Joss Whedon's 'Dollhouse' w/ Eliza Dushku on FOX - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 2557 Old 02-21-2009, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt L View Post

Got around to watching the second "Pilot" episode and have to say it was MUCH better that the pilot that ran last week. It made more sense and flowed better. Odds are it was recut too since it referenced last weeks plot lines.

One thing that puzzles me. The guy that attacked the group in the van was discovered dead. They seem to extract memories and such from dead people to reuse as needed. Why not extract his info and discover who was behind the attack? Also it would seem possible that an entire identity could be transfered from what we've seen, why no mention of that?

I didn't get the impression they get memories from dead people, they get memories and imprints and that some of them have died, like the negotiator last week, they didn't discover until after the fact that she had actually committed suicide.
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post #272 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 12:40 AM
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One thing I was wondering during the last episode was, don't any of the other "dolls" ever get chosen or hired? Why only Echo all the time? Even if she is the favorite, she can't be the only one. Seems to me since they're always showing them there, they'd have to bring some of the others into the stories some time.

Really, I think some here are trying to read into the show more depth of intrigue than it has (and possibly will ever have). I don't think there's as much going on behind the scenes or as secretly as you're expecting, or at least not that they'll ever find important enough to the viewers for the writers to actually think about and work hard enough on to develop. I don't think the show's going for that level of sophistication.

But then, maybe I'm wrong. Doesn't seem like that's a priority for them at all so far, though. Just enjoy E.D.'s tight little butt and the sexual aspects of it every week and leave it at that. You're wracking your brains over nothing. That's likely all you're going to get. I think they're probably going to keep it simple.
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post #273 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

One thing I was wondering during the last episode was, don't any of the other "dolls" ever get chosen or hired? Why only Echo all the time? Even if she is the favorite, she can't be the only one. Seems to me since they're always showing them there, they'd have to bring some of the others into the stories some time.

Just watch the credits: Eliza Dushku is the Star AND Exec Producer, of course the other actives are just window dressing. Seriously though, I agree, they'll have to give them a little to do later in the series other than just practice martial arts and wonder around with black stares on their faces.

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post #274 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 12:21 PM
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Seriously though, I agree, they'll have to give them a little to do later in the series other than just practice martial arts and wonder around with black stares on their faces.

..and perhaps spend time working in a coal mine while speculating on what could have been?
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post #275 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Rammitinski View Post

One thing I was wondering during the last episode was, don't any of the other "dolls" ever get chosen or hired? Why only Echo all the time? Even if she is the favorite, she can't be the only one. Seems to me since they're always showing them there, they'd have to bring some of the others into the stories some time.

Really, I think some here are trying to read into the show more depth of intrigue than it has (and possibly will ever have). I don't think there's as much going on behind the scenes or as secretly as you're expecting, or at least not that they'll ever find important enough to the viewers for the writers to actually think about and work hard enough on to develop. I don't think the show's going for that level of sophistication.

But then, maybe I'm wrong. Doesn't seem like that's a priority for them at all so far, though. Just enjoy E.D.'s tight little butt and the sexual aspects of it every week and leave it at that. You're wracking your brains over nothing. That's likely all you're going to get. I think they're probably going to keep it simple.

I think it's in Whedon's DNA to produce shows with a strong mythological element. This show will be no different and the backstory of the Dollhouse will be tres cool, I'm sure. No doubt he would prefer to do this series as a straight up serial (so would I). But he's under a lot of pressure from the network to get an audience built-up as quickly as possible. They want him to emphasize the weekly adventures that the actives experience, and they want to get Eliza established as the star. That's what these first two episodes have been intended to do, with limited success. I think you'll see the other actives take center stage for entire episodes just as any series gives co-stars their "own" episodes from time to time. Eliza can't be expected to be in nearly every scene every week, and she won't. But they've got certain goals they want to accomplish right off the bat, and that means a lot of Eliza in these initial episodes. I, for one, don't have a problem with that.
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post #276 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 12:31 PM
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..and perhaps spend time working in a coal mine while speculating on what could have been?

Thanks man, I'm usually pretty picky about typos in my posts, but when I mess up I mess up good.

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post #277 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 03:42 PM
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Well, let's see- they've put this in the "death slot" of Friday night- and not early enough to where you can watch it and then go out, at least not unless you have a really forgiving GF. This to me is what bodes the most ill for this show.

They've sicced the FBI or whoever the guy is on the Dollhouse firm pretty early in the proceedings.

How are we supposed to believe that this firm can keep their location a secret if they are depending upon commerce and people coming to use their services?

