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post #781 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 07:38 AM
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Good morning

We are getting ready to add a couple of more MoCA adapters in the next few days. We live in a new home and apparently the coax outlets in the bedrooms (where we're adding MoCA adapters) are not terminated.
Comcast tech is coming Saturday to terminate two coax outlets.

I'm a novice at best with this stuff. I'm curious as to what "terminating" these outlets involves? Basically I want to make sure that after this is done, I can just plug the MoCA adapters in and we're good to go. I'm just unclear on what terminating is and how these outlets tie into our coax "network" throughout the house.

Hopefully that made sense.

I've read a bit about using a PoE filter and how that can increase MoCA network efficiency. Although our current system seems to work reliably, I was thinking of getting one of these filters. Has anyone purchased one of these? If so, where can they be had at, and secondly, where exactly would this filter be placed?

I *think* this is how our network is laid out now.
Basement
Coax outlet => Antronix splitter => 1 line from split to Moxi HD-DVR
2nd line => MoCA adapter (netgear) => Motorola Docsis 3.0 Modem => DLink DIR-655 wireless router

Upstairs living room
(already terminated) coax outlet => MoCA adapter => Moxi Mate

Master bedroom
(to be terminated) coax outlet => MoCA adapter => Moxi Mate

Craft room (across hall from master)
(to be terminated) coax outlet => MoCA adapter => switch or wireless repeater

Would this type of network benefit from the PoE filter?
Thanks for taking a look at this and your thoughts, opinions, etc.

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post #782 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skid71 View Post

Good morning

We are getting ready to add a couple of more MoCA adapters in the next few days. We live in a new home and apparently the coax outlets in the bedrooms (where we're adding MoCA adapters) are not terminated.
Comcast tech is coming Saturday to terminate two coax outlets.

I'm a novice at best with this stuff. I'm curious as to what "terminating" these outlets involves? Basically I want to make sure that after this is done, I can just plug the MoCA adapters in and we're good to go. I'm just unclear on what terminating is and how these outlets tie into our coax "network" throughout the house.

Well, terminating is just putting a cap on the outlet. You do that so that over-the-air frequencies don't get into your cable system (messing up your signal-to-noise ratio, which will cause issues with your TV). If you are going to hook something up to the jacks, then it is pointless!


Quote:
I've read a bit about using a PoE filter and how that can increase MoCA network efficiency. Although our current system seems to work reliably, I was thinking of getting one of these filters. Has anyone purchased one of these? If so, where can they be had at, and secondly, where exactly would this filter be placed?
...
Would this type of network benefit from the PoE filter?
Thanks for taking a look at this and your thoughts, opinions, etc.

Possibly. A PoE filter prevents MoCA frequencies from getting into/out of your house which both prevents interference and lessens the load on the MoCA bridges since it isn't driving the load out to the curb. That said, no one has yet reported a measured performance improvement using one.

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post #783 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 09:00 AM
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Actually, the terminating cap is a 75 ohm resistor that is gentler than shorting out the connection but still reduces the current available at the other jacks.

As xnappo says, if you're going to plug into that jack, you're going to be taking off the terminating cap anyway, so it makes no difference to you, since it won't be attached!

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post #784 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

Well, terminating is just putting a cap on the outlet. You do that so that over-the-air frequencies don't get into your cable system (messing up your signal-to-noise ratio, which will cause issues with your TV). If you are going to hook something up to the jacks, then it is pointless!




Possibly. A PoE filter prevents MoCA frequencies from getting into/out of your house which both prevents interference and lessens the load on the MoCA bridges since it isn't driving the load out to the curb. That said, no one has yet reported a measured performance improvement using one.

xnappo

xnappo,
Thank you for the reply!
So should I even bother to have a Comcast tech come out for the two bedroom coax outlets? If I read your reply correctly... these two outlets should already be "hot" and I can just proceed with installing the MoCA adapters without needing Comcast to provide a truck roll to the house, or any "button pressing", or anything on their end?

My assumption was that they (Comcast) had to come out to terminate (I read..activate) before we could use those outlets for ANYTHING. We're talking just a straight coax run into a tv set, MoCA, etc.

Just to trying to be crystal clear. Obviously I wouldn't want to pay for a truck roll if it isn't necessary.

