Is NBC the new TNT? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

The problem with that is, other than analog OTA and analog cable, the TV tells you not only what channel you're on, but what program is on. My TV even does this for digital OTA. In fact, it also tells me the rating, meaning those excessively huge black boxes are becoming unnecessary.

Actually it is possible to identify the program on analog as well. The call letters, program title and rating can all be sent via xds along with the closed caption data.
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post #182 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Luminance is a component of the color space. You can't have chroma without luminance. They both effect each other. Color is merely the increase of one portion of the signal and the reduction of another.

Yes, but you are talking about the old NTSC color television. When there is lack of color, which is black going to 100% white, there is zero color subcarrier modulation. The TV just turns on all three colors equally. No color gamma to worry about.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that actually doing 100% white is a good thing. Having a high component of white at a high modulation, like small white text on a dark background, can result in "buzzing" on older sets, as the high frequency component gets into the audio subcarrier. But that hasn't been a problem with new technology NTSC sets in a long time.

100% white is not illegal, just frowned upon.

I just looked at a Journeyman image that I captured and looked at the level values of the white in the text and the bug. Nothing is over the standard white level of 235. The text white is actually between 182 and 188. The santa hat is 234 and the peacock is 235. All within accepted NTSC modulation levels.

So, I don't know where the 100% white came from, since it certainly isn't there.

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post #183 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by hdguru View Post

One of the big reasons you see them promoting the current show is channel surfing. They are trying to identify the on-going program to those folks who are simply surfing by, hoping they'll stop and try it out. Their thinking is similar when promoting other shows as at least 50% of the viewers don't really go thru the complete channel line-up/schedule...and they are trying to put a thought in their mind to "check this one out."

Sorry, but that is a load of crap. Those stupid "you are now watching" snipes are only on for a few seconds. The odds of someone landing on that damn snipe while channel surfing is slim-to-none.

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post #184 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Sorry, but that is a load of crap. Those stupid "you are now watching" snipes are only on for a few seconds. The odds of someone landing on that damn snipe while channel surfing is slim-to-none.

People "channel surf" at different rates. Someone might be drawn into something for a while, long enough to see a "you're watching" pop-up that will get them looking for the same show in the future.

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post #185 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Yes, but you are talking about the old NTSC color television. When there is lack of color, which is black going to 100% white, there is zero color subcarrier modulation. The TV just turns on all three colors equally. No color gamma to worry about.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that actually doing 100% white is a good thing. Having a high component of white at a high modulation, like small white text on a dark background, can result in "buzzing" on older sets, as the high frequency component gets into the audio subcarrier. But that hasn't been a problem with new technology NTSC sets in a long time.

100% white is not illegal, just frowned upon.

I just looked at a Journeyman image that I captured and looked at the level values of the white in the text and the bug. Nothing is over the standard white level of 235. The text white is actually between 182 and 188. The santa hat is 234 and the peacock is 235. All within accepted NTSC modulation levels.

So, I don't know where the 100% white came from, since it certainly isn't there.

Here's the thing:

I didn't break out the vector scope to measure it. My original comment was meant to be sarcastic, and not a technical assessment. I could care less what the actual values are - it was flipping white off the scale compared to the video around it. That was my point. It was so bright, it was ANNOYING and DISTRACTING.

Likewise, just because the audio in ads isn't registering above proper levels, doesn't mean the lack of contrast in the audio doesn't make it SEEM louder compared to the greater contrast in the TV program.

In a sense, the bug was like an ad yelling at you - without the audio.
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post #186 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

People "channel surf" at different rates. Someone might be drawn into something for a while, long enough to see a "you're watching" pop-up that will get them looking for the same show in the future.

People who channel surf are not the intended viewership. They never stay on a single channel. You want warm bodies that will commit to a show and stay there long enough to register a usable rating.
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post #187 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

People "channel surf" at different rates. Someone might be drawn into something for a while, long enough to see a "you're watching" pop-up that will get them looking for the same show in the future.

Might. But, as pointed out by others, today's cable and satellite boxes tell you what show you are watching when you surf to it. The stupid frakin' snipe is useless.

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post #188 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

I didn't break out the vector scope to measure it. My original comment was meant to be sarcastic, and not a technical assessment. I could care less what the actual values are - it was flipping white off the scale compared to the video around it. That was my point. It was so bright, it was ANNOYING and DISTRACTING.

