Enough with all the clutter (graphics) on my HD screen! - Page 37 - AVS Forum
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post #1081 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by TravelFan1 View Post

Yesterday, we were watching the replays of Top Chef New York on Bravo. Bravo was SO worried with putting all their clutter that there was a notice about some other show(forgot what was) over the name of the guest judge for the episode! PATHETIC!

The wife and I were also watching Top Chef on Bravo and complaining about the ridiculous amount of screen clutter during it. Pathetic!
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post #1082 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Knicks_Fan View Post

TNT had another "More Movie... Less Commercial" self-congratulatory promo bug on again over the weekend during one of the "Lord of The Rings" movies. It should have read:

MORE LOGO
LESS VIEWABLE SCREEN SPACE

Also seen: A snipe showing someone dropping down a rope from top to bottom plugging a TNT show.
TNT is the absolute worst- the bugs are getting larger and larger (note to MrVideo: I don't have a setup to grab screen shots directly).

AGREED! I was trying to watch the Lord of the Rings movies on TNT over the weekend and that drop down snipe for their new show was the most obnoxious thing I've ever seen. They would have a commercial promoting it during the breaks, then like 30 seconds in, the person would drop down, then the bottom 1/4 of the screen would get covered by a big graphic for the show. I feel like that snipe would run at least twice between commercial breaks. Plus, that "more movie, less commercial" logo...it's not even possible to watch a show on that channel without all kinds of crap filling up the screen.

Edit: I followed richiephx's lead and also sent them an email. Most likely it won't do anything, but if they get enough emails from frustrated viewers, maybe they'll start to listen.
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post #1083 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 07:15 PM
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OK, I get an e-mail about a very brief, and cryptic, posting from TVOD. So, I come here to check out what it was about and bam, it is gone.

What gives?

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post #1084 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by videojanitor View Post

If an affiliate preempts network programming for instance, the splicer bug will pop on and off over the local show at whatever times the network segments are airing, as it is still receiving the triggers and has no idea that the network feed is not on the air.

Or, if an affiliate is late returning to net after a local break. Our local affiliate has gotten a lot better at the local breaks. I haven't seen a screwup in ages. But the bug would start to appear and when they did return to net, the bug would vanish and restart the fade-in. Weird.

Maybe "Splicer Series II" will have eliminated that problem.

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post #1085 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

Isn't this whole thread about networks pissing on their viewing population?

Exactly. Moving the bug to the 4:3 area is indeed pissing on their viewers. They are making sure that the center-cut 4:3 viewer still is pissed on by having to still see that damn bug and the HD viewer is pissed on by having it moved more toward the center of the viewing area.

The practice stinks.

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post #1086 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

OK, I get an e-mail about a very brief, and cryptic, posting from TVOD. So, I come here to check out what it was about and bam, it is gone.

What gives?

He probably decided to delete it before you came here to see it.
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post #1087 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by mx6bfast View Post

I'm beginning to think that FOX now has the worst bugs. They are all animated. But I'd have to say they barely beat out CBS.

Fox bugs are not animated. OK that FoxHD thing is that comes in after a break, but the station bug is not anaimated. You are talking about the snipes, those lower third pieces of crap that come on the screen hyping this or that show.

The Fox snipes are not worse than CBS. CBS does their pieces of crap after every break and every show. As far as I can quickly tell, tonight's T:tSCC did not have any snipes. If Fox does use them, it is not done after every break.

While they suck (they all suck), the CBS crap is horrible.

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post #1088 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

He probably decided to delete it before you came here to see it.

Forgetting in the process that e-mail went out to many of the thread members

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post #1089 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

As bad as some Fox station's bugs are, that one isn't real. The only place that bug exists is in TV shows downloaded from some less-than-legitimate sources.

Are you saying that the source is either from the network feed or from a feed to Canada? No matter the source, you'd think that they would use a real logo as the fake logo is still a dead give-away. Is that logo not the logo for that station, or does that station even exist?

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post #1090 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Global and CTV, the 2 main commercial Canadian networks, are just as bad as the US networks. Just because the downloaded shows have a particular logo on them doesn't mean that's where they came from. It's trivial to insert a watermark on video.

