CBS Mountain Time Zone Primetime Explained - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 49 Old 08-27-2007, 11:58 PM
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Hah, you guys in normal MTZ markets have it easy. Arizona doesn't change for DST so we're 1 hour delayed in the Winter and 2 in the Summer. All the program guides went crazy for a couple days this year because of the early DST. Network stations stayed the same relative to the local time, but shifted an hour relative to the feed. The PBS station bought a delay server so they matched the other networks, but the program guide was still broken since it was mainly based on the network feed which was offset an hour. Cable channels stay the same relative to the West feed we normally get, which means that all the network shows air an hour earlier (10/9c shows air at 11 in the Winter and 10 in the Summer).
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post #32 of 49 Old 08-28-2007, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

Any info on if MTZ Fox stations are delaying the east HD and if so how it's being done? Are they re-encoding or delaying the stream using an ASI/ SMPTE 310 server?

FOX provides 3 synced SD and HD feeds for primetime. ETZ/CTZ, MTZ and PTZ so there is no need to tape delay in any continental US time zone.

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post #33 of 49 Old 08-28-2007, 07:57 AM
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As mentioned earlier in this thread:
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Originally Posted by BKMaggert View Post

You say NBC and Fox use a special MTZ feed, but ALL four Denver channels (ABC, CBS, Fox, & NBC) start their primetime early. All do it by MORE than a minute!

Does Fox start the MTZ net feeds early? If not, it appears that some MTZ stations are delaying the east feed. Recording the ABC, CBS and NBC HD feeds as baseband video with a re-encode can be accomplished with little if any degradation as the network bitrates are higher than ATSC, but the Fox HD net rates are already at ATSC rates. Delaying the stream itself would avoid that problem. Also, do Fox stations have the ability to select which stream is demuxed by the splicer? I thought that was under TOC's control.
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post #34 of 49 Old 08-28-2007, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timpanogos View Post

The Mountain Time Zone frequently gets programming not appropraite for the hours in which it is broadcast. The sun isn't even down and the networks run programming appropriate for after 10:00PM on the east coast, and it is only 8:00PM out west. An example was the old NYPD Blue program. Primetime bare butts and many parents were pissed. The network could care less. Not enough eyeballs out in the MTZ to be concerned about, and the Clinton FCC turned a blind eye to it.

Perhaps they turned a blind eye to it because as a parent it's YOUR job to make sure your kids aren't watching tv unsupervised after 9 PM, not theirs. What are your kids doing watching TV unsupervised after 9PM anyway if they are not old enough to handle some butt crack?
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post #35 of 49 Old 08-28-2007, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

As mentioned earlier in this thread:

Does Fox start the MTZ net feeds early? If not, it appears that some MTZ stations are delaying the east feed.

Good question. Don't know.

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Also, do Fox stations have the ability to select which stream is demuxed by the splicer? I thought that was under TOC's control.

No stations do not. Well they aren't suppose to but if you are smart enough, to record the ETZ feed for MTZ playback, there is a way, just not "live", but you can't do it as the splicer is packaged and installed at stations. It takes some "extra stuff" to make it happen.

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post #36 of 49 Old 08-28-2007, 10:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

Also, do Fox stations have the ability to select which stream is demuxed by the splicer? I thought that was under TOC's control.

To add to foxeng's post, I can also vouch for the fact that the Fox network IRDs are exclusively under the remote control of Fox TOC. This was a bit of a surprise to all of us when we took a Fox affiliate under our wings, as with CBS network equipment, the network is capable of controlling our receivers remotely, but we're also able to change the receivers manually ourselves if necessary.

Also, as a follow-up to another topic floating around in this thread, last night at work I pulled up the standard def. NBC MTZ prime feed, and it does, in fact, start at exactly 19:00:00 MT. That said, if your local MTZ NBC affiliate is starting primetime earlier than 19:00 straight up, they're delaying the eastern/central feed instead of taking the mountain feed live.

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post #37 of 49 Old 08-28-2007, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bars&Tone View Post

To add to foxeng's post, I can also vouch for the fact that the Fox network IRDs are exclusively under the remote control of Fox TOC. This was a bit of a surprise to all of us when we took a Fox affiliate under our wings, as with CBS network equipment, the network is capable of controlling our receivers remotely, but we're also able to change the receivers manually ourselves if necessary.