Joss comes up with a rerun of one of his most unattractive concepts from late Buffy- the geeky mastermind, with beaucoup of the quips that get really old, really fast.

Who is sympathetic? Who are we supposed to identify with, other than Eliza- and that mainly because she is a fox, and sort of sympathetic as a lost, used youngster. But she has no consistent personality. Her minder is good, but he's really about it.

The jist of what Dollhouse is about seems to come down to high roller prostitution. Is a show with this as its basis going to be allowed to stick around very long on any network, let alone FOX??

Maybe as the series proceeds we will be able to fill in the gaps, but that is putting a lot of faith in FOX allowing this to stick around long enough to gain an audience.

Doctor Horrible was a lot simpler, and a lot better. Dollhouse may have seemed a lot better when it was conceived and pitched than when the actual rationale of the show was spelled out. I don't know how many shows the network contracted with Joss to produce, but I bet there will only be that many and no more.

Whedon is a singular talent but it seems to me this has flop written all over it. I hope I am wrong, but this will have to get a whole lot better really fast.

CW Hinkle
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post #278 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 04:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shaded Dogfood View Post

The jist of what Dollhouse is about seems to come down to high roller prostitution. Is a show with this as its basis going to be allowed to stick around very long on any network, let alone FOX??

Joss has gone to great lengths to try to assure everyone who will listen that that's not the fundamental premise of the show, that it is indeed far more than that. But that's the most salacious aspect, so it's gotten the most attention. Why not give it more than 2 episodes before saddling it with that blanket condemnation?
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post #279 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 04:08 PM
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Joss has gone to great lengths to try to assure everyone who will listen that that's not the fundamental premise of the show, that it is indeed far more than that. But that's the most salacious aspect, so it's gotten the most attention. Why not give it more than 2 episodes before saddling it with that blanket condemnation?

We'll all give it a chance, but so far two out of three assignments, she's slept with the other party. The opening sequence of the show has her disrobing in front of a mirror, putting on stockings, a lot of the intro definitely seems to imply sexual overtones, they certainly seem to be emphasizing it a lot so far.
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post #280 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 04:08 PM
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From what I saw, only last episode, Total Recall came to mind.

"The purpose of diplomacy is to prolong a crisis." Spock, Mark of Gideon, TOS
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post #281 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 04:14 PM
 
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We'll all give it a chance, but so far two out of three assignments, she's slept with the other party. The opening sequence of the show has her disrobing in front of a mirror, putting on stockings, a lot of the intro definitely seems to imply sexual overtones, they certainly seem to be emphasizing it a lot so far.

Well, they're trying to build an audience and their target demographic is pretty predictable. Sex sells, and they gotta' do a lot of selling here at the outset. (Considering the ratings, it hasn't worked real well, but it probably worked better than some high-concept mythology & dialog-heavy slower paced introduction would have.) But I take Joss at his word that high-class hookin' is not all, or even a large percentage, of the point of the show.
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post #282 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 04:25 PM
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Well, they're trying to build an audience and their target demographic is pretty predictable. Sex sells, and they gotta' do a lot of selling here at the outset. (Considering the ratings, it hasn't worked real well, but it probably worked better than some high-concept mythology & dialog-heavy slower paced introduction would have.) But I take Joss at his word that high-class hookin' is not all, or even a large percentage, of the point of the show.

Like I said, I'll be there, hope we get the chance to see where it's going. Maybe the big set and all the up front costs can enable the show to run a little cheaper in the long run, I've got faith Joss will tell a good story, just hope we get to hear it.
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post #283 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 07:39 PM
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They seem to extract memories and such from dead people to reuse as needed.

Where's you get that? I've certainly seen no indication that they can extract memories from the dead.

Yes, the "donor" for the hostage negotiator template is (now) dead, but I had the distinct impression that she died (much) later, after she was recorded.
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post #284 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 07:40 PM
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Sorry...but I haven't fallen in love with the show yet...and I'm a huge Whedon fan...

It's simply too much of the same thing we've already seen from Hollywood...its too ordinary. Every scene in the Dollhouse reminds me of The Island (even down to her name) and I'm just not that fascinated with or really care about any of the characters.

I don't know...I'll give it a few more but I am really not getting hooked to have the carpet pulled out in 5 weeks...call me jaded

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post #285 of 2557 Old 02-22-2009, 10:52 PM
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Where's you get that? I've certainly seen no indication that they can extract memories from the dead.

Yes, the "donor" for the hostage negotiator template is (now) dead, but I had the distinct impression that she died (much) later, after she was recorded.

