The $64K Question: Will HD-Lite Continue on D*TV... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

The downside of this massive rollout of approx. 100 hd channels - and a concern I posted right after the initial D* announcement earlier this year - is what will the mindset of D* engineers be knowing that even before they deliver the first MPEG4 HD channel, 2/3rds of the CONUS capacity of both D*10 and D*11 will already be allocated? At what PQ is the 150 channel capacity figured? What contingency do they have in case of a D*11 failure, and is D*10's CONUS capacity only adequate for the announced channels with severe bandwidth restrictions?

A lot of questions and variables and we don't know how they will all be weighed and evaluated when they decide what to actually deliver to us.

Fortunately, a lot of these "100 HD channels" seem to be a lot of hokum. It seems that in truth, only about 65 nationwide networks will be going up on D*10, with the rest of the channels being occasional and fleeting uses of bandwidth. The truth is, at one time, each satellite will hold about 75 HD channels at most, which happens to be around the limit that D* claims on nationwide channel capacity for one of these satellites. So that'll satiate desire for now.

But come on, we all know that there will be even more HD channels coming from various sources in very due time. There's always that concern of D*10 or D*11 going down prematurely, or simply maxing out capacity, and what to do then? This is why I've been claiming that D* will buy E* soon -- to get E*'s copious bandwidth (and I now guess backup satellites) to continue to thrive into the future with top-notch HD quality (barring solar flares or Chinese ballistic missiles wiping out space birds).
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post #92 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by perilous View Post

I could then, once again, get all of my friends, family and neighbors to get the new dishes back on their roofs -- imagine the word of mouth if QUALITY was back at D*TV??!!?? Until then, I have seen with my own eyes, the superior signal our local cable provides. That is why I am the only one in the neighborhood that still has D*TV -- in the hope that FINALLY we get a QUALITY HD signal once again!!

I totally agree. Can someone explain to me why HD does not look as good today as it did 2 years ago? This is astonishing.

I remember recording my first game (Redskins-Ravens) on my Fujitsu 2 years ago on ESPN HD. The picture was stunning...I would demo that game to people who had never seen an HD signal.

Fast forward to last night for the Skins-Eagles game on ESPN HD. The thrill is gone. There is no comparison. Seems like the only time I see a picture comparable to the one I was getting 2 years ago is my local news.
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post #93 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 02:33 PM
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Much of ESPN's quality issues seem to be coming from ESPN not the provider. There have been complaints coming in (comparing the quality negatively to previous years) across all providers. It's also a 720p channel which means D* isn't cutting bandwidth in addition to reducing the bitrate.

If that's your biggest beef, you're very lucky. If you saw the 1080i HD D* was sending out initially - you'd be in tears with the rest of us talking about the good ol' days.
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post #94 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 02:59 PM
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Shouldn't everything be getting BETTER as time goes on? This is crazy. I understand the how we came to HD Lite but how long is this going to last? It just seems really strange how we have come from B&W TV to color TV to digital satellite TV to now HDTV and all the sudden, after 50 years of progressing to the ultimate in picture quality, the quality now has DECLINED. I don't understand this at all. Is this simply a 2 or 3 year bump in the road?
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post #95 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 03:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

Why can't they? You are a piece of work! You haven't even seen anything being broadcasted with all of this new satellite capacity, so asking why they can't give you the PQ of local cable is completely stupid. You are clearly on a mission to bash DirecTV at all costs, and it's glaringly obvious.

Geeeeez...why are some of you so quick to attack!!!

If that is your interpretation of my posts (including my thread starter), I feel sorry for you (and I won't even say its "completely stupid" ....

I have stated in this thread alone "I am rooting for D*TV", "I am an early adopter/advocate for D*TV" and "I hope they upgrade their signals upon launch of new capacity".

Many have opined in this thread that they do NOT expect D*TV to upgrade the signals anytime soon -- if ever; therefore my rhetorical question "why can't they?" (given all of this new capacity).

Unless you know something we don't, we will all know soon!!
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post #96 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richard korsgren View Post

I would expect the upcoming HD channels to look 'about the same' as the present Directv channels delivering local stations. If that happens, I am satisfied because the present local HD stations delivered by Directv look 'about the same' as the local stations (networks) OTA. By the way, I, also, see a very nice image from Discovery Theatre and HDNET, etc. I really doubt that cable can make the networks look better than a signal delivered OTA.

With my signals on 103-b holding steady now for many hours, it may well be that Directv is approaching the end of their testing.

That would be great -- I hope this is true!!!
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post #97 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perilous View Post

I have stated in this thread alone "I am rooting for D*TV"

Actions speak louder then words
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post #98 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 03:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenC View Post

perilous - I'm not a sports fanatic, but many DirecTV subscribers are sports nuts and subscribe because of "Sunday Ticket". Even the most ardent quality picture supporters will cave on quality if it means reducing the number of games available to them. DirecTV knows this and exploits their position in this respect. That is the ugly, down-rezzed truth.

