Joss Whedon's 'Dollhouse' w/ Eliza Dushku on FOX - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by lax01 View Post

I don't see them because I don't care about the show...obviously...I have no buy-in to connect with the characters or the story. Not to mention, I think the whole secret-covert-organization is the most played out concept in the history of television.

Well, not to split hiars, but I think they are hinting that the Dollhouse is a CRIMINAL organization, which would actually be sorta kinda novel

Too early to tell though, they are flopping back and forth between altrusim and greed.

I agree though, this show's cast and writing does not have the instant click of Firefly. That show was just plain legendary in that respect.
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post #362 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jason10mm View Post

I agree though, this show's cast and writing does not have the instant click of Firefly. That show was just plain legendary in that respect.

The difference is, Firefly was an ENSEMBLE cast full of interesting people stuck in the limited space (no pun intended) of a space ship. Each one was immediately identified as having a past you wanted to know about. They were forced to work together to survive, even if they didn't all like each other much.

Not only that, the dialog was tight and witty, especially that of Fillion's character of the captain.

You also had a definite goal in mind for the characters in Firefly: to make money in whatever way necessary, be it stolen goods or stolen people.

The only character's past in Dollhouse that I care to know about is Echo - and I really only care what she did to get into the situation.
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post #363 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 07:44 AM
 
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The only character's past in Dollhouse that I care to know about is Echo - and I really only care what she did to get into the situation.

I think they will eventually develop the other Actives into interesting characters with interesting backstories. Right now the focus is on Echo, and it will always be to a certain extent. But the other characters, especially Sierra, will be brought along as the series progresses. The premise provides lots of opportunities. That's when Joss will start to be Joss, I believe. Coincidentally, that will also likely be when the show's approval rating begins to rise among the fan base. Ratings, well, that's another story.

'Firefly' was easy because it was so perfectly fleshed out from the git-go. He spent years preparing for it, polishing the concept to a fine sheen. But he's going to have to do it the hard way with 'Dollhouse', just like with 'Buffy'. This won't be easy.
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post #364 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by GrouchoDude View Post

I think they will eventually develop the other Actives into interesting characters with interesting backstories. Right now the focus is on Echo, and it will always be to a certain extent. But the other characters, especially Sierra, will be brought along as the series progresses. That's when Joss will start to be Joss, I believe. Coincidentally, that will also likely be when the show's approval rating begins to rise.

The problem is, right now, I can never even remember any of the other characters' names much less give a damn about them. They're disposable carboard standees right now - in short, window dressing...and we're not talking quality drapes, either. These folks are cheap Walmart bubble pack window sheets. That applies to pretty much all the characters, right up to the management and other staff, not just the dolls we see in the background.

The best shows have a teamwork aspect and these characters just always seem to be at odds with each other. It's like Survivor: Alzheimer's Edition, but we can't vote anyone off the island we don't like and the participants are actually encouraged to shower.

In addition, what makes for an interesting character is often the very thing that makes the dolls uncompelling: a personality that makes them unique. When you have a buch of zombie blank slates roaming about that you can infuse with any personality, it makes it hard to care anything about them - and I really don't at this point.

While I hate remakes and rehashes, I think it might have been better to have more of a Charlie's Angels concept here, where the dolls know who they are and really have to pretend and stay in a character, rather than just be programmed that way.
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post #365 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 08:08 AM
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"It's like Survivor: Alzheimer's Edition"

LOL


And I agree, why should I care about any of them? I don't know them and really I'm not sure that I want to.
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post #366 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 08:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

In addition, what makes for an interesting character is often the very thing that makes the dolls uncompelling: a personality that makes them unique. When you have a buch of zombie blank slates roaming about that you can infuse with any personality, it makes it hard to care anything about them - and I really don't at this point.

Well, that's what I meant by giving the show a chance to get around to them. I'm sure they all have fascinating backstories that will gradually be told, and those backstories will influence the kind of imprints they become. Then their real personalities will begin to emerge, like Echo and now Sierra, and they will gradually become fully formed characters. There are tremendous story opportunities with this premise and I believe Joss will take advantage of them. Eliza being his muse aside, I think that's why he got involved with the project. But right now, the priority is to attract eyeballs, which may necessitate a particular approach in the first few episodes. And a lot of skin. Not that I'm complaining.
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post #367 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 08:25 AM
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Well if you don't care about the plot and don't like the characters why in the world are you watching the show? If you've already made up your mind you don't care about these characters what do you think is going to change your mind?