The difference is that CBS uses a mezzanine system where the HD video and audio are decoded to baseband for subsequent ATSC encoding by the station. Fox's HD network stream is meant to be directly broadcast without decoding. There's advantages to each system, including Fox's ability to route commercial and promo stems on a station basis. Fox also has the the advantage of the bandwidth efficiency with ~16Mbs HD streams, but I think that will fade as MPEG 4 becomes used for the other networks' fronthauls.

Maybe I missed it, but did the CBS MTZ station delay the HD from baseband or from ASI via the IRD? I'm assuming it was from baseband.
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post #38 of 49 Old 08-28-2007, 10:57 AM
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I live in Albuquerque, and I can say from the viewers perspective this "mountain minute" and having live SD feeds and a delayed HD feed really sucks. I have two tuners in my htpc and it plays havoc trying not to have a conflict because some channels start a minute earlier than others. ABC-KOAT seems to start a minute early sometimes but not always (however most ABC shows start with a preview of last week anyways), at least I can count on CBS-KRQE to always start a minute early.. except it seemed a few times the 7PM show started 90 seconds early!

Any time theres a frost warning or high wind warning or anything in some rural county anywhere in the state the affiliate goes to the SD feed for sometimes 20 minutes of an hour long show with their giant graphic. Especially KOAT, which has had the audio drop for as long as 10 minutes after switching back from HD.

NBC-KOB has had the worst problems with HD programming, i'm surprised to learn that NBC sends a live HD feed. We've still yet to see a Conan O'brien broadcast here in HDTV.
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post #39 of 49 Old 08-28-2007, 11:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

Maybe I missed it, but did the CBS MTZ station delay the HD from baseband or from ASI via the IRD? I'm assume it was from baseband.

At the CBS MTZ affiliate which I assisted, CBS HD was fed to the video server and the delay server via HD-SDI, and the CBS SD was fed to the video server and its delay server as SDI. This allowed the network signals to easily be viewed on a monitor or routed elsewhere if necessary.

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post #40 of 49 Old 08-28-2007, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lokar View Post

This brought back a lot of bad memories as I did the hour primetime delay thing for an ABC affiliate in Idaho for 6 years in the early '90s on 3/4" tape.

That's nothing.

Right before I started we not only had to do our own NBC delay, but we were also delaying for two stations in Idaho, KIFI and KTVB (I think those were the call letters), then microwaving it up to them.

We had 3 Ampex 1 inch machines taking care of our delay, and 2 dedicated for Idaho Delay.
Of course, our on-air was of topmost importance, thus the 3 machines to give us some overlap time to rewind the next hour.
Idaho wasn't so lucky, and had to get what we gave them.
Back in those days, local breaks hit at the top and bottom of the hour, none of this "seamless transition to next show" stuff the Networks are so fond of lately, which gave us some rewind time.
Tape ops knew exactly how long it took an Ampex machine to rewind an hour of tape, and got quite adept at knowing exactly when to push rewind and when to push play.

The two machines "in the corner" were still labeled Idaho Delay when I started.

I believe we were doing this on Ampex 2inch Quads before we got the 1inch machines.

AFAIK, the NBC Mountain Feed started within the year prior to me getting hired.


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post #41 of 49 Old 08-29-2007, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timpanogos View Post

The Mountain Time Zone frequently gets programming not appropraite for the hours in which it is broadcast. The sun isn't even down and the networks run programming appropriate for after 10:00PM on the east coast, and it is only 8:00PM out west.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GutBomb View Post

Perhaps they turned a blind eye to it because as a parent it's YOUR job to make sure your kids aren't watching tv unsupervised after 9 PM, not theirs.

He wrote that 10 PM broadcasts start at 8 PM, not 9 PM.
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post #42 of 49 Old 08-30-2007, 10:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

The difference is that CBS uses a mezzanine system where the HD video and audio are decoded to baseband for subsequent ATSC encoding by the station.

I'm still of the mind that one can't truly experience the beauty of CBS' 1080i HD signal unless they've viewed it on an HD monitor connected directly to the output of a CBS HD receiver via HD-SDI. Granted, I think our ATSC signal looks great at home, but seeing the CBS HD signal at work in its purest form is even more amazing.

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post #43 of 49 Old 08-30-2007, 11:27 AM
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You should see how good it looks in the truck, before any compression.

