Enough with all the clutter (graphics) on my HD screen! - Page 40 - AVS Forum
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post #1171 of 3306 Old 12-16-2008, 09:46 PM
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It's so strange. This time last year CBS was still the BEST network HDTV channel and NBC was continuing to slide deeper into the WORST. And now one year later, CBS has the ugliest, worst snipe of any broadcast network(other than FOX's using pictures) and NBC Has the BEST snipes of the networks.

I'm trying to remember past NBC snipes. Thinking back, out of about five or six years of snipes, this has to be the best NBC has done ever. NBC has been far more offensive in the past with animated crap.
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post #1172 of 3306 Old 12-16-2008, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

It's pretty tame stuff in comparison to everyone else doing it. They have a simple panel slide across the bottom with a show announcement after an ad break for about three seconds and then it's gone. It's not even a lower third, it's more like a lower eighth. They don't even have a bug promo now.

Oh ya, I did go capture the "new" snipes for the web site. Do they still look like the ones I captured?

To me, they are still annoying. But, as everyone is this thread knows by now, I hate all snipes nd bugs. I want to view the program, not crap begging me to watch something else, and even more insane, telling me what show I am watching, as if I were too stupid to know what show I was watching.

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post #1173 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 06:05 AM
 
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I STILL want to know what the networks have GAINED from using bugs for the past 10 years (ABC being the last to join in 1998, Fox being the first with 2-minute bugs in 1993 expanding to full-time a few years later.)
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post #1174 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by 8traxrule View Post

I STILL want to know what the networks have GAINED from using bugs for the past 10 years...

They haven't "gained" anything.
But as soon as one net started using bugs the other nets had to follow or be considered some how "less than"or "second rate". If one net had the stones to stop using bugs... I would bet the others would stop too.
In a business that's renowned for it's creativity and innovations in the past, it seems nobody wants to be different from their competitors any longer

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post #1175 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by replayrob View Post

They haven't "gained" anything.
But as soon as one net started using bugs the other nets had to follow or be considered some how "less than"or "second rate". If one net had the stones to stop using bugs... I would bet the others would stop too.
In a business that's renowned for it's creativity and innovations in the past, it seems nobody wants to be different from their competitors any longer

I used to think some network would step up and realize they'd have a good marketing campaign to advertise their shows as "logo and ad free" but I've given up on that. The problem is getting significantly worse, with each network trying to out-do each other, it seems.
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post #1176 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

Yeah but, for how long? Separate SDTV feeds are going away in about two months. I doubt ABC will go completely snipe-free(as ABC SD still has snipes) so that crap will eventually be migrating.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post15202943
Who's to say that ABC will discontinue their stance on them on the HD feed?

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Plus, you might want to capture 60 Minutes in HD next Sunday. CBS has a second variation of the snipe. During 60 minutes we only get the text and the background. The "lens effect" thing is not done. I guess CBS has a shred of dignity left to NOT destroy an old, respected news show like 60 Minutes.

I noticed on CSI that the snipe color isn't electric blue anymore, its more of a light brown color. Is that the same thing you are talking about?

btw did you ever get a shot of the affiliates local bug with the snow falling or whatever is was?

HEY, you viewing dumbasses!

NOW!
NEW!
ALL NEW!

(insert name of show here)
NEXT!
8/9 PM ET
TUESDAY!
NEXT WEEK!
IN 2 WEEKS!



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post #1177 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

Plus, you might want to capture 60 Minutes in HD next Sunday. CBS has a second variation of the snipe. During 60 minutes we only get the text and the background. The "lens effect" thing is not done. I guess CBS has a shred of dignity left to NOT destroy an old, respected news show like 60 Minutes.

If I remember, I'll take a look.

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post #1178 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mx6bfast View Post

[url] Who's to say that ABC will discontinue their stance on them on the HD feed?

It all depends on how badly the president of ABC wants to keep them off the screen.

But, deep down inside I believe that the underlings will convince him that they are "required." Damn, I hope not.

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post #1179 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 09:55 AM
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About a year ago, I canceled STARZ because of their bright orange pulsating bug that pops in for two minutes every 12 minutes. I was watching at a friend's house and it's still there but now during the 2 minutes it's on, it pops in and out instead of being stationary. It's even more annoying and distracting now.

