NBC 2nd best PQ. You can't be serious. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 05:45 AM - Thread Starter
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http://www.tvpredictions.com/nielsen100307.htm
How do I get on their survey list?

Perhaps I misremembered.

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post #2 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I WANT MORE View Post

http://www.tvpredictions.com/nielsen100307.htm
How do I get on their survey list?


For sports, Terrible. For HD shows, Not that bad though. Heroes looks consitantly great.

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post #3 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 06:29 AM
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In order to be outraged by this thread one has to believe that Swanni has some sort of credibility. Otherwise, most just roll their eyes at the stupid sh!t he says.
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post #4 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 06:37 AM
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It was a study from Nielsen not Swanni. This has also been reported from other places as well.

Here is a link to the Neilsen press release.
http://www.nielsen.com/media/2007/pr_071003.html

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post #5 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 06:40 AM
 
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NBC HD looks great to me....
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post #6 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 06:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway View Post

NBC HD looks great to me....

Ever watch a Notre Dame game, SNF, Nascar, Golf?

Perhaps I misremembered.

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post #7 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 06:51 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I WANT MORE View Post

Ever watch a Notre Dame game, SNF, Nascar, Golf?

Not a sports fan....so no.
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post #8 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Gordon Shumway View Post

NBC HD looks great to me....

NBC HD looks great to me as well. The Office and Life, among others, really look good.
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post #9 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 10:30 AM
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I found this to be interesting:

" When asked which network offers the best picture, Discovery HD Theater was first with 12.7 percent; CBS and NBC tied for second."

Discovery HD uses HDCAM which is 1440 x 1080i, while CBS and NBC use HDCAM SR which is 1920 x 1080i. This brings the more pixels is better theory into question.
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post #10 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 10:32 AM
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The study said ESPN HD was the most popular sports channel, Discovery HD was the most watched channel for documentaries and HBO HD was the most watched channel for movies.

Thank you Nielsen. It's insight like that that makes your service so valuable.
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post #11 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

I found this to be interesting:

" When asked which network offers the best picture, Discovery HD Theater was first with 12.7 percent; CBS and NBC tied for second."

Discovery HD uses HDCAM which is 1440 x 1080i, while CBS and NBC use HDCAM SR which is 1920 x 1080i. This brings the more pixels is better theory into question.

NBC and CBS tied in PQ should bring the whole survey into question.
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post #12 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

Discovery HD uses HDCAM which is 1440 x 1080i, while CBS and NBC use HDCAM SR which is 1920 x 1080i. This brings the more pixels is better theory into question.

It seems clear, though, that many CBS, NBC, etc. tapes delivered to the network as HDCAM SR tapes (no filtering limitation at 1440) could have had HDCAM tape (1440 limit) somewhere in the capture/editing path before final delivery on HDCAM SR. Also the HDCAM-origination tapes, long acknowledged as the source of most 'wow-effect' 1080i, are converted to 1920X1080i within the editing path; that is, upconversion from 1440 to 1920. And specs for studio cameras show, as you'd expect, a limiting resolution (not format resolution), after filtering for viewing, of ~1700 lines from ~74-MHz sampled video. Then there's still that nasty STB end-effect, which seems to be limiting HDNet's test pattern effective resolution (not format resolution) to ~1300 lines for most here anyway. (BTW, as several current posts in the calibration forum point out, HDNet seems to have currently dropped its test patterns. [Edit: Now they're back, slated for Oct. 20, 6:30 am ET. ] -- John

Edit: Find most NBC viewing okay here as I'm seeing it via a fiber/cable head-end link, not subject to inadequate nationwide distribution tech (too low a bit rate?) or apparently even degradation from the SD weather and news channels also piped to my cable head end as multicasting. But then, as mentioned, I'm limited to ~1300 lines effective resolution from my STBs.
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post #13 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I WANT MORE View Post

Ever watch a Notre Dame game, SNF, Nascar, Golf?

I guess I must be lucky, but I have never had any problems with NBC Sports. I don't watch Nascar or Golf, but football has been fine.
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post #14 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davdev View Post

I guess I must be lucky, but I have never had any problems with NBC Sports. I don't watch Nascar or Golf, but football has been fine.