Thanks again,
Jeff

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post #785 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

Actually, the terminating cap is a 75 ohm resistor that is gentler than shorting out the connection but still reduces the current available at the other jacks.

As xnappo says, if you're going to plug into that jack, you're going to be taking off the terminating cap anyway, so it makes no difference to you, since it won't be attached!

After reading this I cannot even be considered a novice. So I do need the truck roll from Comcast to take off the terminating cap? Is this something that I can do? Is it behind the coax wall faceplate?

I know I'm sounding quite stupid, but I really do appreciate the help.

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post #786 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 10:34 AM
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The terminating cap is just screwed into the end of the jack where you would otherwise screw in your own cable. You would simply unscrew it to plug your own cable in. It's kind of like the plastic things that parents plug into ac outlets to keep their kids from sticking anything in.

You don't need them to come out either to put it on or take it off!

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post #787 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skid71 View Post

After reading this I cannot even be considered a novice. So I do need the truck roll from Comcast to take off the terminating cap? Is this something that I can do? Is it behind the coax wall faceplate?

I know I'm sounding quite stupid, but I really do appreciate the help.

Skid

It is just this thing:
http://www.amazon.com/Type-75-Ohm-Te...1555696&sr=8-1

It just screws on. DEFINITELY no need to get Comcast involved at all!

I will mention that instead of terminating unused jacks, I usually just use the appropriate splitter at the PoE and leave them completely unconnected.

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post #788 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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FYI - crazy low price on the Netgear MoCA box at Amazon right now. Pair for $80.

Third party tho...

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post #789 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

FYI - crazy low price on the Netgear MoCA box at Amazon right now. Pair for $80.

Third party tho...

xnappo

not sure what amazon page you're seeing that on - i didn't see anything that low at the website.

"..where you will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy."

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post #790 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:04 PM
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Idle query: Are MoCa boxes from different manufacturers interoperable? My setup uses a pair of Verizon FiOs Actiontecs - would a Netgear box integrate into that system if I wanted to expand to a third location and couldn't find an Actiontec?

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post #791 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skid71 View Post

Good morning

I *think* this is how our network is laid out now.
Basement
Coax outlet => Antronix splitter => 1 line from split to Moxi HD-DVR
2nd line => MoCA adapter (netgear) => Motorola Docsis 3.0 Modem => DLink DIR-655 wireless router


Skid

So the SAT output is going to your Modem and router?! I have to check mine to see if I have it set up that way...

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post #792 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post

So the SAT output is going to your Modem and router?! I have to check mine to see if I have it set up that way...

He says he's using a splitter, not diplexer, so neither terminal is a SAT output: both get the same thing:

"Coax outlet => Antronix splitter => 1 line from split to Moxi HD-DVR
2nd line => MoCA adapter (netgear) => Motorola Docsis 3.0 Modem => DLink DIR-655 wireless router"

If you use a diplexer, the SAT output should go to the MoCa box.

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post #793 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

He says he's using a splitter, not diplexer, so neither terminal is a SAT output: both get the same thing:

"Coax outlet => Antronix splitter => 1 line from split to Moxi HD-DVR
2nd line => MoCA adapter (netgear) => Motorola Docsis 3.0 Modem => DLink DIR-655 wireless router"

If you use a diplexer, the SAT output should go to the MoCa box.

I read it but I was not familiar with "antronix" brand so I took "splitter" as to mean a diplexer (my 'bad').

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post #794 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

It is just this thing:
http://www.amazon.com/Type-75-Ohm-Te...1555696&sr=8-1

It just screws on. DEFINITELY no need to get Comcast involved at all!

I will mention that instead of terminating unused jacks, I usually just use the appropriate splitter at the PoE and leave them completely unconnected.

xnappo

xnappo, your last sentence has me confused. Maybe I don't know how the coax network operates. After today's posts and replies, I assume that the coax network is connected... for instance behind the sheetrock, through the studs and such that each coax outlet is connected to each other. AND since that is the case, there is no need for a Comcast technician to come out to the house to do anything. I suppose my confusion with your last sentence is after the splitter at PoE, what is the "them" that you are leaving completely unconnected?

Thanks for your patience and knowledge.