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post #1180 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 05:15 PM
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Oh my god!!! I'm in disbelief about FOX. As I was going through the channels, I noticed that FOX has no bug!! Since today was that DTV test, local cable started taking SD channels from HD feeds, so the bug on FOX HD is cut off on SDTV. Only the "FOX" part of the FOX HD bug is visible on screen at the beginning of the show. The affiliate bug is in the cut off part!!

A CHRISTMAS MIRACLE!!!
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post #1181 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 05:22 PM
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Our Fox affiliate KSWB does this. There is no bug when the fox splicer is activated. I guess this a TWC thing or maybe they are doing it OTA.
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post #1182 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

A CHRISTMAS MIRACLE!!!

That is until SD viewers discover that the side action is being clipped. Fox has basically directed the producers to use the whole 16:9 area. That is because Fox is now supposed to be letterboxing the 16:9 shows on their SD feed.

The cable viewer needs to tune in the HD channel so that they'll see it letterboxed on their SD TV. At that point they'll get the local bug back and they'll get to see ALL of the program, as intended.

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post #1183 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

That is until SD viewers discover that the side action is being clipped. Fox has basically directed the producers to use the whole 16:9 area. That is because Fox is now supposed to be letterboxing the 16:9 shows on their SD feed.

The cable viewer needs to tune in the HD channel so that they'll see it letterboxed on their SD TV. At that point they'll get the local bug back and they'll get to see ALL of the program, as intended.

I'll have to check "Bones" at 9 since I don't watch reality crap. But other shows like Prison Break and House appear to be 4:3 safe, so I'm not expecting there to be a drastic difference. I really hope this is a sign of what will be coming once the transition happens. The 4:3 cut channel looks better than the letterbox channel. Hopefully local NBC ends up the same. They're still showing network analog feed on cable since WKYC is delivered by direct fiber feed to TWC. ABC is the same. CBS is also being shown as a center cut of the HD channel on TWC. I guess we might be lucky like satellite and have a head end that doesn't support AFD.
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post #1184 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Oh ya, I did go capture the "new" snipes for the web site. Do they still look like the ones I captured?

To me, they are still annoying. But, as everyone is this thread knows by now, I hate all snipes nd bugs. I want to view the program, not crap begging me to watch something else, and even more insane, telling me what show I am watching, as if I were too stupid to know what show I was watching.

I still hate snipes as well but NBC have come a long way all things considered. The lower third design is similar to the black bar versions you capped but the bars are now slightly transparent colors and no longer a black slab. Not as obnoxious now.

I don't think they occur during the show either. Just returning from commercial.


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post #1185 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 06:14 PM
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The people at "FO" are going to have to move their bug a little to the left if they want their NTSC viewers to know the real name of their network. Right now I'm watching "Bones" on FO. Overscan cuts off the "X".
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post #1186 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 06:29 PM
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NBC screwed up the Muppets Christmas show by putting snipes on it.

HEY, you viewing dumbasses!

NOW!
NEW!
ALL NEW!

(insert name of show here)
NEXT!
8/9 PM ET
TUESDAY!
NEXT WEEK!
IN 2 WEEKS!



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post #1187 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

I'll have to check "Bones" at 9 since I don't watch reality crap. But other shows like Prison Break and House appear to be 4:3 safe,

Not sure when it is going to start, since it was a recent Fox announcement and it has to get through the show's production chain. With shows already in the can, it can't happen with those episodes.

Smallville has been doing 16:9 for quite a while now. 4:3 center-cut viewers get to see credits cut off

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post #1188 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by VisionOn View Post

I don't think they occur during the show either. Just returning from commercial.

But, that is during the show

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post #1189 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Not sure when it is going to start, since it was a recent Fox announcement and it has to get through the show's production chain. With shows already in the can, it can't happen with those episodes.

Smallville has been doing 16:9 for quite a while now. 4:3 center-cut viewers get to see credits cut off

But shouldn't that be stopping now? I remember hearing that even NBC was ordering 4:3 safe content for this season. Will FOX continue to push for this, even though it will mean pissing on their SDTV viewers? About the only thing I can think of is Saturday Night Live. So fat this season whenever they do a phony CSPAN broadcast about a current political event, the "CSPAN graphics" are all outside the 4:3 area. I really have to wonder why they would do that, especially since this seasons episodes will air in repeats after the transition point.

