DirecTV HDTV - Page 22 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 10Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #631 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:25 PM
Member
 
flavorguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Peapack, NJ
Posts: 150
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I get all of the new stations, except CNNHD 202, ESPNHD 206, and Big Ten 220 where the picture locks up, pixelates, and/or the "771" message comes up...

So is this a cableing issue, a BBC issue or a HR20-100 issue? Why only on those stations?

Flavorguy
flavorguy is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #632 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
Moderator
 
CPanther95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 23,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

That "not" was a mistype. You didn't answer my question though.


What he's saying is if TNT-HD gets pulled due to lack of MPEG2 space during NFL ST - but it remains available to MPEG4 equipment - then it must be coming in MPEG4.
CPanther95 is online now  
post #633 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ScoBuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: nassau county, ny
Posts: 1,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

What he's saying is if TNT-HD gets pulled due to lack of MPEG2 space during NFL ST - but it remains available to MPEG4 equipment - then it must be coming in MPEG4.

exactly. or they could send MPEG2 down form D10 I guess.
ScoBuck is offline  
post #634 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeremy W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoBuck View Post

exactly. or they could send MPEG2 down form D10 I guess.

There's no reason to send MPEG2 down from D10, since any MPEG2-only receivers can't even see D10 in the first place.
Jeremy W is offline  
post #635 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ScoBuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: nassau county, ny
Posts: 1,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

There's no reason to send MPEG2 down from D10, since any MPEG2-only receivers can't even see D10 in the first place.

Not sure how you would know whether there is a reason or not. If they are in fact currently throwing out channel 245-1 as a re-map of channel 75 - it may be just as easy for them to throw it up to D10 in mpeg2 for a few hours on Sunday. I never said they would, I said they COULD.

Of course, those with mpeg2 boxes won't see it, but that is NOT the question.
ScoBuck is offline  
post #636 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeremy W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoBuck View Post

If they are in fact currently throwing out channel 245-1 as a re-map of channel 75

There is no 245-1, but 245 is a re-map of 75.
Jeremy W is offline  
post #637 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
richard korsgren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,562
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

Blocking can only be caused by the provider. Nothing in someone's setup can cause macroblocking. The fact that you can't see it is an issue with either your TV or your eyes, because it is there. Your signal is the same as everyone elses, and it includes the macroblocking.

I am not here to debate. And I do not lie. My statement stands! My Panny Plasma is less than a year old and working perfectly. And my eyes are very good. And seldom do I ever see this 'blocking'. I have recorded every minute of 'WAR' by Ken Burns (PBSHD) and I can assure anyone I have zero 'blocking' in the series so far. It is foolish to talk about this anymore at this time. I do respect other people and believe what they 'see'. I do know what I see (or do not see, in this case).
richard korsgren is offline  
post #638 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:51 PM
Senior Member
 
jmj713's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

What I was trying to convey is...If the PQ is very good, then who cares if it is MPEG2 or 4?
What difference does it make to know if I am seeing MPEG2 or 4?
The PQ of some of these new channels looks like MPEG1.

For me it's not so much the quality as DVR space.
jmj713 is offline  
post #639 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ScoBuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: nassau county, ny
Posts: 1,025
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

There is no 245-1, but 245 is a re-map of 75.

I really am not so sure you know of what you say, and I really don't care to argue with you.

Let's see Sunday what happens.

ta-ta
ScoBuck is offline  
post #640 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:53 PM
Member
 
DTTC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

It is stretch-o-vision, it's just much slighter than the straight 4:3 to 16:9 that other channels use.

They're using very good upconverters. Believe me, it's SD.

Jeremy W is correct. Discovery, Science, TLC and Animal Planet are using very good upconverters. The 4:3 content is zoomed and cropped, and very slightly stretched (linear stretch, not flexed). The attempt has been made to fill as much of the 16:9 screen as possible with the least amount of negative impact. Opinions on how succesful we have been will naturally vary.