NBC's football PQ is ok, though not as good as Fox, IMHO. But their golf telecasts are abominations, primarily because they use SD cams everywhere except for the towers and try to pass off the footage as "HD."
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post #15 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 01:26 PM
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ESPN PQ stinks and they play with the colors!!!

there is some sort of magenta color shift. To think people like this crap!!!
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post #16 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

NBC and CBS tied in PQ should bring the whole survey into question.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, the problem is that PQ varies among affiliates. There's been reports that CBS looks worse in some markets than any other network. Fox is the only network that looks consistent between markets, but they can be hampered by all the streams stat muxed in the 73 Mb/s sat distribution.
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post #17 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 08:25 PM
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The acid test will come Aug. 08-24 2008, to see how NBC puts on the Beijing 2008 Olympics.

The technical aspects of the coverage from Athens was well-documented by viewers posting in this forum as quite flawed, both for audio (a first for supposed DD5.1 from NBC) and video. Many explanations and excuses were expounded (50/60 and PAL/NTSC conversions from the native country's cameras, too low a bitrate than was really required, too high a compression during US distribution, etc.).

The net result to the viewer was simply one of badly pixelated motion sequences (especially on running, jumping, swimming and diving) and audio levels that were way way way too low (except when you got one of the zillions of commercials inserted here in the US which, by comparison to the Athens audio, were way way way too high).

I find NBC's prime time shows to have improved in picture quality over the past few years, e.g. "Las Vegas" which early on couldn't even handle a "flying camera" through the casino without making the whole screen go all blocky. Things have changed markedly here, and "low-motion" sequences (and other similar shows) now look gorgeous.

Low-motion sports (e.g. The Masters) look gorgeous in 1080i, even from NBC.

I still find NBC's audio to be much too low (at least here in LA, on TWC), and CBS's to be MUCH higher (i.e. local highest!) by comparison.

I find CBS's sports coverage (e.g. US Open Tennis) to be gorgeous in 1080i. And I prefer their high audio level, through truth be told I prefer ABC's which is between NBC's and CBS's.
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post #18 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 10:24 PM
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It seems pretty obvious that NBC is cutting some corner somewhere. Football gets very pixellated if anything moves. Which happens from time to time.
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post #19 of 77 Old 10-04-2007, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSperber View Post

Low-motion sports (e.g. The Masters) look gorgeous in 1080i, even from NBC.

I still find NBC's audio to be much too low (at least here in LA, on TWC), and CBS's to be MUCH higher (i.e. local highest!) by comparison.


The actual overall audio levels of the networks are very close. What makes the overall volume differ so much is the AC3 (aka Dolby Digital) dialnorm value. This parameter controls an attenuator in the AC3 decoder. CBS/CW uses -31db, which has zero attenuation. NBC uses -22db which has an attenuation of 9db. Fox uses -25db which is 6db attenuation. ABC does not transmit dialnorm to the stations so it's set by the station itself. ABC O&Os are around -27db to - 25db (4 - 6db attenuation). The default setting from Dolby is -27db.

Very few decoders allow the dialnorm parameter to be ignored, but on one that does the volume difference between stations is diminished, especially when going between CBS and NBC.

The dialnorm value is sent by CBS and NBC to their affiliates using metadata. CBS also uses the metadata to switch the stereo mode from 2 channel stereo to 5.1, and can do so on each program element including commercials. NBC used to do that but has stayed in constant 5.1 mode since the last Olympics, regardless of whether the show is 2.0 or 5.1. I don't know what purpose the metadata is serving right now on NBC since it doesn't appear to vary, but that may change shortly. CBS's dialnorm also doesn't vary. Affiliates of CBS and NBC that use the network metadata can alter their station encoders for a different dialnorm than what the network is sending. I'm sure both networks would frown upon that, but it would probably make for better consistency in a given market. That's only a pipe dream in major markets like NY, LA and Chicago as the CBS and NBC stations there are O&Os and have their hands tied.


The Masters is broadcast by CBS.

