What Does Your Fox Affiliate Bug Look Like? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 12:55 AM - Thread Starter
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A discussion has come up in another thread about the Fox affiliate bug that shows up in the lower right of the HD image. Because of the unique "splicer" that Fox uses at each affiliate, it can be loaded with a graphic of the affiliate's bug of choosing. Of course, there are restrictions. The current Fox standard for bug size and placement is shown in the single page PDF:

http://vidiot.com/Fox_HD_Logo_Specv4.2.pdf

Even though it is the latest, it contains an error that they appear to have not noticed and fixed. The 719 value on the far right side is really 709.

I'm building a collection of all the Fox affiliate bugs on a web page:

http://vidiot.com/cgi-bin/FoxBugs.cgi

Right now it only contains my local affiliate bug. When you hover the cursor over the logo, the station's call letters and city of registration will be shown. How that is done is browser dependent.

As indicated in the spec, the bug is no larger than 5000 pixels and is 96hx80v. The upper left corner of the bug placement area is 1120hx630v.

Here is what I need in order for the image to make the repository:

1) Capture a Fox program with the local bug on screen. An OTA ATSC card in a computer is the best way to capture some of the program. Try and capture some video where the background is dark.

2) Use a program, like VideoReDo to extract a frame.

3) Use a program , like Photoshop, to extract a 96 pixel wide by 80 pixel tall area of the image, starting at 1120h 630v (reference 0 is in the upper left).

4) Save the image as a TIFF, BMP or PNG (JPEGs are too lossy).

5) Put the 96x80 image in a zip file and e-mail it to me (vidiot at vidiot dot com), along with the station's call letters and official FCC city of registration. Use a subject of "Fox bug image" to grab my attention.

I'll then add it to the collection of images.

The reason for the complete 96x80 area is to see where Fox has been placing the images in the splicer, i.e., are they always using upperleft, or starting further down.

If you can't edit the 1280x720 image, you can send me the whole thing and I'll extract the image.

Please, no digital photos of your monitor, TV, etc. That does not provide for an accurate extraction of the bug image. It needs to be a direct ATSC transport stream capture and still image extraction. I know, not everyone can do that. But maybe you know someone who can. Have them do it for you.

Let's see if we can get all of the possible Fox affiliate bugs captured and see which are the best for being viewer friendly, i.e., really transparent, or really opaque and/or ugly.

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post #2 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 04:56 AM
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The stations create the bugs and then send them to FOX for uploading in the splicer. FOX doesn't create them. FOX has nothing to do with them. There is no commonality to them. Not every FOX affiliate's bug is wider than taller (such as the O & O's) and the station may have put the bug within a box that fits the splicer window thereby changing the size and location of the bug while still meeting the specs.

Bottom line, every bug is going to be a different size in a slightly different position on the screen that is a given and a known. FOX never sees the bug at anytime. Only the size of the file and the dims of that file. It is up to the station to be sure it looks correct on air.

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post #3 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 06:34 AM
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One of my local Fox affiliates, WFLX West Palm Beach, FL, has to switch to SD to show their bug. Any ideas why? It is my understanding that with the splicer, this should not happen.
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post #4 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Here is what I need in order for the image to make the repository:

1) Capture a Fox program with the local bug on screen. An OTA ATSC card in a computer is the best way to capture some of the program. Try and capture some video where the background is dark.

2) Use a program, like VideoReDo to extract a frame.

3) Use a program , like Photoshop, to extract a 96 pixel wide by 80 pixel tall area of the image, starting at 1120h 630v (reference 0 is in the upper left).

4) Save the image as a TIFF, BMP or PNG (JPEGs are too lossy).

5) Put the 96x80 image in a zip file and e-mail it to me (vidiot at vidiot dot com), along with the station's call letters and official FCC city of registration. Use a subject of "Fox bug image" to grab my attention.

I'll then add it to the collection of images.

Wow. That's lot of specific rules. I'll try to capture one later in accordance with your demands, but for now, here's Fox 5 in DC from a jpg framegrab I posted last week in the Sarah Connor Chronicles thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12919640

I was planning to recapture that frame anyways to investigate the combing/interlacing artifacts.
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post #5 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 07:34 AM
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post #6 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HofstraJet View Post

One of my local Fox affiliates, WFLX West Palm Beach, FL, has to switch to SD to show their bug. Any ideas why? It is my understanding that with the splicer, this should not happen.

Yes, the bug is in the splicer. If the station wants to show additional information then the splicer has to come off line.

All opinions expressed (unless otherwise noted) are the posters and NOT the posters employers. The poster in NO WAY is/will speak for his employers. "Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig. After a couple of hours, you realize the pig likes it"
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post #7 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 08:03 AM
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I will note when it happens again and take a pic and post it (no HTPC for screen caps).
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post #8 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post


I'm building a collection of all the Fox affiliate bugs on a web page:

Why?