I've never understood what is going on at WB/CW. I just lumped it in with their general stupidity in broadcasting. Why would "Smallville" continue to make a product that is cut off on a vast majority of their viewer's screens? At this point, shooting for 16:9(putting graphics or action totally out of the center) should be considered suicide. The only palce you can guarantee it will be seen correctly is on HDTV sets, which are nowhere near a majority yet. The rest of the viewers are on cable or satellite SDTV, which is 4:3 cut. Or else you have CECBs, which most likely will also be 4:3 cut. How many viewers don't even know they have the power to control the Aspect Ratio plus who would willingly and voluntarily choose letterboxing on their 4x3 TV set? Shrink the picture to fit my (already)tiny screen, NO THANKS!!

This is the one area where I agree with CBS. Most(if not all) CBS programming is 4:3 safe. This way SDTV viewers continue to get their 4:3 picture and HD viewers get the full 16:9 picture. So, the sides are a little underutilized, I'm a moderate guy, I like my action centered anyway! I haven't been an NBC fan in years since they started imposing letterbox on SD viewers and now FOX is following suit in the scourge. Luckily, now my main viewing is on the HDTV channels, so whatever happens to SDTV doesn't matter much anymore.
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post #1190 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

But shouldn't that be stopping now? I remember hearing that even NBC was ordering 4:3 safe content for this season. Will FOX continue to push for this, even though it will mean pissing on their SDTV viewers?

Fox is pushing the AFD technology to get around the aspect ratio problem. All a customer has to do is tune in the HD version on the system and they can get the letterboxing back. They can also complain to their provider and that might get them to put in the AFD equipment.

The Fox announcement was part of the system upgrade release, which was a recent thing. I hope that the producers of shows do start with true 16:9 productions. This 4:3 safe thing sucks.

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Shrink the picture to fit my (already)tiny screen, NO THANKS!!

That is done all the time with anamorphic widescreen DVDs. People watch then in letterbox on their TVs. Viewers have been used to letterboxing on network shows for years. To have it suddenly go away might bring more complaints than those saying yippe.

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This is the one area where I agree with CBS. Most(if not all) CBS programming is 4:3 safe. This way SDTV viewers continue to get their 4:3 picture and HD viewers get the full 16:9 picture. So, the sides are a little underutilized, I'm a moderate guy, I like my action centered anyway! I haven't been an NBC fan in years since they started imposing letterbox on SD viewers and now FOX is following suit in the scourge. Luckily, now my main viewing is on the HDTV channels, so whatever happens to SDTV doesn't matter much anymore.

Sounds like you are a fan of full screen 4:3 TV images. I'm not. If the program/movie is produced widescreen, I want to see it all on my TV screen, even if it means letterboxing it. I hate it when I see shows where the shot would look much better composed full widescreen. Why even bother with 16:9 if the medium isn't going to be used to the fullest.

While this may seem silly, but Jeopardy! really looks dumb when they shoot all three contestants in the frame. It is composed for 4:3 and on the 16:9 screen it has wasted space, a lot of wasted space, all around the image. If they shot it for 16:9, the contestants would fill the screen more and go all the way out to the edges.

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post #1191 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 11:36 PM
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Continuing to compose for 4:3 (or making a move back to 4:3) is the wrong thing to do. Network TV is already starting on the path towards irrelevancy, and continuing to pander to the poor isn't going to help. In a time of economic downturn, it's not exactly a wise business decision to target your product at an audience that has no money while at the same time pissing on those who do. Time to make the product more upscale and go after those who still have some money to drop on the stuff your advertisers are selling. The airwaves may be public, but broadcasting is a business, and it's time that broadcasters listen to those who are really bankrolling their operations.
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post #1192 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 11:51 PM
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With a 4:3 display, I want a 4:3 picture. I'm only concerned about OAR for HDTV, since SDTV is going away soon and any changes are more drastic. With 4:3, there is no effect on the HDTV channel, the sides are just clipped off for SDTV viewers. I dislike shrinking a larger picture to fit a usually small screen. SDTV is already a horrible medium itself, the least we can do is maximize the viewing area on those tiny screens. It's not like the extra units on the sides make the show any better. Conan was never any funnier because he was widescreen on the SD channel. I like Jay Leno better and he's straight up 4:3 safe. And my favorite of all late night is 480i, 4:3 Craig Ferguson. The only way it effects the quality of the show is when ******* producers arbitrarily use the entire frame, even when not necessary(cough, cough SNL!!). There's no need for titles or credits to go wall to wall. The most common format I've seen is centering credits or centering lower thirds on newscasts.

