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post #1081 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nm88 View Post

Not only does the signal not have to be 60fps to conform to the standard, but most of the content isn't 60 fps.

True, in the US it could be 30fps. or 60fps. However, most OTA and source 720 material IS 60p.
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Originally Posted by nm88 View Post

Whether you convert a 24 fps film source to 30 fps or 60 fps, you still only have 24 fps worth of information.

Yes, but 24fps requires a telecine 3:2 pulldown to display at 30 or 60fps. This introduces artifacts and additional judder, so it is no longer as you say, only 24 fps worth of information. Even with the use of reverse telecine you would have to have a TV with a scan rate of 120Hz to properly display 24fps.
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Originally Posted by nm88 View Post

I'd be surprised if D* actually transmits all the 720p channels at 60 fps, it would be an incredible waste of bandwidth.

The bandwidth required for 720p60 is less than that for 1080i60 (which could really be best described as 540i). 1080i60 requires 62,208,000 Pixels per second, while 720p60 requires 55,296,000 Pixels per second, or about 11% less. You could, I guess, argue that 1080i has 11% better resolution than 720p if you discount the interlace artifacts.
Only the Shadow knows for sure what D* is transmitting in either format.

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post #1082 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:17 AM
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Just some observations...

I've just read much of this thread and have seen many initial MPEG4 PQ impressions, both positive and negative. Unfortunately, very few people are stating what display they are basing their opinions on. Without this information, these subjective opinions are essentially useless. For all we know, you could be looking at a 20 LCD or a giant image from a 1080p projector. For example, I know that the D* MPEG2 channels look horrendous on my Mits 65 RPTV but still decent on my Panny 37 ED plasma. Perhaps the mod's could modify the first post of this thread to request that display specs are included with any picture quality impressions.

Also why isn't anyone directly comparing SHO (MPEG2) to SHO-W (MPEG4) for identical content comparison? I've seen this suggested numerous times in this thread, but still no comments from someone who's actually done this. I'm sure many here would like to hear about this apples to apples MPEG2 to MPEG4 comparison.


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post #1083 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

I think it was completely wrong. To hell with the stragglers, it's time to stop coddling them. It's not "the cutting edge" when the MPEG4 HD receiver has been out for two years, and the MPEG4 HD DVR has been out for one year. This change wasn't announced last month, it's been in the works for years. The big national HD rollout has begun, so let's just leave the past behind us.

Gee, thanks
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post #1084 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:30 AM
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It looks like DirecTV fixed the resolution problem on TBS-HD, my VP50 is now reporting a 1080i signal for ch 247

Hmm...I wonder if they've been following these threads?
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post #1085 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

It looks like DirecTV fixed the resolution problem on TBS-HD, my VP50 is now reporting a 1080i signal for ch 247

Hmm...I wonder if they've been following these threads?

Maybe they've been dealing with technical issues since they went HD? As far as I know they just started, which could explain why they were only at 720p.
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post #1086 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

It looks like DirecTV fixed the resolution problem on TBS-HD, my VP50 is now reporting a 1080i signal for ch 247

Hmm...I wonder if they've been following these threads?

TBS HD on DirecTV now showing 1080i on native for me as well.
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post #1087 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by dannynoonan View Post

...Yet certain programming has looked absolutely phenominal on FOX - All Star game, superbowl come to mind.

Just wondering if you actually remember how the superbowl looked on FOX considering the last time it was on FOX was almost three years ago (although it's supposed to be on FOX again this year AFAIK)
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post #1088 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Hmm...I wonder if they've been following these threads?

I would think so.

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post #1089 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

It looks like DirecTV fixed the resolution problem on TBS-HD, my VP50 is now reporting a 1080i signal for ch 247

Hmm...I wonder if they've been following these threads?

You can pretty much bet on it, but like I said it could have been a mistake, or technical issue due to the last minute nature of the broadcast.

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post #1090 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

I would think so.

Yes, I'm 100% positive they do, at least select threads. I mentioned this issue to Ken H yesterday, and Earl at DBSTalk said he would check into it. Whether it was he/them/this thread, at least it's been fixed.

The scary thing is that more people apparently never noticed the problem in the first place, kind of gives credence to DirecTV's seemingly lowest common denominator approach to PQ.

But, kudos to DirecTV for fixing this problem.
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post #1091 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 10:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeLV View Post

TBS HD on DirecTV now showing 1080i on native for me as well.

I'm getting 1080i as well.
D*, if you're listening, get rid of the damn stretch-o-vision. I'm begining to think we have a bigger problem with obesity in this country than previously thought.