AFIAK, CBS O&Os are not multicasting. NBC O&Os generally have at least Weather Plus, some have more. Fox reserves about 15-16 Mb/s of a station's ATSC channel for its HD stream via their splicer.
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post #20 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 07:50 AM
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NBC is the worst HD quality imo. In the shows I watch, the instant there's fast movement I get pixels the size of cars and the show becomes practically unwatchable.
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post #21 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 07:52 AM
 
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Originally Posted by reuthermonkey View Post

NBC is the worst HD quality imo. In the shows I watch, the instant there's fast movement I get pixels the size of cars and the show becomes practically unwatchable.


Probably a problem with your TV...I have no such issues when I watch NBC HD..it looks great on all shows I watch.
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post #22 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 08:12 AM
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NBC's HD issues with artifacts on motion are well documented on AVS. It's a combination of almost universal multicasting by affiliates coupled with a lower bitrate used for the network distribution compared to ABC and CBS/CW. It's not a problem with one's display, although some settings such as sharpness being too high will accentuate the visibility of the artifacts. Episodics are generally in 24P which put less strain on the transmission chain compared to 60i sports.
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post #23 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TVOD View Post

Episodics are generally in 24P which put less strain on the transmission chain compared to 60i sports.

That's interesting. How so? Seems the 2-3 pulldown of 24p for 1080/60i delivery would approximate original 1080/60i capture. Using MPEG repeat flags for 24p? Thought few program sources actually did that. -- John
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post #24 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 09:27 AM
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In my area NBC is terrible. We are currently having issues with not only the PQ but there is a very annoying popping sound coming from HD. Sports on NBC are a joke. Golf consistantly changes between HD and SD cameras.
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post #25 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CPanther95 View Post

NBC and CBS tied in PQ should bring the whole survey into question.

Yes it should.

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post #26 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

That's interesting. How so? Seems the 2-3 pulldown of 24p for 1080/60i delivery would approximate original 1080/60i capture. Using MPEG repeat flags for 24p? Thought few program sources actually did that. -- John

Greater redundancy, and I think the increase in motion blur helps too. Also 24P production tends to have less fast panning although that seems to has changed. From empirical observation there's less blocking than in 60i sports. Many report that shows on NBC do not suffer from the artifacts that sports does. MPEG repeat flags would help on the network distribution but likely would not be passed to the station's encoder.
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post #27 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 10:19 AM
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Heroes and Sunday Night Football are basically the only shows I consistantly watch on NBC. Heroes looks great, but SNF looks terrible.The local affiliates news programs look very good also. I feel it has something to do with the equipment the network uses for live feeds. Are they using true HD equipment on the field?
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post #28 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

Heroes and Sunday Night Football are basically the only shows I consistantly watch on NBC. Heroes looks great, but SNF looks terrible.The local affiliates news programs look very good also. I feel it has something to do with the equipment the network uses for live feeds. Are they using true HD equipment on the field?

For SNF yes, but for golf many cameras are upconverted SD. I don't think the SNF backhaul is the issue as I've heard they are using high bit rates. Heroes is produced in 24P while SNF is 60i.
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post #29 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason View Post

That's interesting. How so? Seems the 2-3 pulldown of 24p for 1080/60i delivery would approximate original 1080/60i capture. Using MPEG repeat flags for 24p? Thought few program sources actually did that. -- John

I think that if a GOP contains repeated fields the encoder will still take advantage of the redundancy. The repeat flags work much better of course.

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post #30 of 77 Old 10-05-2007, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhufnagel View Post

Heroes and Sunday Night Football are basically the only shows I consistantly watch on NBC. Heroes looks great, but SNF looks terrible.The local affiliates news programs look very good also. I feel it has something to do with the equipment the network uses for live feeds. Are they using true HD equipment on the field?

SNF HD looks just as good as the local and NBC Nightly News HD segments. No serious macroblocking/pixelation issues that I can see. Not quite as good as CBS, but quite good enough. NBC Primetime HD looks great too. And that's with the usual WeatherMinus sub on WXIA in the ATL (CBS has no sub here, I think).

Golf is certainly abysmal nationwide for all the reasons mentioned before (garish colors, brightness issues, use of SD handhelds, etc.) but SNF and primetime HD problems must be local issues.
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