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post #44 of 49 Old 08-30-2007, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QZ1 View Post

He wrote that 10 PM broadcasts start at 8 PM, not 9 PM.

It doesn't though, 10PM eastern starts 9PM central and mountain.
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post #45 of 49 Old 09-19-2007, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

The difference is that CBS uses a mezzanine system where the HD video and audio are decoded to baseband for subsequent ATSC encoding by the station.

To expand a little on this particular topic, our CBS HD receiver spits out HD-SDI video (aka SMPTE 292M) at a data rate of 1.485 Gbit/second. Comparing that to the 19.39 Mbit/second data rate of ATSC, you can see that CBS affiliates need to do a fair amount of compression of the CBS HD signal as part of the ATSC encoding process - and that's not to mention any additional compression that might be done to compensate for multicasting on the digital channel. Even so, I'd say that CBS still takes the cake in terms of HD signal quality at the ATSC level, although I'm admittedly a little biased

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post #46 of 49 Old 09-19-2007, 12:13 PM
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can you give our local fox affiliate here in hawaii a call? they could use a few tips. they have been trying to fix their HD recording capabilities and for over a year they have said it would be ready in "a couple of weeks"

we get live HD programming like football but no HD primetime. don't tell them about the mountain minute though.
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post #47 of 49 Old 09-19-2007, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bars&Tone View Post

To expand a little on this particular topic, our CBS HD receiver spits out HD-SDI video (aka SMPTE 292M) at a data rate of 1.485 Gbit/second. Comparing that to the 19.39 Mbit/second data rate of ATSC, you can see that CBS affiliates need to do a fair amount of compression of the CBS HD signal as part of the ATSC encoding process - and that's not to mention any additional compression that might be done to compensate for multicasting on the digital channel. Even so, I'd say that CBS still takes the cake in terms of HD signal quality at the ATSC level, although I'm admittedly a little biased

However your CBS HD Receiver doesn't get fed HD-SDI rate video at 1.485Gbit/second does it? Isn't it fed at something like 60Mbit/second MPEG2 (Longish GOP?) via satellite - which it decodes to HD-SDI rate video for output? (Or do you have an uncompressed fibre feed from CBS at your station?)

That should look great fed to a decent broadcast grade 1 monitor - but still may not look as good as the output from a live camera on a broadcast grade 1 monitor in the production gallery or truck, prior to any VT / Server or Backhaul / Fronthaul compression.
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post #48 of 49 Old 09-20-2007, 09:20 AM
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I have a C-band satellite dish and an HD mpeg receiver that I bought in 1999. The first HD programs I watched were ABC, CBS, and PBS feeds. These feeds were (and are) much better than most viewers will ever see, whether the get programming from OTA, little dish, or cable.

My local CBS stations uses approximately 6 Mbs of the 19 Mbs ATSC bandwidth for a weather channel and the local ABC station has an analog upconvert in its digital stream. The local PBS station has bastardized the HD feed with two SD video channels.

Once you've seen the picture that HD is capable of providing (720p or 1080i), the stuff the providers are sending out is very disappointing indeed. Fortunately for the providers, the viewers don't know any better.
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post #49 of 49 Old 12-18-2007, 12:47 AM
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Historically the major networks did not have a mountain time zone feed. For this reason in the 50s and the 60s many stations in the mountain time zone actually took the live Eastern/ Central feed and and broadcast the programs two hours earlier than the Eastern Feed. At CBS on Saturday Night in 1966 the Eastern Feed was 7:30 Jackie Gleason, 8:30 Pistols N Petticoats, 9:00 Mission Impossible ,10:00 Gunsmoke. In One Mountain Time Zone station the feed was run from 5:30 -9pm Mountain time. The Local station then aired a 90 minute movie until about 10:30 pm . Another station in another city took the feed live from 6:30 -9pm and delayed the 5:30pm Gleason broadcast to 9:00pm. So stations adapted the feed as best as they could. Later as more stations had the ability to delay the feed there was a push to keep a uniform 7-10pm Primetime.
Mountain Time was accustomed to the earlier start for prime time programming so delaying the feed to follow a 8-11pm schedule would have seemed awkward for Mountain Time Zone viewing patterns. Most stations in the mountain time zone did not bother delaying the daytime network feeds of Soap operas and game shows. Now that network daytime schedules have shrunk ( they used to be from 10am to 4:30 pm EST)
the stations kind of pick when they want to air the few daytime shows.
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