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post #1 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I am running 4 cat6 and 2 coax home runs to each of my rooms. This is all fine and good, but I have a question about networking computers. I am fairly technical savvy, but when it comes to networking, I'm limited in my knowledge.

My situation is this. We rent our basement, but share internet. What is the best way to set it up so that the rooms downstairs will not have access to my network upstairs. Basically we both need to use the internet, but I want to ensure security that neither has access to the others files.

I'm planning a network upstairs w/ several computers and a server or NAS and printer etc. and our renter can have whatever stuff he wants downstairs. It isn't that I don't trust our renter, but I would like to know the "right" way to separate the two networks.

Thanks,

Richard
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post #2 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 02:02 PM
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To connect multiple computers in your home to the internet you typically have a router which often will include a firewall, a wireless access point and a switch with a small number of ports. The router will typically have a WAN port and one or more LAN ports.

Some routers (like the one I use) allow you to have one local network configured on one of the LAN ports and another local network configured on one of the other LAN ports.

The configuration of the router controls (among other things) to what degree (if any) devices on one of the local networks can talk to devices on the other local network.

The configuration can be such as to allow both local networks access to the internet but totally prevent access from one of the local networks to the other.

This type of router will do what you want - there may be other solutions.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #3 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 02:02 PM
 
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The simplest way would be to buy a router that supports VLANs. This will isolate two virtual networks off the same router.

VLANs can become very complex(and require more advanced switches capable of VLAN tagging, which is over my head) if you want to create VLANs across the same physical infrastructure.

But you can get a basic VLAN-capable router (such as a linksys RVL200 that I use) and simply assign VLANs to a physical port on the router, and then use distinct hardware for each network: you can just put a switch on one port for you, and another switch on another port for your renters. The two networks are completely separated, so you can do whatever you want on your network, and your renters will not see or have any access to it.

I have this exact setup for a similar situation. I have a 16-port gigabit switch on an RVL200, that I use for my network, including a WAP for me. Then I setup another port on the RVL200 for a different VLAN and put another WAP on that for my renters to have wireless internet access for their laptops. I give them the PW for their wap, and they have internet. This way I can have all my NAS drives and all my network folders open on my network to do all kinds of things (convenient for me) and they can't access that at all.

Also, because I have a gigabit switch (but the RVL200 is only 10/100), all my LAN transfers are fast because they aren't going through the router at all. And 10/100 is plenty fast for WAN access.

You can also do this the kludge method by cascading two routers off a single router, and then do things that way, but I believe this clogs up bandwidth.

BTW: the RVL200 is alright, but has not been bulletproof reliable for me(it crashes sporadically). Network use here is pretty high, like 200gB/month, but I don't immediately recommend it. It may work great for you, but given my rather heavy network usage, if I were to do it again I think I might spring more money for a higher-end router than a linksys.

Hope that helps! I'm not a networking professional, just someone who knows enough to cause problems!
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post #4 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 02:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, those were both very helpfull. That is actually what I was thinking is having a router, then 2 gigabit switches so that the individual networks can run at gigabit speeds. I understand that the router dosen't need gigabit because the incoming internet wouldn't be able to move at that speed anyway.

How do I know if a router can be configured to allow one network on one LAN port, and another on another LAN port? Are VLANs the only way to do this, or do some routers handle this differently? If it can be done without VLANs how would I know which routers are capable? Most of the hardware I have seen that are VLAN capable are switches.

Thanks,

Richard
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post #5 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 03:08 PM
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Well what I discussed gives you two PHYSICAL LANs, CW's approach gives you two VIRTUAL LANs.

Both are viable but I think that the VLANS require VLAN capable switches whereas you can use "dumb" switches with the two physical LANs.

The router I use is a SonicWall TZ-100. There are others that have the same capability.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #6 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I'm interested in the physical solution, but I am wondering what this capability is called, so when I go to purchase a router, I know what I'm looking for.

Also, could this be done by just using 2 simple home routers? If so, how would I connect both routers to the internet but ensure that the networks are separate?

Thanks,

Richard
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post #7 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 04:28 PM
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For commercial installs we do Vlans.

For a residential project we will do multiple physical lans for most jobs vs. vlans. For hardware we use Fortinet Routers/Firewalls and HP Procurve Switches. As far as models go that depends on the project but in short you will need a router that can handle multiple subnets and routes.

