Builder has wiring limitations. Best way to sneak in & do it myself? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by NahLaterz View Post

well... how do you really feel about the situation?

i was pretty straight forward and called it exactly the way i see it.

if you have to ask, you cant afford me!

i like to go fast!
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post #62 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by eonibm View Post

Jeez I think you should stop calling yourself a professional. Your rant and the language you used above makes you sound like something very different to the real professionals on here.

you obviously take me for someone who cares what you or anyone else on this board thinks..... i could care less !!!!!!!


i just call it the way i see it.

if you have to ask, you cant afford me!

i like to go fast!
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post #63 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ceied View Post

you obviously take me for someone who cares what you or anyone else on this board thinks..... i could care less !!!!!!!


i just call it the way i see it.

Well if you actually could not care less you wouldn't bother to waste time responding to us all the time, rather than attending to your clients, now would you? LOL. You might want to be more easy-going and show some manners. Life might work better for you that way.
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post #64 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 12:45 PM
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Sometimes the builder is not being a hard ass just because he can or he wants to be. Very often there are subs on the job (and in many areas these are union subs) that take a real narrow view to a non-pro or non-union entity "stealing" their work. I've had jobs that I've worked on ruined because we were a non-union company working on a union job site. Not saying that unions are evil (also not saying that only union guys are guilty of this) but there are more players in this besides just the builder and the homeowner.
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post #65 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Mattman View Post

there are more players in this besides just the builder and the homeowner.

Who hires these subs and puts them under contract? The builder?!

Its certainly a very dynamic issue for everyone. There is no way you will make everyone happy in these situations. The builder has whatever contracts with the sub - the subs want to cover anything and everything under the sun that has anything possible to do with their line of work, so they can maximize profit. At the end of the day, I feel that it is the home owner that should have the most end satisfaction, he's the customer. What happened to "the customer is always right"?

Whether it's the buyers property or home "at the moment", it will be in a few short months, and he's likely already signed a contract stating the purchase of the home whether closing is completed or not. If there were some issues where the home owner damaged other work while he ran his own wiring, then it should be up to him to cover those costs to have it repaired, but I dont think he should be stopped from pulling some copper he pays for, in his own home. This stuff could be (and should be) negotiated and written into the initial offer on the home, whether the buyer would accept this or not, is a different story. But, it's probably the best way to start off the topic, rather than confronting the builder at a later date, being shut down and not having a foot to stand on.
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post #66 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 01:21 PM
 
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i could care less !!!!!!!

So, you do care....or, your command of english is pathetic.
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post #67 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 02:06 PM
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I will also note, that the electricians who did my home used Cat5e for my phone lines (pretty standard now, rather than using 22/4). They used BLUE cable. After I noticed their BLUE, I ended up pulling GREY Cat5e for my networking purposes... they still terminated 2 or 3 of my cables with phone jacks, apparently not even noticing the difference in color. Goes to show how much they paid attention to what work was there's and what they didn't do.

After I removed the phone wall plates, and made my network connections, I offered to give the phone wall plates back to them - assuming they could use them on another home. They told me to toss them in the trash. Apparently, not too concerned about cutting costs, saving any money, or being GREEN. ::shrug::
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post #68 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eonibm View Post

I disagree, but anyway... Let's agree to differ and not get nasty.

I cannot agree to differ. The advice you are giving is just plain bad. The prospect of giving the advice to not run tubes is just completely asinine. When I said you were selling inexperience, I was not trying to be insulting, just serious and trying to help any person who might actually listen to this. Any person who had been in our industry for any longer than a couple of weeks would understand how indespensible conduit is. You really should refrain from giving such advice without truly understanding the nature of what you are saying.

When you say I have something to sell, that is true, however rough-in wiring is not a profit center, equipment and installation labor is where we make our profit. While many here on AVS can't understand why we need to make margin on equipment, let me assure you, or net profit is not really that big. Gross margin on equipment can look pretty good up front, but when you factor in all of our expenses from things like training, shipping of DOA equipment, insurance, vehicle expenses, and all of the other stuff it takes to properly run any kind of business, the net is not that great. Many of us who have chosen to become professional integrators have done so because we are enthusiasts first, business people second.

