Enough with all the clutter (graphics) on my HD screen! - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Cross your fingers that we will get more traction on this issue. I'm not just sitting back and complaining, I am trying to do my bit against this crap.

I for one appreciate you taking the lead in this battle. I fear we are fighting against an unstoppable force, but this can't go unchallenged. Back in the (I believe mid '90s), HBO started using a bug on their movies. I was incensed, and mounted a letter-writing campaign with everyone I could round up. A few weeks later, I received a response letter from them with crazy phrases such as "sometimes, innovation can be perceived as an annoyance" -- but they said that they wanted to respect the wishes of their viewers, and were going to cease using the bug immediately. It has never returned.

I can only hope for the same kind of success here, though these days, it seems unlikely.
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post #902 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

but they said that they wanted to respect the wishes of their viewers, and were going to cease using the bug immediately. It has never returned.

The thing about HBO is that it is paid for by subscribers. If subscribers leave because of the bug, income goes down. So, HBO must have perceived that viewers were going to leave, and nipped the bug in the butt. All of the non-pay channels could care less if you stopped watching, since the advertisers are still paying them.

Of course, there is the point at which the loss of too many viewers will result in ad revenue being reduced, as the advertisers won't pay for eyeballs that aren't there.

The question is how many viewers are going to have to leave before the networks, and its advertisers, take notice that snipes were not a good thing.

As was pointed out in a B&C article, advertisers are looking at the snipe as a way to get to the viewers. But they do not seem to understand the negative effect of sniping shows.

The 40 min, or less, hour program and screen clutter is just pissing off viewers.

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post #903 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

The thing about HBO is that it is paid for by subscribers. If subscribers leave because of the bug, income goes down. So, HBO must have perceived that viewers were going to leave, and nipped the bug in the butt. All of the non-pay channels could care less if you stopped watching, since the advertisers are still paying them.

All true. What's amazing though is that they haven't gone back to using the bug, since virtually all of the other pay movie channels are doing it. And of course, don't get me started on their practice (HBO does this -- at least they used to -- and I un-subbed because of it) of squeezing the end credits down to the size of a postage stamp so they can run promos. Hey kids, this is a PAY channel -- I don't give a &$^#&! about what's coming on later, or next week -- I want to see the MOVIE.
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post #904 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

With any luck, B&C will be doing more on this topic of snipes and screen clutter. I sent of a letter to the editor and today got a phone call back regarding my e-mail.

In my e-mail, I mentioned this website and how the members hate screen clutter. The editor that called me back hates snipes as well.

As a side note, I mentioned to him about how short Tuesday's "90210" episode was (38:45). He wants to be kept abreast of these short program lengths as well.

Cross your fingers that we will get more traction on this issue. I'm not just sitting back and complaining, I am trying to do my bit against this crap.

Glad that you've taken the lead on this matter. I've been busier than usual, but I'll try to squeeze a few minutes to drop B&C Editor a message re this annoying issue, too.

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post #905 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post


BTW, shouldn't your 2nd HD be SD?

No its fine. I was only talking about this thread after all.
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post #906 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 05:26 PM
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Originally Posted by TravelFan1 View Post

Glad that you've taken the lead on this matter. I've been busier than usual, but I'll try to squeeze a few minutes to drop B&C Editor a message re this annoying issue, too.

If you haven't sent that email yet, be sure and reference my e-mail to them. If you have sent it and didn't mention it, then I'll send another and join things together, based upon your private message.

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post #907 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 07:29 PM
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FOX showed an HD snipe today during 'Til Death'. A small ad for 'Do Not Disturb', at 9:30 appeared. I've also seen the new bug. Honestly, I like the new FOX HD bug. The only thing I truly hate about it is the animation sequence when it appears. As a bug it really isn't too bad. It's very transparent and a hell of alot better than those tacky local, really splicer-inserted bugs.

I did find it nice that FOX used the regular studio credits at the end of Til Death and Do Not Disturb. Rather than putting that stupid network lower third graphic over the end of the show(sa NBC does to The Office), they actually showed up to and including the production company cards in HD. Plus the lower part of the screen isn't obstructed with the stupid network graphic.
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post #908 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 08:54 PM
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The Jay Leno show has to be the best show when it comes to bugs. The bug came on at the beginning for about two minutes then went away. Since then it hasn't been back. This usually happens every night during the monologue. Also when the bug comes back later during the interviews there is no advertising text.
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post #909 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

Hey mrvideo, take a look at CBS primetime. They're still doing the same snipes after commercial breaks, just with a different effect. The only thing more annoying than last season's 'blue streak' is this year's effect where a silver streak 'distorts' and enlarges a part of the snipe text. It just started last Friday. I hate it and if it keeps up it may be the first time I reduce my watching of a network just because of graphics.

