Joss Whedon's 'Dollhouse' w/ Eliza Dushku on FOX - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by lax01 View Post

i think i'm almost done with this show...

+1
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post #722 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 02:38 AM
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To me, it was the whole Illyria role that showed me what a great actress she was. Before that, I had always assumed that Amy was basically a real-life Fred (without the whole demon dimension part). Both from Texas, etc...So if she was playing a version of herself, who knew she could act?

Well, Illyria was pretty far from Fred and she really pulled it off (especially when she played Illyria playing Fred---wow!)

Oh I SO agree, Amnesia! When Fred's family came to visit, and suddenly Fred was "back," Illyria did such a good job of "being Fred" she even had Angel and the rest of the regulars fooled until they left and she immediately reverted back to her normal self... The transition BACK was truly impressive -- that range of acting, from one character to another, with the two characters being so very different -- literally in the blink of an eye -- not many actors could have pulled that off as convincingly as Amy Acker did, I think!
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post #723 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 05:52 AM
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It seems that we are discussing the whole Joss universe instead of Dollhouse. I think we are all hopeful that Dollhouse will become another BTVS, Angel, or Firefly. My concern is that wiping the slate clean every week negates strong identification with the characters we want to care about. I believe that the writers either knew this or are coming to this conclusion.

BTW, RIP Andy Hallett (Angel's Lorne), who passed away due to congestive heart failure.
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post #724 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 06:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by mikeewing View Post

It seems that we are discussing the whole Joss universe instead of Dollhouse. I think we are all hopeful that Dollhouse will become another BTVS, Angel, or Firefly. My concern is that wiping the slate clean every week negates strong identification with the characters we want to care about. I believe that the writers either knew this or are coming to this conclusion.

I think FOX wanted to see if they could "proceduralize" this show because the thinking is that's the only way to succeed and make money these days. They want their shows to be "accessible to new viewers" each week. 'Fringe' is having more success with that approach, but it also has the advantage of The Big Karaoke Show as a lead in. But it didn't work out too well with this one, so now they're letting Joss be Joss. Hopefully it's not already too late.
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post #725 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by GrouchoDude View Post

I think FOX wanted to see if they could "proceduralize" this show because the thinking is that's the only way to succeed and make money these days. They want their shows to be "accessible to new viewers" each week. 'Fringe' is having more success with that approach, but it also has the advantage of The Big Karaoke Show as a lead in. But it didn't work out too well with this one, so now they're letting Joss be Joss. Hopefully it's not already too late.

I would suggest that anyone wanting to watch this show fresh to skip episode 2 through 5 as they add absolutely nothing to the show and only distract and confuse the audience. They also leave a very stale taste in your mouth and now, personally, I just don't honestly care what happens to the show. The past 2 episodes, have been undoubtedly been far superior to the ladder, but I think it's the case of too little too late. Fringe definitely had better success because it was consistently strong throughout the entire life of the show and I'm actually looking forward to its' return.

As for absolutely spoiling the "awakening", FOX once again screws the audience by showing us exactly what is going to happen. Way to build up the tension...

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post #726 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by GrouchoDude View Post

I think FOX wanted to see if they could "proceduralize" this show because the thinking is that's the only way to succeed and make money these days. They want their shows to be "accessible to new viewers" each week. 'Fringe' is having more success with that approach, but it also has the advantage of The Big Karaoke Show as a lead in. But it didn't work out too well with this one, so now they're letting Joss be Joss. Hopefully it's not already too late.

The old guy in Fringe is just a little to weird for me, but it is a good show.

Does anyone else think that Tom Lenk (Andrew from BTVS) would have been a better Topher?
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post #727 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by lax01 View Post

As for absolutely spoiling the "awakening", FOX once again screws the audience by showing us exactly what is going to happen. Way to build up the tension...

Although your conclusion that giving even a hint in a preview of what is to come is an inexcusable spoiler is understandable, many viewers believe that such hints are a useful guide to enjoying a future episode. In fact that sort of thing never bothers me and in this case I was glad to have had a sneak peek.
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post #728 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeewing View Post

Does anyone else think that Tom Lenk (Andrew from BTVS) would have been a better Topher?

It actually took me a couple minutes to realize it wasn't Andrew.
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post #729 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 01:04 PM
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lol
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post #730 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 02:27 PM
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Good one. Really fits here well with some.

As for me, I never watch any show because of who directed it. In fact, if I know that beforehand, I put it out of my mind completely. I've been around long enough to know that even the best directors produce absolute clunkers sometimes.

As far as procedural-style being the thing "these days", I disagree. I don't watch any of those primetime procedurals that are on now (hate 'em - too much 'hamming' for me by all involved) - but in the sense that was mentioned, most old, successful shows were that way. You could just tune in anytime and start watching. The Fugitive, for example, was like that (I just thought of that one because I've been watching it occasionally on the local retro channel). It had a simple, basic backstory that they tended to early on (really they just did a short reminder at the beginning of every program) - but every episode could be appreciated for what it was - a good, individual piece of drama.