With regard to CEIED, he's not so great with either perceived professionalism or the english language, but let me assure you, the guy really knows what he is talking about.

I really don't mean to be an a-hole, but I cannot stand by and watch inaccurate advice be dispensed.

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post #69 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by eastonaltree View Post

I cannot stand by and watch inaccurate advice be dispensed.

Good. I can't either which is why I am posting my opinion. So, we are on the same page.
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post #70 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 03:25 PM
 
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Quote:


but I cannot stand by and watch inaccurate advice be dispensed.

these fora must drive you nuts then.
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post #71 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duvetyne View Post

these fora must drive you nuts then.


Pretty much, I was directed here by a colleague to check out another thread, and stumbled upon this one. I really need to check out and leave the blind to lead the blind.

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post #72 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 03:50 PM
 
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I read 'em for the laughs.
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post #73 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 05:44 PM
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I'm not sure why this so quickly devolved into name calling.

As an integrator I'll add my own 2 cents. First let's define conduit. There are different types of conduit and as they say assumption is the mother of all evil so let's make sure we are talking about the same thing, or at the least add some qualifications to the use of the term. There is rigid conduit (of different flavors) and flexible conduit (also of different flavors such as metal and plastic).

Generally speaking flexible plastic conduit can be run fairly quickly and is of reasonable cost. It's an excellent method of "future proofing". Running conduit also does not mean that conduit has to be run "everywhere" (though it can be when budget/time/size of project allows). As an example, if a house has an attic and a crawl space or unfinished basement, it's an excellent practice to run a 2" or 3" pipe from the main equipment location to the attic, and also to the crawl space or basement. Now you have a method to get a cable to almost every area of the house in the future if you can drop down a wall from the attic, or shoot up a wall from the basement (assuming you don't have horizontal firewalls).

Even better (in addition to the above practice) is to simply run a stub from the primary A/V location in each room to the basement or attic (if the room is on the second floor you run the stub to the attic, if it's on the first floor to the basement). In other words, let's assume you have a 3" pipe that runs from the basement to the attic and let's assume your equipment room is in the basement. And all the A/V locations on the second floor have a pipe that stubs up the wall to the attic. Now you can run cable from the basement equipment room by going up the 3" pipe to the attic, and then from drop right into any room on the second floor at any time via the short stubs you ran into the attic.

In a nutshell, I think it's hard to make a good argument against running some conduit .

If you think you may want to run cable in the future I also advice you to spend a couple of hours in the house pre-insulation taking pictures of the interior of every wall and ceiling. This can be unbelievably useful later on down the line if you need to run a cable, and know what the inside of every wall looks like. It can be additionally useful if you ever need to service the house for the unfortunate things that can sometimes crop up behind the walls, and you have pictures of what is back there.
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post #74 of 85 Old 02-10-2009, 10:36 PM
 
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Another reason to have conduit: just in case you forget something or someone damages a wire (say in drywalling). I just found one wire that was not run in my garage. Even though I caught it just in time (drywall starts Monday), I was not too worried because we had run conduit as Q mentions. If you can find a way to route it, conduit can be run very quickly. It took a couple of hours for half a dozen runs we have. We found ways to run them without drilling big holes everywhere.
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post #75 of 85 Old 02-11-2009, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastonaltree View Post

Pretty much, I was directed here by a colleague to check out another thread, and stumbled upon this one. I really need to check out and leave the blind to lead the blind.

Please don't! Many on AVS forum really do appreciate people like you posting. There are definitely others who seem to have nothing better to do than comment on anything and everything (most of which they have very little experience with). Its obvious with your posts that you know what you are talking about. I think its up to the readers to 'filter out the noise'. Please keep posting! By the way, after spending 100s of hours running new cables throughout my home, I would have KILLED to have conduit.
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post #76 of 85 Old 02-11-2009, 05:23 PM
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Very interesting discussion. Since the OP has sorted out his situation, but the discussion continues, I thought I'd poke in.