Sorry, missed the sarcasm. I only caught the technical part. Otherwise I totally agree with you.

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Likewise, just because the audio in ads isn't registering above proper levels, doesn't mean the lack of contrast in the audio doesn't make it SEEM louder compared to the greater contrast in the TV program.

Ya, you just gotta love audio compression - NOT! Because I capture the show I want to see on my computer and then edit out the commercial breaks, I never hear the audio these days. There are exceptions for the Mac vs Windblows ads. Those are extremely funny and don't use audio compression to "yell" at you. I hate Windblows and love those ads, which are right on the mark.

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In a sense, the bug was like an ad yelling at you - without the audio.

I like that. Well said.

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post #189 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

People who channel surf are not the intended viewership. They never stay on a single channel. You want warm bodies that will commit to a show and stay there long enough to register a usable rating.

And only then if they are part of one of the few households that are part of the Nielsen ratings stable.

Ratings are another thorn in my side. Even though Nielsen says that the math models statistically say that their sample is good enough, I say bull-crap. To me, the only good sample is a 100% sample. But that is never going to happen.

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post #190 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Might. But, as pointed out by others, today's cable and satellite boxes tell you what show you are watching when you surf to it. The stupid frakin' snipe is useless.

Maybe, if you're using a cable or satellite box (or a television capable of displaying PSIP data or whatever data was encoded in the VBI on analog channels, if either is properly encoded in the signal). Maybe your hypothetical channel surfer doesn't think to check this--if he or she even knows how--before he or she loses interest and moves on, which will certainly happen at the next interstitial ad (thinking, "hmmm, that was an interesting scene of whatever it was"). Obviously these things are not helpful to everyone but there's a chance that it might help some. And they're not really trying to "help" so much as "seduce" .

If these things really bother you, then stop watching the broadcasters who use them and make sure that you tell them that you're stopping watching and why. Maybe they'll take notice and change. I don't think that it bothers many people (if it did, you'd think that TNT--who I believe have been doing it longest--would have gotten enough complaints to stop by now), so I think it's more likely that we'll see more of it, particularly more brief overlay product ads. It's perfect for low-budget local advertisers who can't easily afford to produce filmed interstitial ads.

I just fast-forwarded through a couple of programs that I watched yesterday and was shocked by how much of that stuff was inserted--I don't even notice any of it anymore. (I've been rewatching the start of the season of Friday Night Lights and watched the first four episodes). Like I said, I'm not watching broadcast television expecting the highest quality A/V experience, and even with overlay ads, network ID bugs and occasional TV ratings icons, the quality of the experience has been improved by a order of magnitude with HD video and surround sound. Most of my favorite shows are on national over-the-air broadcast TV, and they're certainly worth every penny that I pay for them.

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post #191 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Maybe your hypothetical channel surfer doesn't think to check this.

No checking necessary. It is automatic. You change the channel, the box displays on the screen what it is you just switched to, and after a few seconds, goes away.

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If these things really bother you, then stop watching the broadcasters who use them and make sure that you tell them that you're stopping watching and why.

I've done just that and have posted my frustration on my web site.

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post #192 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 12:00 PM
 
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Sorry, but to me it is still contempt of the viewers. You can respect the investors by not pissing off your customers.

Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. My point is that contempt requires intent, and I'll bet you dollars-to-donuts that there is absolutely no intent to show contempt towards viewers. They simply are balancing the positives and negatives, and making the best decision with regard to their actual obligations.
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post #193 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 12:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

But, what is stopping me is that the channels I am interested in are adding these stupid snipes and constant textual bugs. So far HDNet has resisted, but for how long?

I don't remember who said it, but I'm pretty sure someone said it earlier in this thread: Going forward, things will go in only one direction, and that is that generally only way to get high quality HD without bugs is via HD-DVD or bluRay. Unless you're paying $7.99 for a movie via Pay Per View, you're not going to have pristine unadulterated content.
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post #194 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. My point is that contempt requires intent, and I'll bet you dollars-to-donuts that there is absolutely no intent to show contempt towards viewers. They simply are balancing the positives and negatives, and making the best decision with regard to their actual obligations.