HD content airs as 16:9 of course, as does 4:3 SD letterboxed content. This SD content is upconverted and zoomed to fill the 16:9 screen with no loss of content and no distortion.

Your numerous comments about OAR are noted. It's fine for those who understand that HD can include 4:3 content, but there are far more viewers who believe that if it doesn't fill the screen it's not HD. There are even some postings here on the forum complaining about HD channels not filling the screen. As much as we may not like it, upconverted SD will be part of these channels for some time, though the percentage of true HD is rapidly increasing. Prime time is the best time to catch true HD.
DTTC is offline  
post #641 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:54 PM
Member
 
kdrabik's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Lancaster, NY
Posts: 97
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

There is no 245-1, but 245 is a re-map of 75.

I was under the impression that 75 was coming from 119(or 110) and 245(HD) was coming from 113 and 245(SD) comes from 101..

So, I thought that 245(HD) was NOT a remap of 75...
245(HD) is MPEG4 and 75 is MPEG2..

am I wrong?

so, those that have NFLST and a 5LNB dish and a H20 or HR20 or H21 and want to watch TNTHD could tune to 245(HD) this Sunday
(if they shut off 75)
kdrabik is offline  
post #642 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 02:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
richard korsgren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,562
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by mx6bfast View Post

Ok well maybe everywhere is the wrong word to use. All around where the movement is there is motion blocking. My tv screen is fine so it's not that. It has to be the source because I see it on more than 1 tv, and for OTA, see it on my pc monitor also.

I'm pleased that D* is giving us these new HD channels, and even older ones. But my views is they aren't giving us the best they can. I'm not arguing how happy you are with them, just what I see.

I have never said I 'was happy with them' I have stated my feelings on the individual channels elsewhere and will not repeat my feelings here. If the channels are not appearing very good, the blame lies with the programmers and not with Directv.
richard korsgren is offline  
post #643 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:05 PM
Senior Member
 
jmj713's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 255
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTC View Post

As much as we may not like it, upconverted SD will be part of these channels for some time

I want to reiterate that I understand that everything can't be true HD, and I'm absolutely fine with USD since regular SD is quite drastically worse (just check standard CNN versus CNN HD when showing 4:3 SD content).
jmj713 is offline  
post #644 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeremy W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by richard korsgren View Post

And I do not lie.

I never called you a liar.
Jeremy W is offline  
post #645 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:10 PM
Advanced Member
 
Maverickster2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 803
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTC View Post

Jeremy W is correct. Discovery, Science, TLC and Animal Planet are using very good upconverters. The 4:3 content is zoomed and cropped, and very slightly stretched (linear stretch, not flexed). The attempt has been made to fill as much of the 16:9 screen as possible with the least amount of negative impact. Opinions on how succesful we have been will naturally vary.

HD content airs as 16:9 of course, as does 4:3 SD letterboxed content. This SD content is upconverted and zoomed to fill the 16:9 screen with no loss of content and no distortion.

Your numerous comments about OAR are noted. It's fine for those who understand that HD can include 4:3 content, but there are far more viewers who believe that if it doesn't fill the screen it's not HD. There are even some postings here on the forum complaining about HD channels not filling the screen. As much as we may not like it, upconverted SD will be part of these channels for some time, though the percentage of true HD is rapidly increasing. Prime time is the best time to catch true HD.

Thank you for your comments. Although I've only made one comment re OAR (so "numerous" isn't quite right), you are correct that there are several folks upset about the, lets call it, "manipulation" of 4:3 content, so collectively there have been NUMEROUS comments.