Plus I'm more of a scenery guy, I enjoy the quality of the setting used on TV shows. It's come a long way since the cardboard looking sets. I really don't mind the extra, empty space. IDK, I guess it's just become "normal" since just about every show is 4:3 safe and when I see something utilizing the entire frame, that looks odd.

I've hated letterbox since NBC unleashed it on my 27inch CRT and wouldn't you know it's biting me in the ass again. Now, due to a lack of HDTV channels on cable, whenever a show is on that attempts "to give the SDTV viewer the whole picture", I get stuck with an awful windowboxed picture. Yes, it is a big screen so I don't mind sidebars since I hate stretched pictures. But having bars on four sides, something about that makes me want to go apeshit on the networks. It's insulting I have to watch a widescreen picture inside a widescreen TV. Unfortunately the only option is "zoom-o-vision" which makes the picture look even worse since a low resolution picture is "blown up".
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post #1193 of 3306 Old 12-17-2008, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

SDTV is already a horrible medium itself, the least we can do is maximize the viewing area on those tiny screens.

It's a horrible medium, so we need to crap on a good medium by pandering to those who are still using the horrible medium? Your argument is absurd.
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post #1194 of 3306 Old 12-18-2008, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by coyoteaz View Post

Continuing to compose for 4:3 (or making a move back to 4:3) is the wrong thing to do. Network TV is already starting on the path towards irrelevancy, and continuing to pander to the poor isn't going to help. In a time of economic downturn, it's not exactly a wise business decision to target your product at an audience that has no money while at the same time pissing on those who do. Time to make the product more upscale and go after those who still have some money to drop on the stuff your advertisers are selling. The airwaves may be public, but broadcasting is a business, and it's time that broadcasters listen to those who are really bankrolling their operations.

Ahhh, but this is where it the debate over who has the money begins. Are the advertisers and media more concerned with the, what is it now 25% with HDTV, or the larger portion with standard TV? As impressive as the growth of HDTV has been in the past few years, unfortunately we will still be ignored until at least 60 or 70%. It's already obvious in cable TV. They would rather cater to the larger section of the customer base that want analog only cable on their TVs than cater to the customers(who pay far more) who want more HDTV channels.

It's also not really a move "back" but a continuation of what has been going on for several years. If you look at shows like "Two and a Half men" and "CSI" along with FOX offerings like "House" and "Prison Break", they're already capable of being viewed in 4:3. Only one lone network(also the lowest rated, by chance) has been ranking out non 4:3 material and another is starting to try it.

Plus, the networks should get something worth watching on TV before we worry about how it is presented. Network TV isn't declining because of how it is presented, it is declining because of what is being presented. Some of the absolute crap on network TV today, much already in HD, couldn't even be saved by "ultra, super, special, 3D HD".
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post #1195 of 3306 Old 12-18-2008, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeremy W View Post

It's a horrible medium, so we need to crap on a good medium by pandering to those who are still using the horrible medium? Your argument is absurd.

How is it "Crapping"? The highest rated show CSI is not filmed for 16:9 in the sense people would be half chopped off if 4:3 cut, yet it looks just fine. Jay Leno is shown in 4:3 and 4:3 safe yet Conan was 16:9 safe an letterboxed. But neither show was necessarily "better" or "worse" due to aspect ratio alone.

I don't see how a show can be "crapped" over something so minor. Especially considering the network that brought letterboxing to network TV is number four out of four, yet the network that shows 4:3 SDTV and protects for 4:3 in their HD broadcasts is number one.

Of course there are issues of what the content of the programs are, but still. That shows that even "not crapping" by filming 16:9 and letterboxing can't save bad programming while a supposedly "crap" show can be good regardless of how it is filmed.
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post #1196 of 3306 Old 12-18-2008, 12:27 AM
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This is all subjective. All of the arguments presented here are valid. HD viewers are right to argue that they shouldn't be forced to have floating bugs for SD downconversion and SD viewers are right to be against having to watch a squashed picture because HD viewers want a full frame.