In the case of T:tSCC, or any Warner Bros. Studios product, the feed of said show to Canada is encrypted, so the souce of said video is NOT an HD clean feed to Canada. In order for there to be no bug, it would have to come from an inside source, either stateside or on the Canadian receiving side. It doesn't come from the clean HD sat feed.

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post #1091 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Are you saying that the source is either from the network feed or from a feed to Canada? No matter the source, you'd think that they would use a real logo as the fake logo is still a dead give-away. Is that logo not the logo for that station, or does that station even exist?

It is a real station:

http://www.fox41.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WDRB

Global is also a real Canadian network. The source of that episode of Prison Break was a BT, so I assume it was recorded from TV, making the bug in that show the actual bug and means Global doesn't show snipes on screen.
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post #1092 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

It is a real station:

Global is also a real Canadian network. The source of that episode of Prison Break was a BT, so I assume it was recorded from TV, making the bug in that show the actual bug and means Global doesn't show snipes on screen.

I do know that Global, along with CTV (I used to watch CTV when it was analog C-Band), are real networks, Canadian even.

Just because it was a BT doesn't mean that the source couldn't have been from a satellite feed.

What is weird about that image is that it was an enlargement of the 720p frame. Not sure why it would have been enlarged. BTs don't go any higher than 720p. Encoding 1080i is a royal pain and makes the files a lot larger than wanted. 1080i programming is downconverted to 720p.

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post #1093 of 3302 Old 12-01-2008, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Are you saying that the source is either from the network feed or from a feed to Canada? No matter the source, you'd think that they would use a real logo as the fake logo is still a dead give-away. Is that logo not the logo for that station, or does that station even exist?

Feed to Canada. You're not the only one who has a big dish and knowledge of when shows feed . WDRB exists, but that isn't their bug, and the one in that screenshot doesn't even come close to meeting Fox's guidelines. I know there are some that don't meet spec, but none that are that ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

In the case of T:tSCC, or any Warner Bros. Studios product, the feed of said show to Canada is encrypted, so the souce of said video is NOT an HD clean feed to Canada. In order for there to be no bug, it would have to come from an inside source, either stateside or on the Canadian receiving side. It doesn't come from the clean HD sat feed.

Pretty sure he was talking about Prison Break, and you know better than I do that as a 20th Century Fox production, it doesn't suffer from that pesky encryption. Probably only a matter of time before they figure out that those feeds are once again being used to supply the Internet with high-quality copies of their shows.

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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

It is a real station:

http://www.fox41.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WDRB

Global is also a real Canadian network. The source of that episode of Prison Break was a BT, so I assume it was recorded from TV, making the bug in that show the actual bug and means Global doesn't show snipes on screen.

That those recordings came from a broadcast network is a perfectly reasonable assumption to make based on the information you have available to you, which is probably the reason those bugs are spoofed in the first place. Unfortunately, it simply isn't true. When comparing a real broadcast from CTV, Global, or E! HD to what is released on the Internet with bugs purporting to be from those networks, there are plenty of inconsistencies indicating that they really don't come from those networks. The most obvious is that the bugs don't match in design, location, or size, or lack the colored (coloured?) effects when they come on the screen after a break.
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post #1094 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

I do know that Global, along with CTV (I used to watch CTV when it was analog C-Band), are real networks, Canadian even.

Just because it was a BT doesn't mean that the source couldn't have been from a satellite feed.

What is weird about that image is that it was an enlargement of the 720p frame. Not sure why it would have been enlarged. BTs don't go any higher than 720p. Encoding 1080i is a royal pain and makes the files a lot larger than wanted. 1080i programming is downconverted to 720p.

Unfortunately I cannot take a screencap from Media Player. But the properties tell me it is 624x352. Not HD, but it definitely didn't look bad. If you've seen the actual network, you may know what was on screen. There was a TV rating bug in the upper left 4:3 safe area and a bug in the lower right 4:3 safe area that said "Global HD". It did look like it was from TV.
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post #1095 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

Feed to Canada. You're not the only one who has a big dish and knowledge of when shows feed .