Got it. After the first break I captured, they used the image snipe, i.e., a picture of the start of the show they are promoting. The damn background kept changing.

So I captured some more and sure enough, after the next break is the crap you described. The CBS page has now been updated.

Quote:


Also, update the NBC page. The ad now has an even bigger and uglier font size and style.

Haven't been able to do that one yet. If I remember, I'll try and capture some HD programming tomorrow while I am out.

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post #910 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Haven't been able to do that one yet. If I remember, I'll try and capture some HD programming tomorrow while I am out.

Good news!! NBC primetime tomorrow is almost all HD. Everything except for a half hour of America's Got Talent.

Try to get one of the new FOX HD bug as well.

I'm working on uploading some photos, including showing how the new bug is a 4:3 designed bug. It lines up perfectly with the 4:3 location as well as the HD part in the HD area. I really wish they would lose the animation. Other than that this bug isn't that bad. It is less noticeable than the affiliate bugs, especially ones that are full color. Also I noticed that the net bug is not as bright as the local bug. The local 'FOX 8-1' bug appears to be set on torch mode.

Right now I'd have to say my favorite network and bug is ABC. Although I'd wager that ABC will be ending the crap-free HD sometime this month. On the bright side at least ABC is tasteful with their SD snipes. There's no streaks of light like CBS or huge crap like NBC.

Great write-up on the new CBS snipes. The 'lens effect' thing really pissed me off. Just when you thought CBS couldn't get worse, they did that. I'd honestly take the CW snipes over that. At least the CW isn't that intrusive. (And any network being called worse than the CW and their bright green snipes on dark shows should truly be shamed)
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post #911 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 10:59 PM
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First off, a close up the new FOX HD bug.

FOX HD bug-close up

Next, the bug on an HD show.

FOX HD bug on an HD show

Here's what I noticed about the new bug. Notice that when the 16:9 picture is center cut for SDTV downconversion(as it will be after the DTV transition) the FOX text remains in the 4:3 area(as the bug usually does on SD). The HD text is completely cut off, only visible on the 16:9 channel. The only hint at HDTV is the animated text effect after commercial breaks.

HD feed 4:3 cut for SDTV

A close up of the bug.

And finally, a look at the old, ugly affiliate bug:


FOX 8-1 bug
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post #912 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

Good news!! NBC primetime tomorrow is almost all HD. Everything except for a half hour of America's Got Talent.

I'll be able to grab the 8-9 CT hour. At 9:04 I have to capture the CW promo feed. I just set up the MyHD 130a card to do the capture tomorrow.

Quote:


Try to get one of the new FOX HD bug as well.

Not a problem, since I have captures of T:SCC and tonight's Bones. I thought about capturing stills of the bug. Guess I'll go and do that later.

Quote:


It is less noticeable than the affiliate bugs, especially ones that are full color.

Most definately. Our local Fox affilaite bug sucks. The affiliates have full control over how it looks. They only have to fit it in a certain size. Fox then places it in the splicer.

Quote:


Great write-up on the new CBS snipes. The 'lens effect' thing really pissed me off. Just when you thought CBS couldn't get worse, they did that. I'd honestly take the CW snipes over that. At least the CW isn't that intrusive. (And any network being called worse than the CW and their bright green snipes on dark shows should truly be shamed)

Ya, I didn't think anyone could be worse than The CW. The other networks are doing their best, including the CW parent. CBS has gone straight to Hell.

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post #913 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

First off, a close up the new FOX HD bug.

A silly question... you can't capture onto computer OTA programming?

You must have one of those TiVo things. I like my computer setup for capturing programming. I can edit, save, burn, capture stills. While it doesn't have the fancy TiVo features, it does what I really want.

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post #914 of 3300 Old 09-10-2008, 11:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

A silly question... you can't capture onto computer OTA programming?

You must have one of those TiVo things. I like my computer setup for capturing programming. I can edit, save, burn, capture stills. While it doesn't have the fancy TiVo features, it does what I really want.

I actually did that with my SA 8300HD and a camera. I've really improved in my photographing the TV lately, with all the crap the network puts out. Makes me wish I had a PC tuner card to capture all this. Definitely something I'll include in my next computer. Anybody that can capture true resolution feeds(as on your site) needs to capture and upload. We need more blogs, forum posts, websites, etc showing that viewers hate this s**t.
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post #915 of 3300 Old 09-11-2008, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

I'll be able to grab the 8-9 CT hour. At 9:04 I have to capture the CW promo feed. I just set up the MyHD 130a card to do the capture tomorrow.

Crap! I screwed up and set it for Friday. I'll have to capture on Saturday, since there isn't any HD on Friday.