And you guys really need to get on with life as regards to Firefly. It's gone. It's never coming back. Get over it already. How long has it been?

I have never seen a show when so much attention is drawn to the shows executive producer then this one. It almost sounds like this guy can walk on water.
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post #368 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 09:02 AM
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Well if you don't care about the plot and don't like the characters why in the world are you watching the show? If you've already made up your mind you don't care about these characters what do you think is going to change your mind?

Because those are my current impressions. I'm trying to give the show a fighting chance, but it's not making it easy.

Right now, this show is like what you'd get if the shark in Jaws had let the barrel floats wear him down, instead of eating the captain, sinking the boat and bearing down Brody even as he's lining up the rifle sight.

Where you have shows like Lost that are the equivalant of "Rocky Road", The Dollhouse is like plain vanilla with a few jimmies that accidently fell into the mix - pretty much a surprise or two (with a few bits of pleasant color), but mostly bland and lacking real substance.
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post #369 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 09:38 AM
 
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NetworkTV = buzzkill

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post #370 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by jason10mm View Post

Well, not to split hiars, but I think they are hinting that the Dollhouse is a CRIMINAL organization, which would actually be sorta kinda novel

not if you've seen Alias.


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post #371 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

not if you've seen Alias.

Wait, so SD6 really wasn't the CIA?! I've been had!!!

Time to update that resume on Monster before Old Man Sloan finds out that I know what he knows but I'm pretending not to know in order to make him think that I really don't know what's going on...

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NetworkTV = buzzkill


Like I said, I really want to like the show, based on other stuff Joss has done. However, it's just not coming off as being very good. Lack of good storytelling seems to have been replaced by "oops, my top fell off again" at every turn. Now, I'm certainly a guy and can certainly appreciate some cotton candy, popcorn and fried dough once in a while - I just also recognize the wisdom of eating some vegetables and whole grains, too. Even a serving of meat and potatoes is welcome now and then. Right now, I feel like I'm at a carnival and all I seem to be able to take home are those lame cupie dolls...
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post #372 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 10:54 AM
 
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Right now, I feel like I'm at a carnival and all I seem to be able to take home are those lame cupie dolls...

Well, hopefully, by the end of this season of 'Dollhouse' you'll be walking off with a big stuffed panda! Oh wait, that's LOST...
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post #373 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 01:42 PM
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Is Eliza any better in this show than she was in Buffy?

I have several episodes recorded, but I can't bring myself to watch them yet. ED was one of the most one-dimensional actresses on Buffy. Her portrayal of Faith was downright annoying and bombastic, where a better actress could have taken the same lines of dialog and made the character 10 times more interesting. So it's really difficult for me to get motivated about watching a show that appears to center on her. I'm kind of afraid it will be like watching The Nanny, except with a more hot actress.

So, did she get any better?
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post #374 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 01:53 PM
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Is Eliza any better in this show than she was in Buffy?

I have several episodes recorded, but I can't bring myself to watch them yet. ED was one of the most one-dimensional actresses on Buffy. Her portrayal of Faith was downright annoying and bombastic, where a better actress could have taken the same lines of dialog and made the character 10 times more interesting. So it's really difficult for me to get motivated about watching a show that appears to center on her. I'm kind of afraid it will be like watching The Nanny, except with a more hot actress.

So, did she get any better?

I never saw Buffy so I can't compare, but in my opinion, Dushku is a serviceable actor at best, on screen she looks like she acting, which to me is a sign of poor acting.
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post #375 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 01:55 PM
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I assume you mean Aisha Tyler.


I did, thanks. I suck at names.
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post #376 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 02:04 PM
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Because those are my current impressions. I'm trying to give the show a fighting chance, but it's not making it easy.

Right now, this show is like what you'd get if the shark in Jaws had let the barrel floats wear him down, instead of eating the captain, sinking the boat and bearing down Brody even as he's lining up the rifle sight.