That said, since you refer to the at-issue network as "we", I am assuming you have some relationship with them. If that's the case and if you're telling me I MUST live with some form of manipulation of 4:3 content, let me cast my vote for the zoom/crop/mild stretch method that has been employed on the Discovery line of channels (that yields the slim bars on the side). I am not one of those who will simply not watch a given channel or a given program simply because it's not broadcast in OAR, but I won't watch channels or programs that I think look ridiculous (e.g A&EHD), and I think the method that Discovery has employed is the "least intrusive" -- I mean, before I was corrected, I truly speculated about whether that HD content in its native (albeit new -- not 16:9 or 4:3) aspect ratio. It looks quite good.

Anyway, again, I would prefer OAR as I would prefer to handle the manipulation myself, but if I must live with source-level manipulation, the Discovery version is infinitely better and more watchable than the A&EHD version.

Thank you.
Maverickster2 is offline  
post #646 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeremy W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoBuck View Post

I really am not so sure you know of what you say, and I really don't care to argue with you.

Let's see Sunday what happens.

Maybe they will start broadcasting it from D10 on Sunday, I have no idea. That doesn't change the fact that RIGHT NOW, 245 TNTHD is simply a re-mapping of 75 TNTH. This is an indisputable fact, and if you disagree with it, you are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about.
Jeremy W is offline  
post #647 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:18 PM
Advanced Member
 
yampan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Chapel Hill,NC
Posts: 767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I wish they would all give us 4:3 material with the option to stretch it ourselves. My Tosh DLP has a non linear stretch which gives me a far more natural look than the across the board fat faces some stations are forcing on us. JMHO. That means my SD simulcasts actually look better for now than the HD versions. Too bad.

Hopefully a little feedback from us may help.
yampan is offline  
post #648 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
richard korsgren's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,562
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

I never called you a liar.

Well, when I express my opinion on a subject and another person says..(in so many words) it just can not be, I think it is time to move on. I have always tried to accept the views/opinions of others. Enjoy! ..and certainly no hard feelings on my part. Just not much fun to be here anymore. I need a good dinner.
richard korsgren is offline  
post #649 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rcliff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,235
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by obxdiver View Post

why is there so much discussion on the MPEG 2 vs MPEG4.
WHO CARES !!!
If the picture looks anywhere close to HD-NET it could be MPEG100 and I could care less.
Give me a break.
Get over it.

Because D*'s HD-Lite MPEG2 channels look like crap and have deteriorated horribly over the years. This currently includes HDNet which has not been switched to MPEG4 yet. MPEG4 is their big chance to finally redeem themselves.

rcliff
rcliff is offline  
post #650 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
DERG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Brown City, Michigan
Posts: 620
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by yampan View Post

I wish they would all give us 4:3 material with the option to stretch it ourselves.

Hopefully a little feedback from us may help.

Amen! The weird stretch is awful.
DERG is offline  
post #651 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:26 PM
fcb
Advanced Member
 
fcb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 818
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcliff View Post

Because D*'s HD-Lite MPEG2 channels look like crap and have deteriorated horribly over the years. This currently includes HDNet which has not been switched to MPEG4 yet. MPEG4 is their big chance to finally redeem themselves.

And I hope they do. Still MPEG4 is not a magic bullet, D* can still use less than 1920x1080, or a too low bit rate/too much compression, or all of the above.

Fred

Fred

Don't make 'em like they used to, but charge you double price, promise you steak but give you beans and rice.
Just ain't enough good stuff!

 

Panasonic 65VT60

Yamaha RX-V3900

Ohm Walsh 200 Mk-2

Uverse

HP H8-1360T

fcb is offline  
post #652 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:30 PM
Member
 
Utahred1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: SLC,Utah
Posts: 173
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I would rather see non-HD programming stretched than those darn annoying sidebars with their logo blasted all over it like CNN. If they would at least matte the image so it would appear 16x9 that would also be better.
Utahred1981 is offline  
post #653 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
Moderator
 
CPanther95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 23,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTTC View Post

Your numerous comments about OAR are noted. It's fine for those who understand that HD can include 4:3 content, but there are far more viewers who believe that if it doesn't fill the screen it's not HD. There are even some postings here on the forum complaining about HD channels not filling the screen. As much as we may not like it, upconverted SD will be part of these channels for some time, though the percentage of true HD is rapidly increasing. Prime time is the best time to catch true HD.