That's why technology is great. With DVDs we have a widescreen version and a P&S version. And I can't wait until all settop boxes have user defined aspect ratio controls. That way the networks can send out an OAR product and the viewers decide how it is watched, ending all these problems.

Plus, I hope mrvideo's dream of bug and snipe free TV becomes a reality, that way bug placement is a moot point, since there is no on screen bug at all!!
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post #1197 of 3306 Old 12-18-2008, 01:02 AM
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Ahhh, but this is where it the debate over who has the money begins. Are the advertisers and media more concerned with the, what is it now 25% with HDTV, or the larger portion with standard TV? As impressive as the growth of HDTV has been in the past few years, unfortunately we will still be ignored until at least 60 or 70%. It's already obvious in cable TV. They would rather cater to the larger section of the customer base that want analog only cable on their TVs than cater to the customers(who pay far more) who want more HDTV channels.

Not nearly as true as it once was. FiOS killed the last of their analog channels 2 months ago, RCN is working on doing the same, and Comcast is in the process of converting a couple major markets to only having limited basic on analog. The rest of the MSOs are slowly trimming their analog lineups to make way for HD, and the trend will only continue as D*, FiOS, and U-verse continue to press their advantages. Cable is starting to figure out that there's not enough money to be made when most of your customer base is paying $40/mo for expanded basic and nothing more. Yes, they're pushing the low-end crowd a bit to bring in new subs because of the transition, but they also realize that the real money is made selling HD, VOD, and PPV, and that can be seen in the heavy advertising push for those services.

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It's also not really a move "back" but a continuation of what has been going on for several years. If you look at shows like "Two and a Half men" and "CSI" along with FOX offerings like "House" and "Prison Break", they're already capable of being viewed in 4:3. Only one lone network(also the lowest rated, by chance) has been ranking out non 4:3 material and another is starting to try it.

NBC changing their policy to require that shows like The Office and SNL be made 4:3 safe would be a step back, just like going from HDNet's 16:9-only framing to the 4:3 framing on Versus and TSN is a step backwards for hockey.

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Plus, the networks should get something worth watching on TV before we worry about how it is presented. Network TV isn't declining because of how it is presented, it is declining because of what is being presented. Some of the absolute crap on network TV today, much already in HD, couldn't even be saved by "ultra, super, special, 3D HD".

True, but you can take some of the best content out there, chop n' crop it to 4:3 and have some douchebag from TBS walk on and advertise his latest show, and I still won't watch it. Content is certainly important, but doing a lousy job presenting it is just as likely to drive viewers away. The 1200 posts in this thread certainly speak to that.
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post #1198 of 3306 Old 12-18-2008, 03:27 AM
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How is it "Crapping"?

They are completely wasting the extra screen real estate that 16:9 gives them. You're basically saying HD should have been 4:3, because that's the way TV has always been. You want progress to be held back.
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post #1199 of 3306 Old 12-18-2008, 07:46 AM
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And I can't wait until all settop boxes have user defined aspect ratio controls. That way the networks can send out an OAR product and the viewers decide how it is watched, ending all these problems.

Umm, I don't know of any STBs that don't have this control and it is REQUIRED of the CECB boxes.

Even my many-year-old Samsung STB has that capability.

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post #1200 of 3306 Old 12-18-2008, 08:20 AM
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They are completely wasting the extra screen real estate that 16:9 gives them. You're basically saying HD should have been 4:3, because that's the way TV has always been. You want progress to be held back.

Thank you. You took the words right out of my mouth.

I could care less what the talk shows do. It is the scripted shows that can do wonders with widescreen, yet they are crippled into doing safe composition.

I agree that having a little widescreen show being displayed on a widescreen TV sucks. So, tune in the HD channel and watch it in full 16:9 HD on the TV, don't bitch about the little image. Watch the big image.

Just so nickdawg doesn't feel left out, there are plenty of others that do not like letterboxed images on their 4:3 TV.

Unfortunately there isn't a perfect solution to this problem, that is, not until all 4:3 TVs are gone from the face of the Earth.

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