Never said that I was. I know there are plenty of BUDheads still out here. And I know that there are those that do go after the clean feeds and make BTs out of them.

Here is the pretty stupid part about placing a fake bug on the BT... it doesn't gain you anything in regards to quality. The BTers prefer to not include the closing credits, no matter if they are clean or network formatted, all to save space. The only advantage is that said BTer gets to say that they got it ready hours before anyone that could have done the exact same thing from the capture of a local affiliate. If they left the bug off and included the real credits, then the BT would be prized by some. Applying a fake bug doesn't fool 20th Century Fox and now that Fox is using that animated HD bug after commercial breaks, it is even more obvious as to the source.

Quote:
Pretty sure he was talking about Prison Break, and you know better than I do that as a 20th Century Fox production, it doesn't suffer from that pesky encryption. Probably only a matter of time before they figure out that those feeds are once again being used to supply the Internet with high-quality copies of their shows.

Actually, when it comes to 20th Century Fox HD feeds to Canada, I know very little. I've not researched it. Why? Because I do not have the $5k IRD and 4.5m dish needed to get the Fox 8PSK muxes (bet that makes Fox happy to read that after all these years ). True, one could use a smaller dish. A perfectly tuned 12' would be extremely border line. 15' would be better. BUDheads can live with correctable errors. The current Fox mux configuration is pretty good encryption as far as may capabilities and budget are concerned. But all it takes is one BTer with the right equipment to capture the feeds. I've read that Fox isn't encrypted. Last I read, Fox had to turn off encryption as it caused the CC data to be corrupted. I would have expected a firmware fix by now. Maybe it requires the new IRDs to fix that problem. The BT BUDheads aren't going to get clean feeds from Fox for long.

I'd love to be able to capture Fox Canadian and network feeds. Why? The damn local bug is extremely annoying. A bugless feed would be perfect and I suspect that the Canadian feeds are 1080i (though I have no proof one way or the other), which is what I would prefer.

Another reason why I don't upgrade my stuff to go after Fox feeds.... Blu-ray. These days, stuff is being released in 1080p. No bugs, no snipes and clean credits and sometimes, extended episodes. Waiting a relatively short period of time will result in a superior product. I've actually stopped capturing CW feeds of Smallville and Supernatural. Both are now available in 1080p and DD5.1, where the CW only does Smallville in DD2.0. No damn annoying CW bug in the middle of the screen and none of those horrible snipes. A network has actually driven me away from watching their programming. CBS is next on my radar.

Quote:
The most obvious is that the bugs don't match in design, location, or size, or lack the colored (coloured?) effects when they come on the screen after a break.

Which is why 20th Century Fox isn't fooled by such artistry. If they are trying to fool the studio, you'd think they'd try harder to get it right. Even if they did use a real logo, doing frame grabs of the "work" would still show flaws in the process. So why bother? Who are they fooling.

BTW, there's colored effects? I've never noticed that with the local bug when it comes on the screen. Guess I need to do some image stills to see that.

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post #1096 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

Unfortunately I cannot take a screencap from Media Player. But the properties tell me it is 624x352. Not HD, but it definitely didn't look bad.

As I understand it, since I don't bit torrent (can one do BT with Solaris 10?), 624x352 is a common size. To get 16:9, you need an HD source or a letterboxed SD source. Someone sent me a BT encoding guide and it was interesting to read.

The weird thing is, they don't appear to like doing 640x360. They seem to stick to the divide by 8 rule (for MPEG-2), which is out the window for MPEG-4. So, they end up with weird video sizes in their guide.

BTW, you can do a still from VideoLanClient. I do not like Media Slayer.

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post #1097 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by drocpsu View Post

AGREED! I was trying to watch the Lord of the Rings movies on TNT over the weekend and that drop down snipe for their new show was the most obnoxious thing I've ever seen. They would have a commercial promoting it during the breaks, then like 30 seconds in, the person would drop down, then the bottom 1/4 of the screen would get covered by a big graphic for the show. I feel like that snipe would run at least twice between commercial breaks. Plus, that "more movie, less commercial" logo...it's not even possible to watch a show on that channel without all kinds of crap filling up the screen.