I wish I could find the link to the newspaper article (I think it was the New York TImes) where a network executive was specifically asked about the snipes and how viewers do not like them. The basic response was that they know they are not liked and are willing to take the flack for using them.

If that isn't contempt, I don't know what it.

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post #195 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 01:05 PM
 
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I wish you could find the link. I bet if you do, I can explain to you how it isn't contempt but rather acknowledgment and even, to some extent, respect. I think the difference is that I tend to look at it from a perspective that has nothing to do with whether I like it or not (I don't). Rather, I try to understand what the other person (in this case, the executive) is saying, in the context of what his/her objectives and obligations are. That way, something I don't like can end up being something that is still not necessarily a good thing, but not a personal insult to me.
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post #196 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 01:08 PM
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What, did the guy say "I don't give a flyin' fig what the viewers like and don't like--they'll watch the programming with the snipes and they'll keep their friggin' mouths shut!" Now that would show contempt for the viewers .

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post #197 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

I don't remember who said it, but I'm pretty sure someone said it earlier in this thread: Going forward, things will go in only one direction, and that is that generally only way to get high quality HD without bugs is via HD-DVD or bluRay. Unless you're paying $7.99 for a movie via Pay Per View, you're not going to have pristine unadulterated content.

Unfortunately that is going to be a potential catch-22 situation. If viewers stop watching network TV, there won't be any ad $$$ to support program creation, other than the increase in lame reality shows. If the scripted dramas can't be made, then there won't be any clutter-free DVDs being released either.

It is all going to cascade upon itself sooner or later.

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post #198 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

What, did the guy say "I don't give a flyin' fig what the viewers like and don't like--they'll watch the programming with the snipes and they'll keep their friggin' mouths shut!" Now that would show contempt for the viewers .

No executive would be that stupid to come out and say that to the press. You have to read between the words.

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post #199 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 01:23 PM
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Yea, it's very respectful to say you don't care what the viewers do or don't like.

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post #200 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

I wish you could find the link.

I do not remember where I saw the story. I read so many things I do no remember if it was something I got via e-mail (from a mail list), a TVGuide posting, etc.

Obviously we have different takes on this situation. At least we both do not like the practice.

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post #201 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 01:51 PM
 
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

What, did the guy say "I don't give a flyin' fig what the viewers like and don't like--they'll watch the programming with the snipes and they'll keep their friggin' mouths shut!" Now that would show contempt for the viewers .

Exactly. I think it is really critical to separate what people are really saying from what would be easier to argue against.

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Unfortunately that is going to be a potential catch-22 situation. If viewers stop watching network TV, there won't be any ad $$$ to support program creation, other than the increase in lame reality shows. If the scripted dramas can't be made, then there won't be any clutter-free DVDs being released either. It is all going to cascade upon itself sooner or later.

One thing that often gets overlooked is that, sometimes, there simply isn't a viable business model, and indeed, sometimes conditions change that a viable business model dies, replaced by an environment where no viable business model exists for the same service. Commercial television can indeed be heading in that direction. Even though DVRs have had a pretty minimal impact so far, commercial avoidance is becoming a bigger issue.

Let me be clearer about that: The viable business model for NBC, TNT, etc., is that the advertisements get people to buy things, and that makes it worthwhile to advertisers to pay for those advertisements. Those payments represent the only way networks can fulfill their obligations to their owners, i.e., it represents the viability of their business model.

So back to commercial avoidance; I'm going to word this very explicitly. The specific words underlined are critically important: The less people buy things because of the commercials included in television shows, the crappier television will get, because there simply won't be the money there -- the viable business model -- to support quality television.

It isn't a matter of whether the commercials are seen or watched... it actually matters how much we buy things because of watching them. As the general public has gotten more jaded, becoming more dissatisfied with being "sold to", the more the quality of the television programs offered is being undercut. Note that this has nothing to do with snipes or bugs or billboards. Before we get back to that, we're already heading down the path towards crappier television. Indeed, to the extent these things get folks to buy more stuff (and despite your feeling to the contrary, they actually do), they're actually helping reverse that trend towards crappier television.

A new viable business model? How about a $2 fee for every 42 minute, commercial-free, bug-free, iron-clad DRM-protected episode you decide to watch? That is what I believe it will take. If the DRM isn't iron-clad, up that to $3. Without DRM, the whole model falls apart, i.e., the business model is not viable.

