Post

Everybody Loves Raymond ran for 9 (!) seasons. The last 6 seasons were done in HD, the first 3 in SD. So 2/3rds of the episodes that will be shown were originally done for HD.

Like I said, didn't care for the show, so didn't know that. Comments based upon original 4:3 content being crop-n-chopped for 16:9.

Yes, for many people HD=16:9. For me, HD can mean 4:3 pillar bar'd into the HD 16:9 frame and I don't mean upconvert NTSC SD material either, I do mean remastered from the original film. If orignally shot on NTSC video tape, then the DVD releases are good enough.

Quote:


The good news is that Star Trek: TOS was left in OAR and reportedly Seinfeld was redone in OAR for HD.

Unfortunately ST:TOS was done HD-DVD. Maybe they'll redo it on Blu-Ray and reduce the price - A LOT. Paramount has always overpriced Trek product.

As for Seinfeld, personnally I could case less. I never got into that show. I hate it even more since the local affiliate airs it between the late local news and Nightline. While I know it isn't the show's fault, but I still blame it on that series

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post #72 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spwace View Post

This show went HD very early on, so only a few seasons, from eary in its run, had to be reformatted.

No, there isn't a rule that says 4:3 material has to be chopped-n-cropped for 16:9.

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post #73 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

Oand only watch it now because I get paid to do so

I don't think you really have to sit down and watch it while it is airing. You have better things to do and hopefully someone in master control that has the smarts to get you when something isn't right.

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post #74 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 07:14 PM
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As I recall, "Raymond" was produced in HD for all seasons except the first season. That means that with the likely exception of the first season, the HD broadcasts should be OAR.

Oh, and in the running count of where "Raymond" is in HD: Dallas/Fort Worth doesn't make the cut, as Fox-owned KDFI is showing the "Raymond" reruns in standard definition only.
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post #75 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

I don't think you really have to sit down and watch it while it is airing. You have better things to do and hopefully someone in master control that has the smarts to get you when something isn't right.

Uh, on many nights *I* am in Master Control .... like right now.

BTW, it just occurred to me that this topic is (so far) simply ASSUMING that the early Raymonds will be cropped to 16:9 -- since none of those episodes have aired yet, nobody knows how they will be presented. All episodes aired this week have been from the HD seasons.
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post #76 of 384 Old 03-19-2008, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

No, there isn't a rule that says 4:3 material has to be chopped-n-cropped for 16:9.

Well, I realize that. What I meant is the first few seasons were the only ones shot in 4:3 and thus all of the other seasons were shot in 16:9 and would not require any reformatting. The decision to of how to present the 4:3 seasons is up to the studio.
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post #77 of 384 Old 03-20-2008, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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I found that we still had the SD version of episode 0110 on our server, so I grabbed an image that matched the HD image that was posted earlier in this thread. Check out the two side-by-side and see that there's nothing cropped off in the top or bottom on the HD version, and in fact it shows more on the sides as you would expect:

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post #78 of 384 Old 03-20-2008, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

I found that we still had the SD version of episode 0110 on our server, so I grabbed an image that matched the HD image that was posted earlier in this thread. Check out the two side-by-side and see that there's nothing cropped off in the top or bottom on the HD version, and in fact it shows more on the sides as you would expect:


When CBS began with the HD presentation of their scripted shows (Raymond started in 2001 as mentioned above), center-cutting is whow they created their SD programming. I remember an episode of "Yes, Dear", where a viewer won an on-screen appearance, and they used the "if you were watching in HD, you'd see him" bit.

It will be interesting to see how they handled the first few seasons, when those are aired.
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post #79 of 384 Old 03-20-2008, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I guess I should have mentioned that the point of my post (with pic) was to dispute this statement from "mrvideo" earlier in the thread:

"It is in widescreen presentation, instead of the OAR. Chopping off the top and bottom to make it widescreen is just plain dumb."