Edit: I followed richiephx's lead and also sent them an email. Most likely it won't do anything, but if they get enough emails from frustrated viewers, maybe they'll start to listen.


TNT is horrible. I simply vow not to watch the shows advertised by those snipes.

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post #1098 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Fox bugs are not animated. OK that FoxHD thing is that comes in after a break, but the station bug is not anaimated. You are talking about the snipes, those lower third pieces of crap that come on the screen hyping this or that show.

The Fox snipes are not worse than CBS. CBS does their pieces of crap after every break and every show. As far as I can quickly tell, tonight's T:tSCC did not have any snipes. If Fox does use them, it is not done after every break.

While they suck (they all suck), the CBS crap is horrible.

Whoops, meant to say snipes.

I don't know, FOX is up there with CBS. Yeah FOX doesn't do them as much as CBS, but to have 24's come flying from halfway up the side of the screen and Peter or Homer flip up on the screen is pretty nerve racking.

HEY, you viewing dumbasses!

NOW!
NEW!
ALL NEW!

(insert name of show here)
NEXT!
8/9 PM ET
TUESDAY!
NEXT WEEK!
IN 2 WEEKS!


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post #1099 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 10:45 AM
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Another pet peeve: animated sensationalist graphics that rotate back and forth, especially CNN and Fox News HD, on the lower right hand side of the screen (sometimes CNN will run a second one like during Campbell Brown Live - NO BIAS NO BULL).
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post #1100 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Here is the pretty stupid part about placing a fake bug on the BT... it doesn't gain you anything in regards to quality. The BTers prefer to not include the closing credits, no matter if they are clean or network formatted, all to save space. The only advantage is that said BTer gets to say that they got it ready hours before anyone that could have done the exact same thing from the capture of a local affiliate. If they left the bug off and included the real credits, then the BT would be prized by some. Applying a fake bug doesn't fool 20th Century Fox and now that Fox is using that animated HD bug after commercial breaks, it is even more obvious as to the source.

It fools the casual watcher, and apparently the studios haven't figured it out yet if the feeds are still there in the clear.

Quote:


Actually, when it comes to 20th Century Fox HD feeds to Canada, I know very little. I've not researched it. Why? Because I do not have the $5k IRD and 4.5m dish needed to get the Fox 8PSK muxes (bet that makes Fox happy to read that after all these years ). True, one could use a smaller dish. A perfectly tuned 12' would be extremely border line. 15' would be better. BUDheads can live with correctable errors. The current Fox mux configuration is pretty good encryption as far as may capabilities and budget are concerned. But all it takes is one BTer with the right equipment to capture the feeds. I've read that Fox isn't encrypted. Last I read, Fox had to turn off encryption as it caused the CC data to be corrupted. I would have expected a firmware fix by now. Maybe it requires the new IRDs to fix that problem. The BT BUDheads aren't going to get clean feeds from Fox for long.

Does 20th use the same transponders as the Fox network? I would have guessed that they would use something more accessible since they have to deliver programming to a lot more places that they can't enforce design standards on like the Fox network does.

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I'd love to be able to capture Fox Canadian and network feeds. Why? The damn local bug is extremely annoying. A bugless feed would be perfect and I suspect that the Canadian feeds are 1080i (though I have no proof one way or the other), which is what I would prefer.

I believe all the Canadian feeds match the standard of the company producing them, i.e. 720p for 20th Century Fox and ABC, and 1080i for CBS, NBC Universal, and WB. Not particularly difficult to crossconvert.

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Which is why 20th Century Fox isn't fooled by such artistry. If they are trying to fool the studio, you'd think they'd try harder to get it right. Even if they did use a real logo, doing frame grabs of the "work" would still show flaws in the process. So why bother? Who are they fooling.

BTW, there's colored effects? I've never noticed that with the local bug when it comes on the screen. Guess I need to do some image stills to see that.