I think if Dollhouse establishes just a basic backstory, and then goes back to the "individual stories" like the first episodes, but improves upon that, I think that would actually give it a better chance of succeding than that hyperactive mishmosh stuff they've been doing the last couple of episodes that nobody can make heads or tails of if they're just tuning into the show.

"Joss" or no Joss.
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post #731 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 02:34 PM
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There is some truth to that, but you also have shows like Alias, Lost, and 24 where each week builds off the previous week. I think there is a market for both.
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post #732 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 02:42 PM
 
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There is some truth to that, but you also have shows like Alias, Lost, and 24 where each week builds off the previous week. I think there is a market for both.

Not much of one, I'm afraid. The best, smartest, most ambitious shows are usually pure serials like LOST, 24, BSG, Damages and the like, IMO. But they also struggle mightily in the ratings (even LOST and 24 have lost more than half off their Nielsen fastball from their debut).

I disagree with Rammi that proceduralizing 'Dollhouse' will somehow help it survive. I think we're beyond that now. The first 5 episodes showed us that, and I don't think it's possible to do those kind of one-off episodes any "better" than they were done.

This show is going to live or die based on how cool Joss can make the serialized elements, and how much buzz the show can generate. That leads to other profit streams, albeit smaller than the broadcast model, but every little bit counts these days.
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post #733 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GrouchoDude View Post

Not much of one, I'm afraid. The best, smartest, most ambitious shows are usually pure serials like LOST, 24, BSG, Damages and the like, IMO. But they also struggle mightily in the ratings (even LOST and 24 have lost more than half off their Nielsen fastball from their debut).

Agree here....serialized show (once established) really don't gain viewers since they are lost coming into the middle of a show.....they really can only lose viewers as time goes on.

I find more and more my favorite kind of shows are ones that mix both...a procedural show with some ongoing elements. Fringe (while there's much room for improvement) is an example of what I mean. You can watch an episode and it's kindof self-contained so you're not lost in the story, but there's also this ongoing plot that goes throughout the series.

24 is also a nice example....while the season is serialized, the show basically "resets" every season and you can jump in without being lost. That's how Heroes was supposed to be as well. There's not really any other shows (non-reality) that follow this formula that I can think of.
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post #734 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 03:20 PM
 
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24 is also a nice example....while the season is serialized, the show basically "resets" every season and you can jump in without being lost. That's how Heroes was supposed to be as well. There's not really any other shows (non-reality) that follow this formula that I can think of.

That's true about '24'; it's a little different in its formula with each season being its own serialized arc. That's probably why it's still on the air. One of my favorite pure serialized shows currently airing is T:SCC which is, I'm afraid, one of the last of a dying breed. It's a terrific show - great acting, writing, cool plotlines - but it can't draw flies and is a sure bet for cancellation.
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post #735 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 03:30 PM
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With services like hulu and VOD if the studios would let them people could catch up relatively quickly.
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post #736 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 03:45 PM
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That's true about '24'; it's a little different in its formula with each season being its own serialized arc. That's probably why it's still on the air. One of my favorite pure serialized shows currently airing is T:SCC which is, I'm afraid, one of the last of a dying breed. It's a terrific show - great acting, writing, cool plotlines - but it can't draw flies and is a sure bet for cancellation.

Really? I watched TSCC until about two months ago - I thought it was boring, kinda bad acting and never forwarded the plot.
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post #737 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 03:57 PM
 
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Really? I watched TSCC until about two months ago - I thought it was boring, kinda bad acting and never forwarded the plot.

Your loss. These last few episodes leading up to the denouement have been top notch. It's a very good show, soon to be heaped on the serial graveyard with all the others...

But hey, maybe another crime procedural can fill that slot! Or reality show! Why would we want to support smart, adult science fiction? Who needs it? Who wants it? Evidently, not many.
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post #738 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by GrouchoDude View Post

Your loss. These last few episodes leading up to the denouement have been top notch. It's a very good show, soon to be heaped on the serial graveyard with all the others...

But hey, maybe another crime procedural can fill that slot! Or reality show! Why would we want to support smart, adult science fiction? Who needs it? Who wants it? Evidently, not many.

I don't see why it has to be an either/or.

Why not have Summer Glau join CSI:Terminator as Ann Droid, special investigator from the future who travels back in time to prevent crimes from happening. No continuity or arcs. Every case is wrapped up in an hour.

Or how about a reality show hosted by Tricia Helfer and Summer Glau where guests confess on national television their illicit affairs with robotic devices. At the end of each show, Tricia and Summer become Caprica and Cameron and kill the guests.
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post #739 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 05:06 PM
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Why not have Summer Glau join CSI:Terminator as Ann Droid, special investigator from the future who travels back in time to prevent crimes from happening. No continuity or arcs. Every case is wrapped up in an hour.

I would watch that.

It has to be better than Time Trax.


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post #740 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 08:26 PM
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I disagree about serialized shows having the potential only to lose audiences... When I caught that first episode of "Buffy" several years back in Season 5, I was totally lost as to how the story had gotten where it was, but the story was certainly intriguing. Since it was airing as re-runs somewhere else, however, I started watching them and caught up.