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post #1092 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Snuffy101 View Post

I'm getting 1080i as well.
D*, if you're listening, get rid of the damn stretch-o-vision. I'm begining to think we have a bigger problem with obesity in this country than previously thought.

The "stretch-o-vision" is not an issue with DirecTV, that's coming from the provider, in this case TBS.
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post #1093 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuffy101 View Post

I'm getting 1080i as well.
D*, if you're listening, get rid of the damn stretch-o-vision. I'm begining to think we have a bigger problem with obesity in this country than previously thought.

Ummm, DirecTV has nothing to do with stretch-o-vision. That would be the channel doing that (like TNTHD).

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post #1094 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuffy101 View Post

... 1080i60 (which could really be best described as 540i)

I'm sure you meant 540p, but even that would be incorrect. That would be like calling DVD 240p.
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post #1095 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rcliff View Post

I've just read much of this thread and have seen many initial MPEG4 PQ impressions, both positive and negative. Unfortunately, very few people are stating what display they are basing their opinions on. Without this information, these subjective opinions are essentially useless.

I don't like to quote my HDTV because it's crappy and I'm working on trying to get a new 1080p monitor either late this year or early next (I'll probably wait for the Superbowl sales), but I will bring up the fact that the MPEG4 broadcasts (when broadcasting TRUE HD) looks fantastic to my eyes (and I have VERY good eyesight).

Also, I have two TVs hooked up to my HR20... well, three in a way... and the new HD channels look considerably better than the MPEG2 ones do... even on a SDTV... night and day quality.

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Originally Posted by rcliff View Post

Also why isn't anyone directly comparing SHO (MPEG2) to SHO-W (MPEG4) for identical content comparison? I've seen this suggested numerous times in this thread, but still no comments from someone who's actually done this. I'm sure many here would like to hear about this apples to apples MPEG2 to MPEG4 comparison.

I compared Sho-HD with SHO-W this past weekend (freeview weekend) and was VERY impressed with the difference. While I can't say the MI:3 showing was as good as my HD DVD copy, it was certainly an impressive viewing experience... especially when compared to the MPEG2 broadcast on 537 and 71.

As far as the new HD channels goes, I'm not that impressed with TBS-HD, but I still haven't seen any HD on it (I was busy last night, missed the game on Sunday, etc...), but the rest of the channels I've seen (all but the Starz channels and SHO2HD) look great... and I'm amazed that I have YET to see any macroblocking on any of the channels. While I was unable to view the new HD series that debuted on "The Weather Channel" last night, the commercials for it has been some BEAUTIFUL HD footage shown...

I remember some of the first HD I ever saw... it was Discovery HD Theater on Dish Network at Sears and Wal-Mart... back when that was all Dish Network offered in HD... some of the programs shown on these new HD channels remind me of those days...

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post #1096 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcliff View Post

I've just read much of this thread and have seen many initial MPEG4 PQ impressions, both positive and negative. Unfortunately, very few people are stating what display they are basing their opinions on.

For the record, I'm using a Mits 73" RPTV with 9" CRTs feeding a DVDO VP50 with the HR20 outputting at "native".
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post #1097 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post

I don't like to quote my HDTV because it's crappy and I'm working on trying to get a new 1080p monitor either late this year or early next (I'll probably wait for the Superbowl sales), but I will bring up the fact that the MPEG4 broadcasts (when broadcasting TRUE HD) looks fantastic to my eyes (and I have VERY good eyesight).

If you're serious here, you prove my point.

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post #1098 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:00 PM
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Does anybody else think that the Weather Channel HD is a waste of bandwidth? I mean come on who really wants to see that in HD?
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post #1099 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:03 PM
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Quote:


Just wondering if you actually remember how the superbowl looked on FOX considering the last time it was on FOX was almost three years ago (although it's supposed to be on FOX again this year AFAIK)

Yes, I do remember it.

There was a lot of hand wringing about FOX and their widescreen presentation. If I recall they were just starting to broadcast in HD back then.

That Superbowl broadcast was excellent, which was shocking considering what they had been airing on a week to week basis.

Maybe foxeng can help me out here. I am sure others recall that time as well.
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post #1100 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

It looks like DirecTV fixed the resolution problem on TBS-HD, my VP50 is now reporting a 1080i signal for ch 247

Hmm...I wonder if they've been following these threads?

On the other hand, after a long absence they may finally be recommitting themselves to a standard of HD excellence.

All nannies and ninnies aside.
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post #1101 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by GreySkies View Post

I'm sure you meant 540p, but even that would be incorrect. That would be like calling DVD 240p.