I can't find any post that claims Raymond started HD in 2001 -- all evidence suggests it actually began in the fall of 1999. I posted screen caps from a '99 season episode earlier in this thread -- check the framing -- it's 16:9, protected for 4:3, indicating that it was HD in '99.
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post #80 of 384 Old 03-20-2008, 10:46 AM
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Maybe this will help:

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/art...html?q=raymond

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The views expressed here are my own and do not necessarily represent those of the FOX,ABC,CBS,or CW Networks,MeTv, my employer or its parent company. Nor my wife for that matter!
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post #81 of 384 Old 03-20-2008, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Bob! This thread has had me feeling like I was in the Twilight Zone! On a related note, looks like a first-season episode is scheduled for tonight (#22 - "Why Are We Here?") so we will see whether it is a pan-n-tilt job.
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post #82 of 384 Old 03-20-2008, 10:57 AM
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If converting old TV shows to HD is so expensive, how in the heck could Voom afford to do such a fantastic job on "Fliipper" and "Thunderbirds," which look stunning to me, but must have an audience of about 13 people?
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post #83 of 384 Old 03-20-2008, 11:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Easy answer to that: Those old shows were all finished on FILM -- that is, the final product can be put up on an HD telecine and transferred to an HD tape format. Shows like "Raymond," although shot on FILM, were edited on VIDEO, thus there is no edited film version that can be transferred. To do these shows, they have to find all of the original film, find the right takes, transfer it to HD, then re-edit the show. As you can imagine, that is a considerable effort.
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post #84 of 384 Old 03-20-2008, 01:34 PM
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As bad as cropped is, it sure beats the crap out of scretchovision!

How can we say "the digital transition is complete" when thousands of low power stations are still broadcasting in analog?
LOW POWER ANALOG NEEDS TO DIE NOW!!!
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post #85 of 384 Old 03-21-2008, 12:31 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, an episode from season 1 of "Raymond" aired tonight (episode #22, aka #9922 "Why Are We Here?"), and the results were quite interesting. It appears as though someone was very forward thinking when these were shot, as the HD version was true 16:9 -- no cropping or other funny business.

The SD version was NEW, downconverted from the HD version (this, according to the slate on the program). While framed slightly different from the original SD version, the video quality of the new SD version is leaps and bounds beyond the original.

Below are some screen caps, though all downsized for faster loading -- they're intended only to show the framing -- not PQ -- though you can still see how much better the new SD is compared to the old.

Original SD:



New SD:



HD:

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post #86 of 384 Old 03-21-2008, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

OK, an episode from season 1 of "Raymond" aired tonight (episode #22, aka #9922 "Why Are We Here?"), and the results were quite interesting. It appears as though someone was very forward thinking when these were shot, as the HD version was true 16:9 -- no cropping or other funny business.

The SD version was NEW, downconverted from the HD version (this, according to the slate on the program). While framed slightly different from the original SD version, the video quality of the new SD version is leaps and bounds beyond the original.

Below are some screen caps, though all downsized for faster loading -- they're intended only to show the framing -- not PQ -- though you can still see how much better the new SD is compared to the old.

Thanks for the screenshots. Hopefully this clears that issue up once and for all. And good work by CBS and company for the great transfers!
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post #87 of 384 Old 03-21-2008, 11:27 AM
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Any reasonable chance of TBS showing "Raymond" in real HD vs. the Scretchovision crap anytime soon?
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post #88 of 384 Old 03-21-2008, 11:30 AM
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For someone with no clue what this means could someone put it in simplest terms?
Just saw Two and Half Men and that is one of a very few shows I like.
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post #89 of 384 Old 03-21-2008, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mazman49 View Post

Any reasonable chance of TBS showing "Raymond" in real HD vs. the Scretchovision crap anytime soon?

Any reasonable chance of TBS showing ANY real HD soon?


As much as it should happen...it won't...not anytime soon


...TBS HD...such a waste of time and effort...
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post #90 of 384 Old 03-21-2008, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E-A-G-L-E-S View Post

For someone with no clue what this means

And I'm someone who has no clue what you're referring to with "this".

(except that it must be something to do with this thread...)
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