I'm in the preliminary stages of a remodel. Prelimary in that we are just talking about it.

My thinking was to run wire to wherever we might reasonably consider
needing it, and conduit to allow for easier future changes. I can't see the point in running wire to someplace I don't think I'll need it, on the other hand I do want a way to potentially add wire. (Our house was built in 1938, plaster over metal lathe - I am so thankful that at one point it had a kitchen in a different location, and when the kitchen was moved they left the drain pipes in place - they are now serving as LV conduit).

One issue about conduit is potential fire problems. Current code requires fire blocks. I assume this to to slow spread of fire from one floor to another. Might empty conduit be a problem with fire codes ? (yes I'll check before before I continue - like I said prelimary stages . . . For now I just stuff fibreglass into the end
of the pipe/conduit - better than what was there, i.e. nothing)

Wire is cheap, so is conduit, but installation is not. It comes down I think to flexibility - and in that case a conduit is better than a bunch of wires IMO

If anybody has suggestions on links to general remodeling I'd love to hear about them.

Everything I say here is my opinion. It is not my employers opinion, it is not my wife's opinion, it is not my neighbors opinion, it is My Opinion.
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post #77 of 85 Old 02-12-2009, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eonibm View Post

I beg to differ.

If the guy wants to sell you a house for a few hundred grand (or more) then he's not going to nix the deal just for the sake of you wanting to install your own structured wiring.

The company I dealt with absolutely refused, even if it meant losing the sale. This included not accepting me hiring an electrician to do it, even if I paid the developer extra just to allow the electrician on the premises.
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post #78 of 85 Old 11-05-2015, 01:35 PM
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Has anyone had problems with their builder on terminating your CAT6 or CAT5E rough in cables with a connector? I want to install a POE camera system so I need the CAT6 cables at several locations both interiorly and exteriorly. They're charging me an outrageous amount for the rough ins per location and they're saying they won't terminate the wires for me.
Are there any bylaws or building codes that restricts them on terminating them?
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post #79 of 85 Old 11-05-2015, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by topstuff_27 View Post
Has anyone had problems with their builder on terminating your CAT6 or CAT5E rough in cables with a connector? I want to install a POE camera system so I need the CAT6 cables at several locations both interiorly and exteriorly. They're charging me an outrageous amount for the rough ins per location and they're saying they won't terminate the wires for me.
Are there any bylaws or building codes that restricts them on terminating them?
what was on your plans? in your contract?
any verbage in the contract for change orders?

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post #80 of 85 Old 11-05-2015, 09:00 PM
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Really? A nearly 7 year old thread?
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post #81 of 85 Old 11-05-2015, 09:02 PM
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Did you wire the cat cables yourself? Did your builder do it through a contractor?


Need more info.
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post #82 of 85 Old 01-19-2016, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by amillians View Post


Tread carefully.

As others have noted, if this is a spec home being built that you are buying (a very different scenario than building a home), you don't own *anything* until you close, and the builder is probably expecting you *not* to close, so the house has to stay to spec.

You could breach your purchase contract (and lose your earnest money) and even face a lawsuit from the builder for essentially vandalizing their work property. Even if you "get away with it," you could retroactively void your builder's warranty if something bad happens and they find out (read a sample warranty first). Also, you could be violating local ordinances doing the work yourself, depending upon your location, resulting in fines and possibly even having to rip it all out and have it re-done by a licensed/bonded LV contractor.

The bigger the builder, the less likely you have any wiggle room here.

I've been down this road with a high volume spec builder. If you own the land and you hired the builder, different story.

I just wanted to voice my disappointment as well thus why I registered.

Nothing much has changed since 7 years ago when OP made this thread. I'm building a tract (spec) home and the quote above has it down. There are separate parts of the contract clearly indicating not allowing any work to be done while the house is being built, and big example is the wiring. They have a section specifically on the subject and how potential owners/buyers are not to do such things. Only after you close and have the keys can you do your own thing.