There are approximately 180 FOX affiliates. Since they could conceivably all do something different, you better have lots of room on your server.

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post #9 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foxeng View Post

The stations create the bugs and then send them to FOX for uploading in the splicer. FOX doesn't create them. FOX has nothing to do with them. There is no commonality to them. Not every FOX affiliate's bug is wider than taller (such as the O & O's) and the station may have put the bug within a box that fits the splicer window thereby changing the size and location of the bug while still meeting the specs.

I never implied that Fox created them. I'm sure I specifically said that the affiliates created them. Though I never did say that they sent them to Fox, but I did say that Fox loaded them into the splicer.

Quote:
Bottom line, every bug is going to be a different size in a slightly different position on the screen that is a given and a known. FOX never sees the bug at anytime. Only the size of the file and the dims of that file. It is up to the station to be sure it looks correct on air.

According to the spec, the bug has to be 5000 pixels, or less, fit within a 96x80 box, with a key file of 80% white. I suspect that whomever handles the files uploaded to the ftp server will look to make sure that the image is within spec, then they will send it to the splicer. The upper left of the box will always be located at 1120x630, if they follow their own spec.

When the local bug was first loaded into the splicer it was loaded into the wrong location. The lower right corner of the 96x80 box was placed at 1120x630, placing the bug up and to the left from where it was supposed to be. For a long time I complained to the local station that the bug was in the wrong place. They kept saying they had nothing to do with it, which was kinda right. After I finally discovered the spec document, I sent e-mail to the Fox person that handled bugs at the time and with 48 hours, a new friendlier looking bug was created (same style, different coloring) and loaded into the correct location. As the Fox contact pointed out, they rely upon the station to look and make sure that it is in the correct location. They never did that for the initial load.

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post #10 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HofstraJet View Post

One of my local Fox affiliates, WFLX West Palm Beach, FL, has to switch to SD to show their bug. Any ideas why? It is my understanding that with the splicer, this should not happen.

Huh? You get bug-free HD images (except when Fox puts up their transparent FOX bug during live programming)?

Are you saying that HD programming is screwed over with them going to SD?

But, you are right, they should have created a couple of BMP images (the fill and key files) and sent them to Fox for downloading into the splicer. All of the instructions, including the PDF that I referenced, are available for their staff to download.

I would contact their chief engineer and politely ask what the deal is.

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post #11 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

Why?

There are approximately 180 FOX affiliates. Since they could conceivably all do something different, you better have lots of room on your server.

Too see what they look like, as mentioned in the first posting. I'm hoping they are all different. That is the point. To see who has the best and worst bug.

The 96x80 PNG files are only about 14k in size. That is only about 3MB total. That is a drop in the bucket on my server.

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post #12 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Wow. That's lot of specific rules. I'll try to capture one later in accordance with your demands, but for now, here's Fox 5 in DC from a jpg framegrab I posted last week in the Sarah Connor Chronicles thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12919640

Needed to be specific, otherwise there wouldn't be commonality in what is presented.

What you have posted will work. I'll grab that image later when I am at home.

Quote:
I was planning to recapture that frame anyways to investigate the combing/interlacing artifacts.

If you can send an updated image in non-JPEG, that would be nice.

What combing/interlacing artifacts? Fox is progressive, so where does interlacing come into play?

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post #13 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 10:06 AM
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You can find all sorts of screen caps on this page, just enter a zip code:
http://www.silicondust.com/wiki/hdhomerun/channels
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post #14 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 10:06 AM
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KVVU - Fox 5 Las Vegas



(Cropped from this screen cap)
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post #15 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

The upper left corner of the bug placement area is 1120hx630v.

I suppose they chose it to be just outside the 4:3 and scope areas.
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post #16 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 11:32 AM
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post #17 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Too see what they look like, as mentioned in the first posting. I'm hoping they are all different. That is the point. To see who has the best and worst bug.

The best and worst bug. Hmmm......

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post #18 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrvideo View Post

Needed to be specific, otherwise there wouldn't be commonality in what is presented.

What you have posted will work. I'll grab that image later when I am at home.



If you can send an updated image in non-JPEG, that would be nice.

What combing/interlacing artifacts? Fox is progressive, so where does interlacing come into play?

You don't see the jagged artifacts in the screengrab I posted?

Here's the Fox5-DC bug from the original screengrab:


For that one, I used VideoRedo then saved as jpg.

But throughout the frame, even though it's 720p, it looks like bad deinterlacing.

So I grabbed the frame again using VLC, saved as PNG and cropped out the Fox bug for you...


Much better IMHO and IAW your directions.

I'll PM you the link to the full frame PNG. It's 930Kb. I saved the PNG frame as a JPG and replaced the original screengrab which looked jagged.