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post #795 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

FYI - crazy low price on the Netgear MoCA box at Amazon right now. Pair for $80.

Third party tho...

xnappo

I noticed this as well yesterday xnappo and had to jump on it. I have already received shipping confirmation with tracking # from I believe... Adams Cable Co.

Summer 2010 I believe we paid $180 for the first pair of Netgear MoCA adapters.

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post #796 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

Idle query: Are MoCa boxes from different manufacturers interoperable? My setup uses a pair of Verizon FiOs Actiontecs - would a Netgear box integrate into that system if I wanted to expand to a third location and couldn't find an Actiontec?

Yes. However the network speed and limit to number of boxes will be limited to the MoCA version of the earliest MoCA version.

See the FAQ for details:
http://www.mocalliance.org/aboutus/faq.php

It looks like MoCA 2.0 will talk to 1.1/1.0 boxes but can continue to operate at full speed with other 2.0 boxes.

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post #797 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skid71 View Post

xnappo, your last sentence has me confused. Maybe I don't know how the coax network operates. After today's posts and replies, I assume that the coax network is connected... for instance behind the sheetrock, through the studs and such that each coax outlet is connected to each other. AND since that is the case, there is no need for a Comcast technician to come out to the house to do anything. I suppose my confusion with your last sentence is after the splitter at PoE, what is the "them" that you are leaving completely unconnected?

Thanks for your patience and knowledge.

Jeff

At least in houses built after ~1980 at the PoE there is a cable coming from the street, and then a box inside or outside your house that has a splitter(sometimes multiple) with a cable going to each room. I am just saying that in my house, I just use a 4-way splitter because I only use cable in 4 of the 7 rooms with cable, and leave the other 3 disconnected completely. Since they aren't connected to the cable system at all, obviously there is no need to do anything at the wall jack.

Your house wiring may be different...

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post #798 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

Idle query: Are MoCa boxes from different manufacturers interoperable? My setup uses a pair of Verizon FiOs Actiontecs - would a Netgear box integrate into that system if I wanted to expand to a third location and couldn't find an Actiontec?

Philnick,
After reading many blogs, reviews, etc. I believe MoCA devices are interoperable. There MAY be an issue between specs. Example MoCA 1.0 to 1.1 or 2.0, but I'm not 100% certain of that. But from what I've read at least, MoCA devices should be interoperable. I was thinking of incorporating an Actiontec to use it as my PoE MoCA adapter AND wireless router. I believe at that time when I was reading this thread there may have been issues using the Actiontec's as both at the same time. I just decided that for my level of networking, I would pay the extra $$ and just go with separates (Netgear MoCA & DLink wireless router)

Sorry for going on and on.

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post #799 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post

not sure what amazon page you're seeing that on - i didn't see anything that low at the website.

Okay, direct link then:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...pf_rd_i=507846

Hopefully the moderators won't get mad about sale price posting since this isn't really AV equipment.

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post #800 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wryker View Post

So the SAT output is going to your Modem and router?! I have to check mine to see if I have it set up that way...

Wryker,
Just going off memory here, but I *think* that my split after PoE is as such:
1 coax line going into a Moxi HD-DVR
1 coax line giong into a MoCA => Docsis 3.0 modem => wireless router

Please note this is from memory. It would not surprise me at all if I pulled out the computer desk and it wasn't that way.

I was originally concerned that I was using a splitter instead of diplexer. Still not sure of the difference, but our MoCA network has been pretty darn solid for about a year and a half.

The exception being sometimes we lose wireless internet connectivity and the Moxi Mate upstairs loses its connection to the network. I still haven't figured out what or why, but I'm thinking it's either a router issue or possibly the MoCA adapters conflicting somehow with the router on channel assignments. At this point I haven't been knowledgable enough to track this down and fix it.

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post #801 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skid71 View Post

Philnick,
After reading many blogs, reviews, etc. I believe MoCA devices are interoperable. There MAY be an issue between specs. Example MoCA 1.0 to 1.1 or 2.0, but I'm not 100% certain of that. But from what I've read at least, MoCA devices should be interoperable. I was thinking of incorporating an Actiontec to use it as my PoE MoCA adapter AND wireless router. I believe at that time when I was reading this thread there may have been issues using the Actiontec's as both at the same time. I just decided that for my level of networking, I would pay the extra $$ and just go with separates (Netgear MoCA & DLink wireless router)

Sorry for going on and on.