Hmmm, my thought was they had to be dead to extract the info, I guess that is just my take on it. I think that is something they need to explore plotwise.
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post #286 of 2557 Old 02-23-2009, 07:50 AM
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I'm not sure if I'm not digging this show because it's not very interesting. Or if because it's not Firefly.

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post #287 of 2557 Old 02-23-2009, 08:13 AM
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I thought this ep was a HUGE improvement over the first ep. The organization seems much more sinister, Echos handler is more callous, and the altrusitic attitude is gone. This is a more mercenary organization, combo brothel, spy org, and assasination squad, not "Highway to Heaven" with boobs.

I think the show was sold with the idea there can be virtually limitless "engagements"; tacked on, Burn Notice style, is the over plot with Alpha and Echos "relationship". So I expect a lot of one off engagements bookended with other stuff, whihc hopefully will be interesting enough to carry the show.

I'm not convinced that any imprinted "Handicaps" are not purely psychological in nature with physical props. The line about altering the optic nerves or whatever was just bad technobabble. I fully expect Echo to eventually "break programming" and discard an imprinted handicap at a dramatically important time. I think the glasses and inhaler are just to reinforce the imprint. Anyway, no point arguring about it as they are the least important aspect of the show, IMHO.

Amy Acker is still listed as a guest star, so I expect her to kick the bucket soon Her scar make-up is probably needlessly expensive to apply, but her character seems to be an important one, so I bet Alpha will catch up with her and she will be replaced. Seeing how beat up Echo gets, the house doc must have their hands full. I wonder if they bother to imprint the drones with memories of training accidents or just to ignore their brusies and cuts. Though Echo seems to pop out of the memory chair pretty healed up, if you ask me.

Did anyone else think she slipped off the cliff because her body wasn't up to the demands of the imprint? Perhaps it was just a joke, as she seemed to laugh it off. I wonder if they will address the idea that just because a brain has the memories of a master martial artist doesn't mean the body has the muscle strength and coordination to pull off the moves. Probably not, as the drones seem to nothing more than Tai Chi and swimming, not weapons training and stunt driving :P

So, is the consensus that Alpha set up the entire thing, or was he somehow just following Echo around and saw an opportunity? The bowhunter guy seemed willing to go through a LOT of trouble just to get a girl to kill, since he was willing to hire a hit man to kill her team and a park ranger, I gotta think that simply plucking a girl off the street for this scenario was well within his ability. So he must have wanted a particular girl, hence the use of a doll. Was Echo programmed with some of the memories of his father (he seemed to have some daddy issues)? Her use of the shoulder slap was either imprinted or something she remembered from him.
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post #288 of 2557 Old 02-23-2009, 08:39 AM
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I liked this ep better than the first, but still I was disappointed in it. Did anyone really not see the "hunting humans" thing coming from a mile away?

My biggest gripe with the show is there is no lingering personality in Echo. She's basically just a new character every week. Did I miss what she did that she agreed to be a part of this for 5 years?

I also feel I know where the show is heading. I assume they will start working something into the story where she actually remembers bits and pieces of her former life, which will turn into her escaping and then be on a quest to remember who she is (which will be the cliche "amnesia caused by a secret organization" storyline that we've seen in a million shows and movies).

I don't know...just not digging it yet, but it's only been 2 eps, so I will not pass judgement yet....I've made that mistake before with Firefly which regretably I quit watching a few eps in, and then regretted when I revisted the series later.
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post #289 of 2557 Old 02-23-2009, 08:41 AM
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So, is the consensus that Alpha set up the entire thing, or was he somehow just following Echo around and saw an opportunity? The bowhunter guy seemed willing to go through a LOT of trouble just to get a girl to kill, since he was willing to hire a hit man to kill her team and a park ranger, I gotta think that simply plucking a girl off the street for this scenario was well within his ability. So he must have wanted a particular girl, hence the use of a doll. Was Echo programmed with some of the memories of his father (he seemed to have some daddy issues)? Her use of the shoulder slap was either imprinted or something she remembered from him.

His screening interview gave the impression he had plucked numerous girls off the street for exactly this purpose and was getting tired of how easy they were for him to track and kill. He didn't say that in so many words, of course, but that idea was conveyed pretty clearly I thought. I don't think he wanted any specific girl, just one who was very outdoorsy and had some solid survival skills. The man-hunting-man plot is pretty unoriginal, but it was pretty well executed at least. To be sporting he shoud've had her imprinted with some special forces training or something. Those Most Dangerous Game hunters always have such a bizarre sense of what makes a fair hunt. At least he was bowhunting instead of using a sniper rifle.