Where you have shows like Lost that are the equivalant of "Rocky Road", The Dollhouse is like plain vanilla with a few jimmies that accidently fell into the mix - pretty much a surprise or two (with a few bits of pleasant color), but mostly bland and lacking real substance.

If you quit every show after the first 3 episodes weren't up to par, you probably wouldn't watch much TV. Some of the best shows out there took awhile to get started. I wouldn't write it off yet, give them a chance to get going. Mentality like this is the reason a lot of great shows got canceled early.
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post #377 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by vfxproducer View Post

Is Eliza any better in this show than she was in Buffy?

I have several episodes recorded, but I can't bring myself to watch them yet. ED was one of the most one-dimensional actresses on Buffy. Her portrayal of Faith was downright annoying and bombastic, where a better actress could have taken the same lines of dialog and made the character 10 times more interesting. So it's really difficult for me to get motivated about watching a show that appears to center on her. I'm kind of afraid it will be like watching The Nanny, except with a more hot actress.

So, did she get any better?

I think she's done good so far. She's going to look like an actor because she is doing something completely different each week. Last week she was a singer, the week before someone who enjoys the outdoors, and the first week she was a hostage negotiator.
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post #378 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 02:43 PM
 
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I think she's done good so far. She's going to look like an actor because she is doing something completely different each week. Last week she was a singer, the week before someone who enjoys the outdoors, and the first week she was a hostage negotiator.

I mentioned in a post a couple weeks back that this is a kind of actor's master class for her. If she works hard at her craft and this show succeeds, she'll have an opportunity to grow significantly as an actress. That will bode well for her future career regardless of what happens with this show.
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post #379 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 06:23 PM
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If you quit every show after the first 3 episodes weren't up to par, you probably wouldn't watch much TV. Some of the best shows out there took awhile to get started. I wouldn't write it off yet, give them a chance to get going. Mentality like this is the reason a lot of great shows got canceled early.

Sorry, but watching TV shouldn't be hard work. It's entertainment. I don't mind having a mind-bending mystery to solve, but "sticking with it" while they find themselves is bogus. For the record, episode 4 is my decider. Sorry, but saying the show somehow gets revolutionarilly better after episode 6 is crap and a scam to keep people watching long enough for them to get more episodes in the can and retool (again) in the process so they can maybe earn a reprieve from the network.

Blame the network, blame Joss, or blame the actors, but don't blame the viewer if they don't finding the show compelling enough to stick with it. It should have worked from episode 1. There are too many other options out there to waste time while shows horse-a** around trying to get it right. Shows like Lost, Life, Medium, Supernatural and Kyle XY all grabbed me withing 2 episodes. There's no excuse for taking more than 3 to prove to the viewer it's a show worth sticking around for.

The real question is, have you ever bailed on a show in less than 5 episodes?
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post #380 of 2557 Old 03-04-2009, 07:53 PM
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I'm sure they all have fascinating backstories that will gradually be told, and those backstories will influence the kind of imprints they become.

That reminds me of something I read from David Mamet in his book "On Directing Film":

"What you're talking about is what the illiterate call the "back story." You don't need it. Remember that the model of the drama is the dirty joke. This joke begins: "A traveling salesman stops at a farmer's door"it does not begin: "Who would think that the two most disparate occupations of agriculture and salesmanship would one day be indissolubly united in our oral literature? Agriculture, that most solitary of pursuits, engendering the qualities of self-reliance and reflection; and salesmanship, in which..."

That sums up nicely what I think the problem with "Dollhouse" is, ambitious exposition getting in the way of good, engaging storytelling.
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post #381 of 2557 Old 03-05-2009, 06:04 AM
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The fanboys and girls will stick with the series, to be sure. It's making sure that others will stick with the series. It doesn't look too good when Whedon enthusiasts are having trouble... let alone the fact of the series being put in one of the worst slots in the week, on a network who likewise rejected Firefly in the same way.

CW Hinkle
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post #382 of 2557 Old 03-05-2009, 06:29 AM
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Hmm, good point about Mamet. I think Dollhouse, as it currently seems to be structured (mostly one offs, not a whole lot of ties between episodes) would have been a GREAT 80's show premise. For whatever reason, our tolerance (at least mine) for episodic stuff has waned, perhaps because we have been spoiled by great serialized shows or we just demand more of the show structure. I never questioned why Michael and KITT lived in a big truck, why the A-team never seemed to make any money, why Master Ninja wasn't making big bucks as a corporate security guy, or how Airwolf was never tracked back to that mountain base. I probably shouldn't be expecting so much of the Dollhouse structure, just enjoy the episodic nature, and wait for reveals to come as they may.