Takes a lot of work to get things right, especially when the networks frequently change things. For colo(u)red effects, I am referring to CTV and Global. On broadcast, the CTV logo comes in as red, blue, and green before going to the normal transparency. It's not unlike how the NBC peacock comes in. The Global logo comes in opaque white with a red > before fading to its normal transparency.
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post #1101 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by mx6bfast View Post

Whoops, meant to say snipes.

I don't know, FOX is up there with CBS. Yeah FOX doesn't do them as much as CBS, but to have 24's come flying from halfway up the side of the screen and Peter or Homer flip up on the screen is pretty nerve racking.

I'm behind watching Terminator and Fringe, so I haven't seen what they've been up to lately.

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post #1102 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

It fools the casual watcher, and apparently the studios haven't figured it out yet if the feeds are still there in the clear.

The casual watcher could care less what the source was. If they didn't want an illegal copy, they would go and BT it.

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Does 20th use the same transponders as the Fox network? I would have guessed that they would use something more accessible since they have to deliver programming to a lot more places that they can't enforce design standards on like the Fox network does.

As I understand it, when feeding digital stuff out, they drop down to QPSK, still using the same "ATSC" formatting. I do not know if they reduce the number of streams, or if they stay 8PSK and reduce the FEC, to make it easier to receive. I'd have to go digging to find out. If they are going QPSK, I still wouldn't be able to receive the feeds, because an expensive Trellis commercial receiver is needed to get it. I understand that sometimes a receiver can be found on ebay. Then I'd have to get equipment to get the ASI output into the computer. Frankly, as much as I enjoy the BUD hobby, it just isn't worth it.

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I believe all the Canadian feeds match the standard of the company producing them, i.e. 720p for 20th Century Fox and ABC, and 1080i for CBS, NBC Universal, and WB. Not particularly difficult to crossconvert.

I've not seen any ABC Studios Canadian feeds, though I think they are done encrypted (I'd have to check for sure). That said, their stateside syndicated programming is all 1080i. The exception will be the Regis show, as it is produced live in the WABC studio, which is 720p. So, I've not seen 720p HD sat feeds, yet.

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Takes a lot of work to get things right, especially when the networks frequently change things. For colo(u)red effects, I am referring to CTV and Global. On broadcast, the CTV logo comes in as red, blue, and green before going to the normal transparency. It's not unlike how the NBC peacock comes in. The Global logo comes in opaque white with a red > before fading to its normal transparency.

Ya, I think I've seen that way back when CTV was analog. Sorry that I didn't get that you were talking about the Canadian bugs.

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post #1103 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 05:30 PM
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I'm behind watching Terminator and Fringe, so I haven't seen what they've been up to lately.

House had one for Fringe at the 24 minute mark. It showed up on the screen and the disappeared.

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post #1104 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 05:37 PM
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House had one for Fringe at the 24 minute mark. It showed up on the screen and the disappeared.

During tonight's broadcast? If so, I have a capture running, though I don't actually need the Fox version.

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post #1105 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 05:42 PM
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House had one for Fringe at the 24 minute mark. It showed up on the screen and the disappeared.

"secret Millionaire" at 8:37.
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post #1106 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 05:43 PM
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During tonight's broadcast? If so, I have a capture running, though I don't actually need the Fox version.

Yes, and Secret Millionaire at 38 minutes

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post #1107 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 05:48 PM
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I asked my local engineer who to complain to and he said the only address he knows of is askfox@fox.com

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post #1108 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 07:43 PM
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House had one for Fringe at the 24 minute mark. It showed up on the screen and the disappeared.

The Fringe snipe, while annoying, was very tame.

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post #1109 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 07:46 PM
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"secret Millionaire" at 8:37.

OK, now this snipe just plain reeked. While it doesn't have the CBS "glow" that affects the whole screen, that sucker was way too large and annoyingly distracting.

Un-frakin'-believable

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post #1110 of 3302 Old 12-02-2008, 07:48 PM
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I asked my local engineer who to complain to and he said the only address he knows of is askfox@fox.com

It is the only one I know of well and have used it many years ago.

After the e-mail I send this time, I doubt that he is going to actually respond.

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