Jeff

From what I've seen here, the concern about using the wifi router aspect of the Actiontec related to it having a small routing table, making it unsuitable to being the master router on a large network (at least early on - I don't know whether that's changed).

Turning off the DHCP server in the Actiontec and using it simply as a bridge, with another router managing the network, does not require also turning off the Actiontec's wifi access point - that gets managed by the master router as well.

That's the way several of us here have gone, with no apparent problem. In my case the master router is an old Linksys WRT54G router connected directly to my Comcast cable modem.

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post #802 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

At least in houses built after ~1980 at the PoE there is a cable coming from the street, and then a box inside or outside your house that has a splitter(sometimes multiple) with a cable going to each room. I am just saying that in my house, I just use a 4-way splitter because I only use cable in 4 of the 7 rooms with cable, and leave the other 3 disconnected completely. Since they aren't connected to the cable system at all, obviously there is no need to do anything at the wall jack.

Your house wiring may be different...

xnappo

Sorry for all the posts but this stuff is extremely interesting.
I think it's starting to sink in.
At the time we purchased our house there were a bunch of cat5/6 cables just hanging loosely outside.

My assumption now is that each one of these cables runs to each room with a coax outlet.

When we signed up with Comcast the tech came out and put what I would describe as a junction box on the outside of the house where all these loose cables were.

If the above assumption is correct, is it also safe to assume that each of those cables and outlets they are running to are also "hot"?

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post #803 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philnick View Post

From what I've seen here, the concern about using the wifi router aspect of the Actiontec related to it having a small routing table, making it unsuitable to being the master router on a large network (at least early on - I don't know whether that's changed).

Turning off the DHCP server in the Actiontec and using it simply as a bridge, with another router managing the network, does not require also turning off its wifi access point - that gets managed by the master router as well.

That's the way several of us here have gone, with no apparent problem. In my case the master router is an old Linksys WRT54G router connected directly to my Comcast cable modem.

That certainly makes sense. I thought there was some reason that I decided not to try an Actiontec. Maybe something concerning power supplies on earlier versions as well. My memory is getting so crummy. If those Netgear adapters weren't so cheap, I would have to try out the Actiontec as I would like to extend our wireless network upstairs.

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post #804 of 1218 Old 11-17-2011, 01:15 PM
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Yes, there were a lot of posts about bad power supplies on the earliest (Rev.A) Actiontecs. My Verizon FiOs Actiontecs are Rev C and D, I believe.

My FiOs boxes were even cheaper - $30 each - from an Amazon Marketplace listing that turned out to be a California hippie bookstore that even threw in a pair of ethernet cables. (I did have to find and download the manuals.)

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post #805 of 1218 Old 11-18-2011, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skid71 View Post

Wryker,
Just going off memory here, but I *think* that my split after PoE is as such:
1 coax line going into a Moxi HD-DVR
1 coax line giong into a MoCA => Docsis 3.0 modem => wireless router

Please note this is from memory. It would not surprise me at all if I pulled out the computer desk and it wasn't that way.

I am a little worried from this that you are considering the jack in your computer room as the PoE. It is not. The PoE is the outside junction box you mention below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skid71 View Post

My assumption now is that each one of these cables runs to each room with a coax outlet.

When we signed up with Comcast the tech came out and put what I would describe as a junction box on the outside of the house where all these loose cables were.

If the above assumption is correct, is it also safe to assume that each of those cables and outlets they are running to are also "hot"?

Probably. And as I mentioned, this is where I would optimize the splitter setup to eliminate any runs that you don't use. The larger/more splitters there are, the worse the signal degradation. This would be a pain to figure out what is what though if the cables are not labelled.

Don't worry about asking questions!

Also - I will mentioned that the reason I still prefer the Actiontecs over even that great Netgear deal is that they have multiple jacks. Admittedly I am only using this in one room right now, but it is a nice bonus. I keep watching eBay in hopes a rev g or rev h will show up - I would like to replace my router with one of those - they have 1gig ethernet, wireless N and a larger NAT table..

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post #806 of 1218 Old 11-18-2011, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

. . .