The builder wants $130 PER LINE, whether it be RG6 or cat5e/cat6.
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post #83 of 85 Old 01-19-2016, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MoDa65 View Post
Nothing much has changed since 7 years ago when OP made this thread. I'm building a tract (spec) home and the quote above has it down. There are separate parts of the contract clearly indicating not allowing any work to be done while the house is being built, and big example is the wiring. They have a section specifically on the subject and how potential owners/buyers are not to do such things. Only after you close and have the keys can you do your own thing.
With any tract / spec home builder, my advice is to have that conversation with the project manager, not the salesman. The project manager can make lots of "impossible" things happen - like letting you run your own LV wires. It's in your best interest to get to know the PM well and show your competence - that you're not going to screw anything up, stay out of their way, and not cause any problems with the trades or their scheduling.


Quote:
The builder wants $130 PER LINE, whether it be RG6 or cat5e/cat6.
Very typical rate. If it comes down to paying for the runs as the only option, then you prioritize: 1) stuff you absolutely need day 1. 2) locations that are inaccessible after drywall without major surgery, 3) exterior walls where access or insulation will make it a pain to retrofit.

The other option is to talk to the PM and/or the LV subcontractor to work out a better deal. For example, running three wires to the same location is much less expensive (labor) than three individual runs- so ask for a discount when you do that. Terminating takes time and money - see if they'll cut you a deal if they don't have to terminate (and test), and just leave bare wires for you - that will only be for the "above and beyond" the basic set, though...

My house was a custom builder, and I fully expected to do most of the LV myself. But having a conversation with their subcontractor - and coming in with a full plan - diagrams, wire estimates, no terminations on the extra stuff, and spools of wire for them to use - they quoted me a labor price that was, in hindsight, a bargain. I had them do all the hard work, and I terminate a few more wires every year.

But I've had the same conversation with spec builders' project managers, and while YMMV, I've had good luck with them...

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post #84 of 85 Old 01-23-2016, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoDa65 View Post
The builder wants $130 PER LINE, whether it be RG6 or cat5e/cat6.
For a pulled. Terminated. Tested and labeled line that is a reasonable price.

Visit 1.
Cable to pull.
In wall cable hanging / protecting.

Visit 2.
LV back boxes

Visit 3
LV plates
Termination keystrokes

Testing and terminating equipment.

Labeling.

And of course if the GC puts a nail through a cable you are working for free to fix that.

Plus in some states licencing
And in all states insurance, disability, workers comp.
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post #85 of 85 Old 08-04-2016, 10:59 PM
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The other way to do this is, well what I just did was, have builder do some lv wiring. I had 10 coax and 20 cat5 run, and surround sound to main living space because it's two story. They pulled 16awg speaker wire. So over a few nights, I replaced the wire with 12awg, pulled total 10 ceiling speaker runs, 5 more cat5 to spots I couldn't plan well before, and some strategic holes to pull through later.

Timing is everything. You want to slide in right as they are wrapping up and getting ready for inspection and closing the walls. Make sure to use the right cable, and same staples etc they use. Here they use fire block foam, so I used it too. Hide everything possible and make sure everything visible is impeccably neat and to code. I used black 14awg speaker wire for the ceiling because it looks sort of like coax or hvac wire and doesn't draw attention like white wire.

They hung fiberglass two days ago and it's staple free so was very easy to hide wires behind. Mostly youd rather be ahead of the insulation but it can really help hide your wire. Pulled about 850 feet of speaker cable. Some is visible, most is hidden or subtle. Put ceiling speaker wires behind joists so they are only visible if you look from the wall up, nobody will see them.

I had them run but not terminate the network for 60 a run. One spot they put the hole in the bottom plate where a drywall screw could totally hit the wires so I drilled another hole and moved the wires.

Wish I could be there to see their faces when the av guys come back and find 12awg and three subwoofer runs (marked don't terminate) etc. Anyway this can totally be done with a little creativity.

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