Today you don't just have to hope there's somebody running re-runs somewhere... there's Hulu.com and many other options for people who catch the first episode of a serialized show in mid-season somewhere. If it catches the viewer's attention, all they have to do is go to a network website, or Hulu, or someplace and catch up online, which quite a few people have fast enough computers and internet connections to do now... I do agree there can be "bottle episodes" within serialized shows, however, and most of them have them occasionally... I think a show like "Dollhouse" will have to always have a bit of serial in it to move the story forward, however... Hope it all gets worked out... still looking forward to Friday night to see where things lead us. I have a feeling we'll know by the middle of April whether Fox is keeping it or not.
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post #741 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GrouchoDude View Post

Your loss. These last few episodes leading up to the denouement have been top notch. It's a very good show, soon to be heaped on the serial graveyard with all the others...

But hey, maybe another crime procedural can fill that slot! Or reality show! Why would we want to support smart, adult science fiction? Who needs it? Who wants it? Evidently, not many.

I love the Terminator series and mythology. I just think the show is messing with it. It's trying to be Terminator 2: The TV Show and IMO not doing it well. We know how the show ends already, because we know who is still alive in T3 and how other people died, like Sarah. I watch one procedural and that's Bones - which is more about the characters. I just don't think TSCC is good. I really tried to like it, I stuck with it for a long time. To each their own.
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post #742 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 08:32 PM
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I still watch "TSCC" every week, but to me the best character (and actor) on the show is Summer Glau (funny how she's the one promoting the show on Fox Friday nights, too).
I haven't liked Lena Heady in the Sarah Connor role from day one -- she always looks like she has a case of heartburn, or something... I know casting that role couldn't have been easy, but I still don't think they found the right actress for the part.
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post #743 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

Or how about a reality show hosted by Tricia Helfer and Summer Glau where guests confess on national television their illicit affairs with robotic devices. At the end of each show, Tricia and Summer become Caprica and Cameron and kill the guests.

You need to apply for a job at the networks...I would definitely watch that

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post #744 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

Why not have Summer Glau join CSI:Terminator as Ann Droid, special investigator from the future who travels back in time to prevent crimes from happening. No continuity or arcs. Every case is wrapped up in an hour.

I gotta say - I'd watch that if it were done straight up and not "goofy-bot" style.
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post #745 of 2557 Old 04-01-2009, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by petergaryr View Post

Or how about a reality show hosted by Tricia Helfer and Summer Glau where guests confess on national television their illicit affairs with robotic devices. At the end of each show, Tricia and Summer become Caprica and Cameron and kill the guests.

I'd prefer a reality show where Tricia and Summer do "other things," but alas I don't think that one would ever get made, and even if it did it would probably have to be aired on The Spice Channel

Then again, if Spice confirmed they were gonna have that, I might actually be willing to fork over the $30/month to see it!

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post #746 of 2557 Old 04-02-2009, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by GrouchoDude View Post

I disagree with Rammi that proceduralizing 'Dollhouse' will somehow help it survive. I think we're beyond that now. The first 5 episodes showed us that, and I don't think it's possible to do those kind of one-off episodes any "better" than they were done.

Maybe. But whatever it is they're doing now, that needs to be improved upon IMO, too. I suppose a mixture of self-contained and serialized episodes would be good, but make the serial episodes less complicated and easier to follow.

Somebody tuning into a "Buffy" episode in the middle of that show's run could easily start getting into the show (to use an example someone mentioned here). But as you heard, people that just tuned into the last couple of episodes of Dollhouse that posted here couldn't make any sense out of it.

Actually, the lousy time slot is probably the worst thing it's got going against it.
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post #747 of 2557 Old 04-02-2009, 12:37 AM
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I still wonder how into it, Joss is, Buffy was something he really wanted to do, and I'm sure Firefly was the same, but I'm not sure Dollhouse wasn't about getting a paycheck. It wasn't his idea and I wonder if he's got the passion like he did on the other projects.

He may be totally into it and has it all mapped out, but I still wonder if he's that passionate about it.
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post #748 of 2557 Old 04-02-2009, 01:32 AM
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My guess is we'll really never know unless the show is cancelled after the first season and someone creates some really bad blood with Joss over it -- like maybe doing the kind of finger pointing that you're only suggesting... For instance, say it gets cancelled and then ED does an interview and claims it was all his fault because he was "never really on board," etc. Then we might get some insight into his view on it. Of course we're all pulling for it and hoping that doesn't happen.
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post #749 of 2557 Old 04-02-2009, 02:41 AM
 
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Stop trolling on TSCC, and talk about DOLLHOUSE.
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post #750 of 2557 Old 04-02-2009, 02:56 AM
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Originally Posted by D-I-G-I-T-A-L View Post

Stop trolling on TSCC, and talk about DOLLHOUSE.

I think by this point in the week, just about everyone has run out of anything (good or bad) to say about "Dollhouse" until after 10 p.m. Eastern Friday, which is both why the thread slowed down and why it strayed off topic. You should know that, not that it's an excuse, really, for any of us, but just about every show thread does it after all the pertinent topics for the week dry up.

My guess is that your post and this reply will be "just about it" until Friday night.
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