And to the poster a couple posts up, Eliza does seem to portray a somewhat similar character so far, lots of spunk, a touch giggly, but with a brooklyn-style tough girl attitude. Her negotiator role showed her more serious, but even the glasses didn't really make me think she was someone totally different :P Her acting has gotten better than the Faith days (never watched much of Tru Calling) but I still get the impression she is mostly playing herself. Since she is exec producing, I suspect she is playing to her perceived strengths, hopefully as she gets more comfortable she will try more varied stuff.

The Sierra character acted VERY unlike I expected her to as the gushing fan-girl, but that is probably because her only other real appearance was the non-vocal gunslinger and her voice/accent was not what I was expecting.
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post #383 of 2557 Old 03-05-2009, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by NetworkTV View Post

Sorry, but watching TV shouldn't be hard work. It's entertainment. I don't mind having a mind-bending mystery to solve, but "sticking with it" while they find themselves is bogus. For the record, episode 4 is my decider. Sorry, but saying the show somehow gets revolutionarilly better after episode 6 is crap and a scam to keep people watching long enough for them to get more episodes in the can and retool (again) in the process so they can maybe earn a reprieve from the network.

Blame the network, blame Joss, or blame the actors, but don't blame the viewer if they don't finding the show compelling enough to stick with it. It should have worked from episode 1. There are too many other options out there to waste time while shows horse-a** around trying to get it right. Shows like Lost, Life, Medium, Supernatural and Kyle XY all grabbed me withing 2 episodes. There's no excuse for taking more than 3 to prove to the viewer it's a show worth sticking around for.

The real question is, have you ever bailed on a show in less than 5 episodes?

Sorry but it sounds like you have already made up your mind. I happen to like the show and it "grabbed" me at episode 1.
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post #384 of 2557 Old 03-05-2009, 07:31 AM
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I like it, but I don't love it. My wife, who is a big Joss Whedon fan, hates it. Said it was way too confusing. Frankly, whatever the organization is, they are a fairly nasty bunch. At the LEAST they are sending the girls out as high priced hookers

Now about last week's episode.... why did Echo do the head shake at Sierra at the end to make it seem like they weren't friends? How would she possibly have known to do that, and even if she did because of returning pieces how would Sierra have known what she meant? Their resting personalities are fairly... stupid.
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post #385 of 2557 Old 03-05-2009, 07:40 AM
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Their resting personalities are fairly... stupid.

How should there resting personalities be if they are nothing but an empty vessel?
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post #386 of 2557 Old 03-05-2009, 06:49 PM
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Loved Buffy, Angel and especially Firefly. Liked Dr Horrible. I think ED is a hottie.
That said, I find this show UNWATCHABLE after 3 tries.
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post #387 of 2557 Old 03-05-2009, 09:18 PM
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Loved Buffy, Angel and especially Firefly. Liked Dr Horrible. I think ED is a hottie.
That said, I find this show UNWATCHABLE after 3 tries.

So are you done or are you going to come back next week and say, "Loved Buffy, Angel and especially Firefly. Liked Dr Horrible. I think ED is a hottie.
That said, I find this show UNWATCHABLE after 4 tries."?
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post #388 of 2557 Old 03-05-2009, 10:56 PM
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Some of my sweetest girlfriends carry around very little baggage, in that sense the actives are hot.

I think the series is moving along just fine ... I KNOW Joss will write a damn good story
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post #389 of 2557 Old 03-06-2009, 06:01 AM
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How should there resting personalities be if they are nothing but an empty vessel?

I don't really see how you could have an empty vessel... but oh well I hope at the very least we get more of the backstory and the deal with Alpha before this gets canned.
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post #390 of 2557 Old 03-06-2009, 01:13 PM
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Loved Buffy, Angel and especially Firefly. Liked Dr Horrible. I think ED is a hottie.
That said, I find this show UNWATCHABLE after 3 tries.

Any show with Amy Acker (even as just a guest star) is worth watching.
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