"WTTG-DT"
WTF is "-DT"? Digital Television? Is that a new acronym to cover "TV+HDTV= DT"?
Or did they misspell "-DC"?
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post #19 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

"WTTG-DT"
WTF is "-DT"? Digital Television?

Yes.

Quote:


Is that a new acronym to cover "TV+HDTV= DT"?
Or did they misspell "-DC"?

Analog call sign is WTTG-TV. Digital call sign is WTTG-DT. All stations call signs are formatted in this way.

Drop pay-TV. Put up an antenna. Enjoy free HDTV. Save $60-100 or more per month!
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post #20 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

Wow. That's lot of specific rules. I'll try to capture one later in accordance with your demands, but for now, here's Fox 5 in DC from a jpg framegrab I posted last week in the Sarah Connor Chronicles thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12919640

I was planning to recapture that frame anyways to investigate the combing/interlacing artifacts.


They actually use that full color bug during HD programming? That sucks!

At least here in Cleveland it's a small text bug in the bottom right corner. The brightness isn't too bad.


FOX 8-1
WJW-DT CLEVELAND
D I G I T A L
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post #21 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 01:17 PM
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I checked that site and I found a 16:9 picture from WJW w/ the bug.


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post #22 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpr281 View Post

WNYW New York

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Wnyw.png

That is their logo, but not what is physically displayed on the HD video via the splicer.

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post #23 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by machpost View Post

You can find all sorts of screen caps on this page, just enter a zip code:
http://www.silicondust.com/wiki/hdhomerun/channels

All images are not full sized and appear to sample local programming, no network programming. The fact that they aren't full sized precludes their use.

Nice idea though.

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post #24 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 01:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik Garci View Post

I suppose they chose it to be just outside the 4:3 and scope areas.

As indicated in the logo PDF, the upper left location is one pixel to the right of the 4:3 area and one pixel down from the cinemascope letterbox area.

Fox did put some thought into the size and placement of the bug.

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post #25 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken H View Post

The best and worst bug. Hmmm......

I know, an oxymoron, considering that all bugs are bad.

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post #26 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 01:51 PM
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As I said, and I deal with this EVERYDAY, the actual size and position of the bug can float within the window if the station wishes to make it smaller and move it within the window. There is nothing to say that a station can't make a file the required size and within that place a smaller bug. It has happened and will happen again.

I know what the memo says from FOX. There were two copies and you have the later version. I have the both versions.

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post #27 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarence View Post

You don't see the jagged artifacts in the screengrab I posted?

I looked at it very quickly when I was home for lunch and definately had a problem reading the text in the bug. I wondered what was up with that.

Quote:


Here's the Fox5-DC bug from the original screengrab:


For that one, I used VideoRedo then saved as jpg.

But throughout the frame, even though it's 720p, it looks like bad deinterlacing.

What version of VideoReDo, since I use that all the time for doing screen grabs (Ctrl-C saves as BMP). As you can see from the Fox47 bug that is on the web page, I've never had VRD screw up a screen grabs. Maybe it is a display setting in VRD that is messing you up.

Quote:


So I grabbed the frame again using VLC, saved as PNG and cropped out the Fox bug for you...


Much better IMHO and IAW your directions.

I've never gotten VLC to do a frame grab for me. I tell it to frame grab, but can never find where it placed the image, nor has it asked me for a file name or a place to put it.

Does indeed look better. It has to be a VRD display issue. All of the images on this web page (the ones used for the stupid snipe diatribe) are all done with VRD:

http://vidiot.com/TVShows/

Quote:


"WTTG-DT"
WTF is "-DT"? Digital Television? Is that a new acronym to cover "TV+HDTV= DT"?
Or did they misspell "-DC"?

It is a FCC designation for the digital transmission. It is a way for the station to separately designate their digital channel, so it is indeed Digital Television.

They might be able to drop the DT once analog is turned off and they only have a single channel.

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post #28 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimp2244 View Post

Analog call sign is WTTG-TV.

The -TV doesn't have to be used. I suspect that the -DT will also go away not too long after the analog channels are turned off.

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post #29 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

They actually use that full color bug during HD programming? That sucks!

Yep. AFAIK, most Fox affiliates have full color bugs.

You are one of the lucky few.

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post #30 of 85 Old 01-30-2008, 02:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickdawg View Post

I checked that site and I found a 16:9 picture from WJW w/ the bug.

Interesting. Figures that the couple of zip codes that I put in didn't have full sized images.

The site needs a city search, not a zip code search, as I have no clue regarding various city zip codes.

I'll use it until a better copy comes along. Thanks for finding it.

BTW, that is the way those bugs should look.... dim gray transparent. It is unfortunate that Fox allows the bugs to be full color. Someone must of that that would be neat. Think again.

"You're Sherlock Holmes, wear the damn hat!" - Watson to Sherlock
Sherlock - The Abominable Bride - 1/01/16
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