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post #916 of 3300 Old 09-11-2008, 09:07 PM
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Chuck is HD on Saturday. And from my viewing experience it is cluttered with screen crap like all NBC programming except latenight and news.
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post #917 of 3300 Old 09-12-2008, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

Chuck is HD on Saturday. And from my viewing experience it is cluttered with screen crap like all NBC programming except latenight and news.

Yep, I'll be doing NBC captures tomorrow night.

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post #918 of 3300 Old 09-12-2008, 04:45 PM
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I would like to nuke that NBC promo bug - back bigger and badder (and annoying) as ever.
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post #919 of 3300 Old 09-14-2008, 07:32 PM
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TBS is showing a movie, and in the lower left corner is a permanent message that says:

Quote:


more movie ...
less commercials

AAARRGGGHHH. What good is "less commercials" if you can't stand to watch the movie with junk all over the screen?
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post #920 of 3300 Old 09-14-2008, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Knicks_Fan View Post

I would like to nuke that NBC promo bug - back bigger and badder (and annoying) as ever.

I've updated my NBC snipes web page. NBC provided me with prime fodder with regards to my comments about that crap.

You do understand that is is larger so that the SD viewers can read it on their crappy old NTSC TVs.

This transition to digital is going to be a real pan-in-the-ass.

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post #921 of 3300 Old 09-14-2008, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Cosmos2 View Post

TBS is showing a movie, and in the lower left corner is a permanent message that says:



AAARRGGGHHH. What good is "less commercials" if you can't stand to watch the movie with junk all over the screen?

I'd take DOUBLE COMMERCIALS just to NOT have to see bugs and crap during the movie!

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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

I've updated my NBC snipes web page. NBC provided me with prime fodder with regards to my comments about that crap.

You do understand that is is larger so that the SD viewers can read it on their crappy old NTSC TVs.

This transition to digital is going to be a real pan-in-the-ass.

The funny thing is you CANNOT read the NBC bug text on an NTSC TV when it is shown in letterbox. On my 19 inch CRT, the letterboxing makes the bug/text so small, it's unreadable. Defeating the purpose of the text. Plus it makes the show look even more ridiculous when a LETTERBOX presentation on a 4:3 TV has a bug that is 4:3 safe. Stupidity is all around at NBC!!!

Maybe it will get better after the transition. Once NBC starts using 4:3 AR on the SD channel the text can be reduced, since the bug will be larger that it currently is in letterbox?

EDIT: Just read your updated NBC page. I love the way you worked NBC's screen crap into the rant. The families watching NBC are the biggest losers!!
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post #922 of 3300 Old 09-14-2008, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

I'd take DOUBLE COMMERCIALS just to NOT have to see bugs and crap during the movie!

You sure about that? It is a 20 minute commercial hour as it is now. Double the commercials and it could go up to 40 minutes an hour.

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The funny thing is you CANNOT read the NBC bug text on an NTSC TV when it is shown in letterbox. On my 19 inch CRT, the letterboxing makes the bug/text so small, it's unreadable. Defeating the purpose of the text. Plus it makes the show look even more ridiculous when a LETTERBOX presentation on a 4:3 TV has a bug that is 4:3 safe. Stupidity is all around at NBC!!!

The design is for those cable and pizza-pan companies that are center cutting the HD program for the SD customers. That is why all of the bugs have moved to 4:# safe area. Sigh!

Quote:


Maybe it will get better after the transition. Once NBC starts using 4:3 AR on the SD channel the text can be reduced, since the bug will be larger that it currently is in letterbox?

I'm confused by this statement. SD transmission by the OTA networks is gone in mid February. Everything will be HD (true HD 16:9 and upconverted SD 4:3). There won't be an SD channel. That is why cable-cos and pizza-pan-cos are using HD as the source, but center cutting it (a majority of the time).

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Just read your updated NBC page. I love the way you worked NBC's screen crap into the rant. The families watching NBC are the biggest losers!!

As I was looking at the images, and noticed what the text was and it was the only thing that I could do with it. It was just luck that I captured when I did, as the text would have been different on another day.

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post #923 of 3300 Old 09-14-2008, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

The design is for those cable and pizza-pan companies that are center cutting the HD program for the SD customers. That is why all of the bugs have moved to 4:# safe area. Sigh!

It looks like NBC is working with one feed internally, hence the 4:3 AND letterboxed bug. For whatever reason, it seems NBC decided to keep airing the remainder of their repeats in letterbox over the summer(even though the bug moved in May). Because of that, the SD channel has a bug in the middle of the screen as well. If you have an SD source, look at it next time a program is HD on NBC. It is the exact same feed, just letterboxed. And if you're looking at it on a smaller screen, the text is hard to read because of the size. It looks like new programming will have this problem fixed. SNL repeats over the summer(with the exception of the George Carlin episode) were shown letterbox. Last night's new episode was shown 4:3 on SD with the bug in a normal 4:3 location rather than letterboxed with a floating bug.