The PoE is the outside junction box you mention below.

Probably. And as I mentioned, this is where I would optimize the splitter setup to eliminate any runs that you don't use. The larger/more splitters there are, the worse the signal degradation. This would be a pain to figure out what is what though if the cables are not labelled.

. . .

xnappo

Amen to that! I had to use a telephoto lens standing down in the garden to take a picture of the underside of the junction box outside my window in order to follow the paths of all the loops of cable in the box to figure out which cable went where - a saga recounted above!

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post #807 of 1218 Old 11-18-2011, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnappo View Post

I am a little worried from this that you are considering the jack in your computer room as the PoE. It is not. The PoE is the outside junction box you mention below.

I was thinking about this last night as I was trying to get to sleep. It sank in that the coax outlet in the basement was not the PoE but the junction box. But thank you for solidifying the thought.

Probably. And as I mentioned, this is where I would optimize the splitter setup to eliminate any runs that you don't use. The larger/more splitters there are, the worse the signal degradation. This would be a pain to figure out what is what though if the cables are not labelled.

Yep, and those cables are most certainly not labelled. It may be worth having the tech come out just to make sure that the coax runs/splits from the REAL PoE are optimized. The Netgear MoCAs are to arrive sometime today.
Don't worry about asking questions!

Also - I will mentioned that the reason I still prefer the Actiontecs over even that great Netgear deal is that they have multiple jacks. Admittedly I am only using this in one room right now, but it is a nice bonus. I keep watching eBay in hopes a rev g or rev h will show up - I would like to replace my router with one of those - they have 1gig ethernet, wireless N and a larger NAT table..

xnappo

I agree. Even getting the great deal on the Netgears, I've still pumped in $265 for 4 boxes that ONLY do MoCA. If I had to do it over again the Actiontecs would be the way to go IMO.

Thanks again xnappo.

Jeff

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post #808 of 1218 Old 11-18-2011, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skid71 View Post

I agree. Even getting the great deal on the Netgears, I've still pumped in $265 for 4 boxes that ONLY do MoCA. If I had to do it over again the Actiontecs would be the way to go IMO.

Thanks again xnappo.

Jeff

Interesting. I'm considering adding boxes with Netgears or standalone Actiontecs because of the built-in diplexer. See above - real MoCa diplexers are impossible to buy.
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post #809 of 1218 Old 11-19-2011, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Saturn49 View Post

Interesting. I'm considering adding boxes with Netgears or standalone Actiontecs because of the built-in diplexer. See above - real MoCa diplexers are impossible to buy.

Interestingly I was looking around for them too, and found that the ones that are likely in the Actiontec/Netgear boxes are probably these(these mount to a PCB, so don't do you any good - but you can buy them from Mouser):

http://ww2.pulseeng.com/products/datasheets/C250.pdf

There are two models there - one that is closer to a SAT/TV diplexer (5-860) and another more like what you want (5-1002).

When you look at the Netgear datasheet:
http://www.netgear.com/images/mcab10...n0918-4808.pdf
You see that they refer to 'MoCA frequencies' as 875-1500Mhz. This makes me this they may have the C6039 diplexer in them.

With the Actiontec box, I found two DIFFERENT datasheets. The first one here:
http://support.actiontec.com/doc_fil...rk_Adapter.pdf
has the MoCA frequencies above 1Ghz, which is what you are looking for.

The second one here:
http://www.actiontec.com/products/da...0Datasheet.pdf

Has the MoCA frequencies going down to 875Mhz.

Interesting eh? Once again though - unless you know that your cable system is going to start using 850Mhz-1Ghz soon, I think that cheap satellite diplexers are fine, and hopefully if it is a problem in the future MoCA diplexers will be more available.

xnappo
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post #810 of 1218 Old 11-19-2011, 09:26 AM
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My Verizon FiOs Actiontecs have only one coax connector, configurable through the menus as either a WAN (for use as a FiOs cable modem) or LAN connection (the way we use it, as an ethernet bridge connection).

There's no way they could have a built-in diplexer.

Without a pass-through connector, to paraphrase the old Roach Motel ads, "RF checks in but it doesn't check out."

That's why I'm using external RCA satellite diplexers (which are a buck apiece), which are working fine for now.

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