As Mr. Panther points out, we can't accept full resolution without full bandwidth. The macroblocked mess of 1920x1080 at bit-starved levels would be horrendous.

So true!! I am one of those sports fanatics that cannot live without ST either -- I am addicted!!! Its so sad, that I got cable PRIMARILY so I could see my local sports teams in HD!! The boss (you know who) is ready to kill me!!!
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post #99 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevbo1861 View Post

I totally agree. Can someone explain to me why HD does not look as good today as it did 2 years ago? This is astonishing.

I remember recording my first game (Redskins-Ravens) on my Fujitsu 2 years ago on ESPN HD. The picture was stunning...I would demo that game to people who had never seen an HD signal.

Fast forward to last night for the Skins-Eagles game on ESPN HD. The thrill is gone. There is no comparison. Seems like the only time I see a picture comparable to the one I was getting 2 years ago is my local news.

Thanks for reading my entire post!! That is my essential frustration too....
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post #100 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by OrleansDawg View Post

Actions speak louder then words

Are you drinking too many hurricanes???? All we can go by here ARE words!!??!!
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post #101 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by perilous View Post

I thought the new boxes (HR20 vs. HR10) were needed to "see" the Mpeg4 locals -- you mean to tell me we are NOT getting Mpeg4 in NYC??? Where can I determine this or not? And, if not, WHEN???

NYC area is getting MPEG2 locals because D* used the NYC network stations as the Eastern Time Zone national network feed (for those customers in areas where D* wasn't offering their local network feeds). I would assume that at some point within the next year (or two) D* will eliminate all of the MPEG2 HD feeds and all HD will convert over to MPEG4. At the latest, NYC will be getting HD locals in MPEG4 by then. In the short term, I suspect that D* may decide to not duplicate NYC network feeds in both MPEG2 (for their national customers) and also on the new satellite's spot beam in MPEG4 to serve their NYC customers.

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post #102 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perilous View Post

Are you drinking too many hurricanes???? All we can go by here ARE words!!??!!

Holy Cow, I really need to spell this out?

You can type all you want about "rooting for D*" or anything like that but your consistent mis-informed posts show otherwise.
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post #103 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 08:48 PM
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So the contention by perilous is that NYC only gets MPEG2 locals (80, 82, etc)?

Here in Los Angeles we get the MPEG2 locals (81, 83, etc) but also get the MPEG4 version when we hit our local HD channel numbers (2,4,5,7,11).

It has been my understanding that such has also been happening in NY, so that MPEG4 signals ARE available for the local stations. They just aren't numbered 80, 82, and 84, but rather 2, 4, 5, 7, and 11.

(The MPEG2 channels in the 80s are used for DNS viewers and are not spot beamed. Their quality is markedly worse than the OTA signals.)

But I could well be wrong. Perilous does seem on top of the situation.
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post #104 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perilous View Post

Not to reopen a can of worms, but my frustration is why can't D*TV at least give me the quality of my local cable picture with all of this new satellite capacity.

How about this for a reason: The satellite is not online yet (at least as of when this was posted). The capacity isn't yet available. There is no extra room until the new satellite actually begins broadcasting the channels assigned to it.

Nothing has changed from 6 months ago to now other than the bird is in space. However, until the satellite actually goes online and the channels are activated, you won't see any difference. The only MPEG4 channels right now are the locals on two spot beam satellites - which can't be effectively used for national programming. We're still waiting to see the results from the bird that can.

Relax, dude. Switch to decaf. No offense, but if you were worried about HD - Lite, why would you upgrade your equipment without checking on reports of the new channels here first? That's like buying a car sight unseen that no one has ever driven without hearing from those that get to test it.
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post #105 of 281 Old 09-18-2007, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredfa View Post

But I could well be wrong. Perilous does seem on top of the situation.

NYC definitely gets MPEG4 locals just like LA and every other city that has HD locals available.
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post #106 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 05:48 AM
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I hope this thread turns into one where someone edits the title with the answer. "The $64K Question: Will HD-Lite COntinue on D*TV..." That way I'll know as soon as I load the first page of the forum. Heck, I won't even need to turn on the Tv.
--
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post #107 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 06:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrleansDawg View Post

Holy Cow, I really need to spell this out?

You can type all you want about "rooting for D*" or anything like that but your consistent mis-informed posts show otherwise.

"Consistent, misinformed posts"...my only "mistake" was comparing 82 (Mpeg2) as opposed to the Mpeg4 channel vs. local cable (which I admitted once told)....please point out any other "misinformed" posts please, Mr. Perfect

Again...another one adding value to the thread....GEEZ!!!!
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post #108 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredfa View Post

So the contention by perilous is that NYC only gets MPEG2 locals (80, 82, etc)?