Quote:


I'm confused by this statement. SD transmission by the OTA networks is gone in mid February. Everything will be HD (true HD 16:9 and upconverted SD 4:3). There won't be an SD channel. That is why cable-cos and pizza-pan-cos are using HD as the source, but center cutting it (a majority of the time).

That's what I mean. When the cable/sat downconvert we will have a 4:3 AR on the SD digital channel. Once that starts happening, maybe the networks will see the result and reduce the size. Even on shows shown in 4:3 on NBC like Deal Or No Deal, those graphics are way too big. There's no need for it to be that big. I was watching the DoND season premiere on a 19'' CRT and the snipes they introduced that day(8/25) were large looking on my small TV. NBC needs to be a contestant on their Biggest Loser show. Not only are they losers, but they could stand to learn a few tips about dieting to apply to their snipes.
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post #924 of 3300 Old 09-14-2008, 09:01 PM
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http://vidiot.com/images/CBS-snipe-080910-8.png

I liked your write up on CBS as well. I cannot stand that 'lens effect' with the snipe text. I selected this shot for a reason. It shows how pathetic CBS is since it appears they hired amateurs to make the graphics. Why else would they use a light colored gradient on background objects when the text over it is white? You can't even read part of the text. CBS definitely wins as the worst so far this season. NBC is a close number two with their ugly snipes. That looks like something created with Word Art in Power Point. Very generic and cheap.
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post #925 of 3300 Old 09-14-2008, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

If you have an SD source, look at it next time a program is HD on NBC. It is the exact same feed, just letterboxed.

I'll try and remember to look at the analog channel in the near future.

Quote:


Once that starts happening, maybe the networks will see the result and reduce the size.

They can see the result now. Take any CECB, tune in the HD channel and have the CECB center cut it.

They must be looking at something to determine what they want for the size.

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post #926 of 3300 Old 09-14-2008, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

I liked your write up on CBS as well. I cannot stand that 'lens effect' with the snipe text.

Thanks, I appreciate it. Now if only CBS would get their heads out of their asses and really look at that crap they placed on the screen, they just might get rid of it.

The person that created that is probably extremely proud of the work. If it were meant to be part of and actual program, then yes, it looks accurate. But as a damn snipe, it is nothing but annoying.

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post #927 of 3300 Old 09-15-2008, 12:14 AM
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I'll try and remember to look at the analog channel in the near future.



They can see the result now. Take any CECB, tune in the HD channel and have the CECB center cut it.

They must be looking at something to determine what they want for the size.

Then they must be blind, or severely visually impaired. Looking at a snipe on Deal or No Deal in 4:3 on a 19 CRT it was too big even for that screen. No need for that. The same goes for CBS. That lens effect makes the already big enough and visible enough snipe over intrusive. There is no need for that crap either. Both are dangerously close to CW territory. The only good network left is ABC. See my new thread. And I get the feeling I will be eating all my words of praise at ABC in a few weeks once the new season begins. ABC will probably turn as bad as the other networks overnight. Right now, ABC is the best broadcast network on TV. They should be used as an example of how to broadcast in HD. 100% perfect.

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100% perfect.

I have a bad feeling I will have to eat my words in a few weeks.
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post #928 of 3300 Old 09-15-2008, 12:48 AM
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First off, a close up the new FOX HD bug.

FOX HD bug-close up

Next, the bug on an HD show.

FOX HD bug on an HD show

Here's what I noticed about the new bug. Notice that when the 16:9 picture is center cut for SDTV downconversion(as it will be after the DTV transition) the FOX text remains in the 4:3 area(as the bug usually does on SD). The HD text is completely cut off, only visible on the 16:9 channel. The only hint at HDTV is the animated text effect after commercial breaks.

HD feed 4:3 cut for SDTV

A close up of the bug.

And finally, a look at the old, ugly affiliate bug:


FOX 8-1 bug

Also of note, the Fox bug--at least on the HD feed--is intermittent, appearing only after commercial breaks. Who would've thought Fox could actually get something right that all the other networks have screwed up completely? I hope it stays this way.
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post #929 of 3300 Old 09-15-2008, 12:49 AM
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See my new thread.

What new thread?

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I have a bad feeling I will have to eat my words in a few weeks.

Unfortunately, I too believe that they will join the rest of the stupid sheep and walk right of the cliff.

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post #930 of 3300 Old 09-15-2008, 12:51 AM
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Also of note, the Fox bug--at least on the HD feed--is intermittent, appearing only after commercial breaks. Who would've thought Fox could actually get something right that all the other networks have screwed up completely? I hope it stays this way.

That is because the Fox net bug has to leave the screen so that the affiliate bug can be turned on. Having both on the same time would be stupid.

Oh wait.... there is a lot of that going around.

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