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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

No executive would be that stupid to come out and say that to the press. You have to read between the words.

Reading between the words means that you're creating the contempt for viewers, rather than the executive.

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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

I do not remember where I saw the story.

I'm going to assume that you made up the contempt until you can provide a reference. If you don't have the evidence, benefit of the doubt towards the person you're trying to condemn is warranted.

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Obviously we have different takes on this situation. At least we both do not like the practice.

It is important to understand, though, that what people "like" is irrelevant except when it comes to love and hobbies. In a business circumstance, what matters is behaviors -- what people actually do.
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post #202 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

So far HDNet has resisted, but for how long?

They tried it, and then removed it after a few weeks of people complaining on here.

HEY, you viewing dumbasses!

NOW!
NEW!
ALL NEW!

(insert name of show here)
NEXT!
8/9 PM ET
TUESDAY!
NEXT WEEK!
IN 2 WEEKS!


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post #203 of 299 Old 12-21-2007, 02:10 PM
 
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HDNet will probably be the last one to go. With respect to Mr. Cuban, AFAIC, HDNet won't have much going for it if they get rid of their high bit-rate and unadulterated presentation.
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post #204 of 299 Old 01-01-2008, 05:09 PM
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NBC's logo nonsense continues in 2008.

Now they are using a solid logo with the Olympic Rings below it.
The rings are so small they are vibrating on screen.

NBC is also still doing the spam text above the logo promoting other shows.

Does anyone have a link to where we can write NBC to complain about this?

I don't understand why a network with the fewest viewers to start with would want to annoy the people that still watching their channel with this horrible logo setup.

There is no reason in 2008 for any network to use a 100% solid bug logo.
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post #205 of 299 Old 01-01-2008, 06:54 PM
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Apparantly "transparent" is not in their vocabulary. There are some e-mail addresses for NBC marketing idiots in this thread. Let your local station know as well. I have not watched NBC except for football in the last month or so. What reality show crap are they promoting now?

Noticed BBC America (SD, I know) is plastering promos now on top of their logo, in addition to the name of the show in the lower left. Enough already.
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post #206 of 299 Old 01-01-2008, 07:14 PM
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Bugs are probably going to get worse as networks and stations drop their SD distribution. They may always put it in the safe 4:3 area to ensure that viewers with down converters see it. I could see NBC putting right in the center.
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post #207 of 299 Old 01-01-2008, 09:01 PM
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On the plus side...the writing above the bug (NBC) isn't as bright white as it used to be.
As for BBC America they've been one of the worst over-polluters of the screen for a long time now. Really obnoxious!
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post #208 of 299 Old 01-02-2008, 12:23 AM
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Ratings are another thorn in my side. Even though Nielsen says that the math models statistically say that their sample is good enough, I say bull-crap. To me, the only good sample is a 100% sample. But that is never going to happen.

Totally agree. I never understood it either.. if it's not 100% then its useless.

I do wonder though, if it was 100%... how different TV would be, and what the true ratings of certain shows are with a 100% sample.
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post #209 of 299 Old 01-02-2008, 07:52 AM
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Totally agree. I never understood it either.. if it's not 100% then its useless.

I do wonder though, if it was 100%... how different TV would be, and what the true ratings of certain shows are with a 100% sample.

It's an extremely complex problem, which, with the ever increasing use of DVRs, is growing more complex by the day. As imperfect as the Nielsen ratings probably are, they're one of the few tools that the advertisers have for gauging the effectiveness of television as a medium for their business. Because of DVRs, new tools are becoming available to them. As I mentioned in a previous post, TiVo is selling second-by-second data about how people are using their products to watch television (see this). With this information, they can see the delay between air-date and viewing, whether they zap the ads and which ads they actually stop and watch. I'm sure that the cable providers are adding similar data acquisition to their leased DVRs, if they haven't already.

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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post #210 of 299 Old 01-02-2008, 09:30 AM
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Totally agree. I never understood it either.. if it's not 100% then its useless.

I do wonder though, if it was 100%... how different TV would be, and what the true ratings of certain shows are with a 100% sample.

You should to take a course in statistics. Aside from helping you understand this issue, it would help you better understand the world in general. I consider it one of the most useful courses I took.
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