I have no idea how this tied with Alpha at all. If Alpha has really been rogue for only 3 months, would he have had time to put together the resources for this kind of thing? And for what purpose? He seemingly left Echo alive for a reason, why hire some psychopath to hunt her? If he showed up on the scene because he's been following Echo to keep her safe, you'd think he'd have shown up a bit earlier during the hunt when she was in more danger. And why kill the dude in the van at all? It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out, assuming the show makes it.

On the whole I'm not super impressed with these first couple episodes, but then again I thought Buffy was extraordinarily silly when I first started watching that and it turned out to be an absolutely amazing series. I don't see this show being groundbreaking or being as enthralling as Buffy, but I'm happy to keep watching for now.
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post #290 of 2557 Old 02-23-2009, 09:00 AM
 
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I liked this ep better than the first, but still I was disappointed in it. Did anyone really not see the "hunting humans" thing coming from a mile away?

My biggest gripe with the show is there is no lingering personality in Echo. She's basically just a new character every week. Did I miss what she did that she agreed to be a part of this for 5 years?

I wouldn't say we saw it coming a mile away, but certainly a week away when they showed the previews of this ep at the end of the first ep. I gotta' stop watching those blasted things.

You saw the very first scene of the first ep, right? When Caroline was being interviewed by Adelle for the Dollhouse, she mentioned she was in deep do-do for "trying to do the right thing, trying to make a difference". She relived those moments during her hallucinations in the woods, Eko seeing Caroline as fragments of a drug-induced dream. What it was she did will gradually be revealed as the series progresses. I'm guessing maybe she was a wide-eyed college student innocent who got recruited into something big, bad, and nasty that she didn't understand. It went south, and/or she was set up to take the fall and she had to disappear, pronto. Somehow she found out about the Dollhouse, or else she was sent there by some nefarious dude who has some kind of agenda for her.
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post #291 of 2557 Old 02-23-2009, 12:14 PM
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I echo (pardon the pun) opinions expressed by others that the show has been disappointing thus far. Despite its excellent cast and beautiful sets it seems to lack something. I also agree that Topher, the wise guy computer nerd, is already tiresome. His character doesn't work, it seems to me. There have been holes in the plots big enough to drive 18 wheelers through but I suppose that's to be expected in a fantasy show.

Despite my reservations, the show's terrific production values and the promise of interesting revelations to come are enough to keep me around for awhile.
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post #292 of 2557 Old 02-23-2009, 02:58 PM
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From what I saw, only last episode, Total Recall came to mind.

I thought it was more reminiscent of the Joe Haldeman's classic "All My Sins Remembered". http://www.amazon.com/All-Sins-Remem.../dp/0380393212

Probably one of my top five favorite science fiction stories.
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post #293 of 2557 Old 02-23-2009, 05:34 PM
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Maybe it's just me but I'm really liking this show. At least it's not another cop show or a medical drama.
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post #294 of 2557 Old 02-24-2009, 12:56 AM
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Maybe it's just me but I'm really liking this show. At least it's not another cop show or a medical drama.

No, instead it's a SciFi cop show medical drama.
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post #295 of 2557 Old 02-24-2009, 07:52 AM
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I learned on TMZ that it is pronounced Dushku as in tush, not douche as in bag.
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post #296 of 2557 Old 02-24-2009, 07:56 AM
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She also says her own full name in the Hulu commercial. I'd trust that before TMZ.
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post #297 of 2557 Old 02-24-2009, 08:45 AM
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No, instead it's a SciFi cop show medical drama.

lol

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post #298 of 2557 Old 02-24-2009, 09:31 AM
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No, instead it's a SciFi cop show medical drama.

SciFi cop show medical drama dating game show.
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post #299 of 2557 Old 02-25-2009, 06:37 AM
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His screening interview gave the impression he had plucked numerous girls off the street for exactly this purpose and was getting tired of how easy they were for him to track and kill.

Hmmm, I didn't get that impression at all. Seemed like he wanted some specific capabilties for his "date" (which later turned out to make her an exciting target), but that liability waiver they made him sign implies they thought they were getting their doll back alive, but maybe roughed up a bit. Otherwise, why would the handlers be concerned when her heart rate spiked and why would the guy hire a hitman to take care of the handlers?

I suspect that Alpha (ugh, I always have this temptation to call him "Adam" and Echo "Eve") killed the guy because he had a part in hurting Echo.
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post #300 of 2557 Old 02-25-2009, 07:17 AM
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I suspect that Alpha killed the guy because he had a part in hurting Echo.

Or the guy was killed to prevent him from leading back to the person who faked the background for the crazy hunter.
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