Where did I say that??? I mistakenly thought 82 would be "mirrored" to Mpeg4 when I got the new HR20 and was viewing an Mpeg4 signal; however, I was informed early in the thread about the mirrored Channel 4 and that 82 was left as Mpeg2 (therefore the source of many jumping on the "bash Perilous" bandwagon as being ill-informed, an embarassment, etc. Amazing!!!). Further, later in the thread I outlined that I subsequently was educated that the Mpeg4 locals we are receiving in the NYC area are...2 (CBS), 4 (NBC), 5 (Fox), 7 (ABC) and YesHD and SNYHD (no HD local channel 11 by the way).

Your description of the 80's and Mpeg2 is correct and hopefully helpful to others...
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post #109 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 07:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

How about this for a reason: The satellite is not online yet (at least as of when this was posted). The capacity isn't yet available. There is no extra room until the new satellite actually begins broadcasting the channels assigned to it.

Nothing has changed from 6 months ago to now other than the bird is in space. However, until the satellite actually goes online and the channels are activated, you won't see any difference. The only MPEG4 channels right now are the locals on two spot beam satellites - which can't be effectively used for national programming. We're still waiting to see the results from the bird that can.

Relax, dude. Switch to decaf. No offense, but if you were worried about HD - Lite, why would you upgrade your equipment without checking on reports of the new channels here first? That's like buying a car sight unseen that no one has ever driven without hearing from those that get to test it.

ANOTHER one on the bash Perilous bandwagon who didn't read my posts...let me summarize excerpts from my posts for you as you clearly did not read them yourself...

I got the NEW equipment (D*TV early adopter since 1994) in ANTICIPATION of the launch of new channels with the new capacity. I have been told that the Mpeg4 transmissions are BETTER than Mpeg2, but to see them you MUST have an HR20 vs. an HR10 (plus that the Mpeg2 boxes would be phased out). Further, I plan on KEEPING D*TV no matter what because of Sunday Ticket, etc.

Again...my rhetorical question is (the title of the thread)....WILL HD-LITE CONTINUE?

Could you please opine on that instead of piling on???
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post #110 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 07:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mythical_phenix View Post

I hope this thread turns into one where someone edits the title with the answer. "The $64K Question: Will HD-Lite COntinue on D*TV..." That way I'll know as soon as I load the first page of the forum. Heck, I won't even need to turn on the Tv.
--

AGREED!!
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post #111 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perilous View Post

<<snipped>>

Further, I plan on KEEPING D*TV no matter what because of Sunday Ticket, etc.

Again...my rhetorical question is (the title of the thread)....WILL HD-LITE CONTINUE?

Could you please opine on that instead of piling on???

perilous - Based on your post which I have quoted, I have to ask "Why do you care if HD-Lite will continue on DirecTV?" You state that you will keep DirecTV because of their Sunday Ticket package "no matter what". So, what difference does it make to you if you see it in SD, HD-Lite, or full bandwidth HD? If you really cared about HD-Lite, you would drop your DirecTV HD packages and only keep the SD. Why pay extra for HD-Lite?
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post #112 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenC View Post

perilous - Based on your post which I have quoted, I have to ask "Why do you care if HD-Lite will continue on DirecTV?" You state that you will keep DirecTV because of their Sunday Ticket package "no matter what". So, what difference does it make to you if you see it in SD, HD-Lite, or full bandwidth HD? If you really cared about HD-Lite, you would drop your DirecTV HD packages and only keep the SD. Why pay extra for HD-Lite?

First of all, did anyone ever say SD is as good as HD-Lite??? Please...

Secondly, don't all of us want the best signal we can get?? However, if that's still not good enough for you, I'll bore you with my own additional personal motivation....

Because as I stated earlier in the thread, I ALSO have local cable so I can get a "better HD picture", plus my local sports in HD (not available on D*TV).

If all the "rumors" are true, the new capacity "may" provide a better picture and "may" add MSGHD and FSNYHD. If all true, I can get rid of cable once and for all -- get it???

If not, I will keep D*TV BECAUSE its the only place to get Sunday Ticket and I must pay additional to see the games in HD-Lite -- if you have other options I am unaware of, please enlighten all of us....
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post #113 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 08:20 AM
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Yes, I agree with you that we all want the best signal source available to feed our display devices. But, DirecTV is a profit making business. They wish to maximize profits while minimizing expenses. If they can provide 70 HD-Lite channels and get 20 million subscribers versus 50 full HD channels and only 10 million subscribers, which path do you think DirecTV will follow?

I think what I'm trying to say is that DirecTV has provided the sports addict with the Sunday Ticket drug. If you are willing and able to pay extra for this package and accept the quality of the package provided, then enjoy. But, if you want better quality, I don't think your addiction will be satisfied.