It really doesn't matter what you call it, i or p. The point was, sending fields of 1920X540 at a rate of 60 times a second in comparison to sending 1280X720 frames at a rate 60 times a second. 1080i comes out to 62,208,000 pps. versus 720p at 55,296,000 pps. , an 11% difference. The fact that 1080i requires some low-pass filtering (a.k.a. de-interlacing) to reduce the perceived interlace jitter (mouse teeth, etc.) the differences in resolution to your eye/brain are minimal.

The so-called 1080i HD- Lite at 1280X540 fields at a rate of 60 times a second, works out to 41,472,000 pps, (lower than 720p). Add to this, the de-interlacing/filtering and you see why people complain of a soft picture on previous D* 1080i material.

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post #1102 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by rcliff View Post

If you're serious here, you prove my point.

My reasoning for calling the TV crappy is that it's on it's last legs... and I'm just holding on to it until I can pay off some more bills.

Also, besides my HR20-700, I have a HD-A2 HD DVD player and a PS3, and a large amount of HD DVDs and Blu-rays which can be PQ ABOVE and BEYOND any OTA or satellite source... so when I say that the HD looks great on DirecTV... I do have other sources to compare it to...

I can see how bad DirecTV's "HD-Lite" looks (some channels worse than others)... and sure, I might notice it more on a better quality or larger TV, but it's still going to look bad. Showtime-HD West looks FAR better than Showtime-HD East... so we know that DirecTV has in fact improved their expanded HD channels.

Is it good enough for you? I really can't say, but the PQ on these new channels are making my wait for a new HDTV really hard... which is a good thing.

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post #1103 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Utahred1981 View Post

Does anybody else think that the Weather Channel HD is a waste of bandwidth? I mean come on who really wants to see that in HD?

Did you catch the two HD shows that they had on yesterday? If not check out the next time they're on then ask/answer that question again.
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post #1104 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Utahred1981 View Post

Does anybody else think that the Weather Channel HD is a waste of bandwidth? I mean come on who really wants to see that in HD?

I'm not a big sports watcher, so I could personally do without all these sports channels in HD, but I realize there are people out there who are interested in them.

I still haven't seen them yet, but the commercials for TWC's new HD shows (that debuted last night) look amazing... and I've read rave PQ ratings from people who watch the debuts last night.

That being said, yes, I was amazed whenever I read that they intended on starting a HD channel...

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post #1105 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:36 PM
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So is there a difference in PQ between 71 and 540?

Or 70 and 501?

73 and 206?
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post #1106 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wco81 View Post

So is there a difference in PQ between 71 and 540?

Or 70 and 501?

73 and 206?

70 and 501 is the same MPEG2 HD channel... as well as 509.

73 and 206 is the same MPEG2 HD channel.

540 however has a NOTICEABLE increase in PQ over 71/537/543.

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post #1107 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snuffy101 View Post

It really doesn’t matter what ...

True but pedantic. Bit rate and encoding algorithm will have more of an effect on picture quality than the reduction in horizontal resolution from 1920 to 1280. As an example, witness the number of people who assume that the Fox NFL pregame is HD.

Then again, this topic has been beat to death and is OT with respect to this thread.
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post #1108 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gordon View Post

540 however has a NOTICEABLE increase in PQ over 71/537/543.

Hmm, I'll check this out when I get home. Don't tell me I need to reprogram Dexter and Californication again, as well as a few movies...
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post #1109 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Utahred1981 View Post

Does anybody else think that the Weather Channel HD is a waste of bandwidth? I mean come on who really wants to see that in HD?

I do.

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post #1110 of 14895 Old 10-02-2007, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

I think it was completely wrong. To hell with the stragglers, it's time to stop coddling them. It's not "the cutting edge" when the MPEG4 HD receiver has been out for two years, and the MPEG4 HD DVR has been out for one year. This change wasn't announced last month, it's been in the works for years. The big national HD rollout has begun, so let's just leave the past behind us.

Jeremy - I will agree with you that the MPEG4 STB hardware has been available for some time, but the software (i.e. national MPEG4 HD channels) has only been out for six days as I type this. I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person in the "waiting to see the HD quality" camp for these new channels. I was set to make the plunge this month, but Ken H advised that it may be prudent to wait until first quarter of 2008 to see how this all plays out. DirecTV enticed me into the HD world back in 2001 and then gradually reduced screen resolution and bandwidth to the point that I feel that I'm being cheated by paying extra for the HD channels. I won't do that again.
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