Of course, the problem is that upconverted SD is not HD. Most of us don't have a problem with SD content presented as 4:3 upconverted - what we question is the motivation for claiming it is HD or trying to fool people into believing that it is.

As far as the majority of viewers who may that think "if it doesn't fill the screen it is not HD" - for the most part they are correct. Zooming and cropping it to try and fill the screen doesn't make it HD.
CPanther95 is online now  
post #654 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:39 PM - Thread Starter
Moderator
 
CPanther95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 23,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by Utahred1981 View Post

I would rather see non-HD programming stretched than those darn annoying sidebars with their logo blasted all over it like CNN. If they would at least matte the image so it would appear 16x9 that would also be better.

Then stretch it - don't force the rest of us to live with your personal preference.
CPanther95 is online now  
post #655 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:40 PM
Advanced Member
 
twelvepbrs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Westminster, CA
Posts: 874
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fcb View Post

And I hope they do. Still MPEG4 is not a magic bullet, D* can still use less than 1920x1080, or a too low bit rate/too much compression, or all of the above.

Fred

I think there are some people here who are completely forgetting the blatantly obvious point of switching from MPEG2 compression to MPEG4, and that is you can acheive what would be considered the same picture quality using MPEG4 at a lower bitrate than MPEG2. With all the knobs D* has at their disposal they could deliver content at full resolution at full bit-rate or full-res with extra compression, or at lower res (HDlite) but with a higher bitrate per pixel or the dreaded lower res with extra compression
It's up to them to determine what trade-offs need to be made in terms of adding more bandwidth, using MPEG4 vs MPEG2 for a given channel, and guaging what resolution and compression lets them deliver the best product to their customers (with a reasonable amount of cost). I eagerly await whatever numbers all the nerds can come up with for the bitrates for these new channels. It should give many hope that the PQ, the volume and the variety of content delivered by D* will keep going UP!!!
twelvepbrs is offline  
post #656 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:47 PM
Advanced Member
 
squidboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Aurora, CO
Posts: 833
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

Then stretch it - don't force the rest of us to live with your personal preference.

I agree with you. I like OAR. Let people stretch if they want.

One question though (for everyone). Can the HR20 stretch 1080i 4:3 programming? The "format" button doesn't seem to do anything when I'm watching HD 16:9.

I know a lot of TVs won't apply stretching/processing to HD signals either.

So if the HR20 won't stretch, and the TVs won't stretch, people don't have the option to stretch.

Can anyone confirm this?
squidboy is offline  
post #657 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:50 PM - Thread Starter
Moderator
 
CPanther95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 23,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 59
If the TV and STB can't stretch - then viewers have the option of switching to the SD channel and manipulating it however they want.

Those that want the best quality with the programming presented in its proper format should be able to get the best the network has to offer on their premium HD channel - not switch back and forth depending on the program.

It's the equivalent of HBO putting a stereo soundtrack on the SD programming on HBO HD and the DD5.1 soundtrack on their SD channel.
CPanther95 is online now  
post #658 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:53 PM
AVS Special Member
 
vurbano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Newport News, VA
Posts: 7,559
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
I am getting occasional black screens for a second or 2 on some channels. Almost like an HDMI problem. Anyone else?
vurbano is offline  
post #659 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
Moderator
 
CPanther95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 23,767
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 59
When switching channels - or while watching a channel?
CPanther95 is online now  
post #660 of 14826 Old 09-27-2007, 03:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeremy W's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Detroit
Posts: 4,776
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidboy View Post

Can the HR20 stretch 1080i 4:3 programming?

It can't stretch 720p or 1080i programming.
Jeremy W is offline  
Reply HDTV Programming

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off