Good luck and I hope your favorite team wins.
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post #114 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 08:59 AM
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It would be cool if D* could just give me free service and I could have fios for free. Just remember there are people that don't even have homes to live in, just keep the nitpicking in perspective. If we are complaining about hd lite(which I do) we are in one hell of a country!
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post #115 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredfa View Post

So the contention by perilous is that NYC only gets MPEG2 locals (80, 82, etc)?

Here in Los Angeles we get the MPEG2 locals (81, 83, etc) but also get the MPEG4 version when we hit our local HD channel numbers (2,4,5,7,11).

It has been my understanding that such has also been happening in NY, so that MPEG4 signals ARE available for the local stations. They just aren't numbered 80, 82, and 84, but rather 2, 4, 5, 7, and 11.

(The MPEG2 channels in the 80s are used for DNS viewers and are not spot beamed. Their quality is markedly worse than the OTA signals.)

But I could well be wrong. Perilous does seem on top of the situation.

It's my understanding from the NYC local reception thread (for DTV services) at: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=607959

that they are still getting MPEG2 for the locals. Perhaps D* is remapping the national channel numbers to appear as the local channel numbers.

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post #116 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

I don't believe the lawsuit was a class action suit. But either way, the existing suit will have no impact on what D* does, or doesn't do, with the new capacity - it is a minor issue being handled by their legal department. Additionally, the suit only has merit at a fixed point in time in the past while there was still an overlap between D* defining HD using ATSC standards and after they reduced the resolution of their HD channels.

Yes it is, in fact, I'm giving a deposition later this month in support of the suit.
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post #117 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 09:19 AM
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Yes it is, in fact, I'm giving a deposition later this month in support of the suit.

Did they solicit additional participants?
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post #118 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perilous View Post

First of all, did anyone ever say SD is as good as HD-Lite??? Please...

Secondly, don't all of us want the best signal we can get?? However, if that's still not good enough for you, I'll bore you with my own additional personal motivation....

Because as I stated earlier in the thread, I ALSO have local cable so I can get a "better HD picture", plus my local sports in HD (not available on D*TV).

If all the "rumors" are true, the new capacity "may" provide a better picture and "may" add MSGHD and FSNYHD. If all true, I can get rid of cable once and for all -- get it???

If not, I will keep D*TV BECAUSE its the only place to get Sunday Ticket and I must pay additional to see the games in HD-Lite -- if you have other options I am unaware of, please enlighten all of us....

mpeg4 isnot hdlite to many people. Yes it is bitstarved, but the main problem with defining "HD lite" is that it requires a noticeable degradation in picture quality to qualify.

many, includng myself, do not see a degradation in PQ on mpeg4 broadcasts. Therefore, I don't consider it HD Lite.

Others say that unless it is full bandwidth, it is hd lite. Which I find to be kind of silly. The end product is the important thing, not the process along the way. If it looks as good as OTA, I'll be hapy.

hd lite in mpeg2 will most likely continue for the forseeable future. But since most of the hd channels will be mpeg4 now, if D* continues the trend they did with LILs, I'll be quite happy.

when sunday ticket is fully deliveredin mpeg4, hopefully it will look even better.
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post #119 of 281 Old 09-19-2007, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandiegojoe View Post

mpeg4 isnot hdlite to many people. Yes it is bitstarved, but the main problem with defining "HD lite" is that it requires a noticeable degradation in picture quality to qualify.

many, includng myself, do not see a degradation in PQ on mpeg4 broadcasts. Therefore, I don't consider it HD Lite.

Others say that unless it is full bandwidth, it is hd lite. Which I find to be kind of silly. The end product is the important thing, not the process along the way. If it looks as good as OTA, I'll be hapy.

hd lite in mpeg2 will most likely continue for the forseeable future. But since most of the hd channels will be mpeg4 now, if D* continues the trend they did with LILs, I'll be quite happy.

when sunday ticket is fully deliveredin mpeg4, hopefully it will look even better.

Don't confuse bandwidth and down-rezzing. My technical knowledge of the subject is obviously not where some members are; however, if the 1920x1080 frame is displayed at 1440x1080, then it is HD-Lite. With MPEG4, 19 mbps is not going to be the norm, probably around 9 mbps is enough, but you would have to ask someone with more knowledge of the delivery mechanism.

Jeff
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Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

Did they solicit additional participants?

I trying to remember how it worked, been quite awhile now..I think he contacted me via PM, or I sent him my email addy in response to a post here asking if anyone was interested. This goes back at least 18 mos or more so my memory is pretty hazy on it.

Initially the attorney said my participation would probably be limited to just one of the named in the class and nothing beyond that. It could be that my geographic location, next to San Francisco/LA, was a factor in actually being deposed, I'm not sure, having not been in contact with the attorney for a few weeks.
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