As far as addressing goes for multiple physical lans, we have the developed following standard that we use.

1) Root Network (Non DHCP) - 192.168.1.xx

2) Data Network Non Guest (Non DHCP, Wired & WiFi) - 192.168.2.xx
WAPs, Computers & Mobile Devices

3) Data Network Guest (DHCP, Wired & WiFi) - 192.168.3.xx
WAPs, Guest Computers & Mobile Devices

4) Gaming (Non DHCP) - 192.168.4.xx

5) HA Network (Non DHCP) - 192.168.5.xx
WAP’s, Controllers, Touch Panels, etc

6) AV Network (Non DHCP) - 192.168.6.xx
WAPs, Receivers, Media Servers, Displays, etc

7) VOIP Network (Non DHCP) - 192.168.7.xx
SIP & IP Phones

Hope that helps a bit.

James
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post #8 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 05:04 PM
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Who is your ISP? Cable, DSL, or other?
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post #9 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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I investigated the TZ-100, and as far as I can tell this is a "Security Appliance" which seems to be the same as a firewall. Can this be used as a router as well, but with seperate LAN ports being assigned to different networks?

If that is correct, then it seems that I could use 2 regular run of the mill routers. I have seen suggestions to connect Router 1 WAN port to modem, Router 2 WAN port to Router 1 LAN port, and now router 1 would be one network, Router 2 would be separate.

I have also seen using three routers, one to connect to modem, and then one for each network that connects to the first "internet" router.

Do these two solutions "clog up bandwidth" as ChrisWiggles thought they might?

Why would you use the three router solution if the 2 router solution works?

What is the advantage of something like a TZ-100 or Fortinet over either of those solutions?

I don't want a kludge, I don't want any reduced performance, and I think I prefer physically separate as opposed to virtual, but I'm just looking for the "right" way to do this.

We have Comcast cable internet.
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post #10 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 05:29 PM
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A device like the TZ-100 is a router/firewall/switch and (optional) wireless-access- point.

Instead of dedicated WAN/LAN ports the device has a number of ethernet ports that are configurable.

By default one is configured as your WAN port, one as your LAN port.

In your case you would start with this configuration and add a second LAN port. Each LAN port would be on a different subnet.

You need no other routers but you would need "dumb" (or better) switches to allow multiple connections to each of the LAN ports.

All communication between devices on each LAN would be via the associated switch. Only LAN-to-LAN traffic and LAN-to-WAN traffic would pass through the TZ-100. It has enough horsepower to handle this.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #11 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 05:33 PM
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There are three ways of doing this..on the cheap, using standard dlink, linksys, etc routers, that I can think of.

The best, in my opinion, would to get multiple IP's with Comcast. I pay $9.90 a month for four additional IP addresses. You would then put a switch behind your modem and then a router for you and a router for the apartment connected to the switch. This would be the most secure and allow them to do whatever they wanted with their connection and whatever you wanted with yours.

Option 2, would also use two routers. One connected behind the other. So router one would be connected to your cable modem. The WAN side of router 2 would be connected to the LAN side of router one. You would want your network to reside on router 2 as it would be more secure. In this scenario you would see devices on the apartment network but they would no see yours.

Option 3 would be to get three routers. Router 1 connected to your cable modem. The WAN side of router 2 and 3 would be connected to the LAN side of router 1. Then you would have 2 separate networks firewalled from each other.

I would spend the extra money each month to go with option 1. The reason is that option 2 or 3 or any of the above solutions would require you to manage the networks. So that if your tenant wanted to run a server of any type, or configure his network so that he had access from the outside you would have to configure the port forwarding, dmz's or however you decided to accomplish the task. With option 1 you both have your own router with an outside IP address and everyone is free to play with the network however they choose without affecting the other...

If any of this works for you, but you need a diagram of how it would be configured, let me know.
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post #12 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 05:40 PM
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You don't want your renter to have control over access to the internet. They might setup something that violated the terms of your contract with your ISP. You might find your contract canceled for something your renter did.

Better to keep total control and adjust the configuration on a case by case basis.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #13 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 05:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

Well what I discussed gives you two PHYSICAL LANs, CW's approach gives you two VIRTUAL LANs.

Both are viable but I think that the VLANS require VLAN capable switches whereas you can use "dumb" switches with the two physical LANs.p

Not really. Yes, if you want to do VLANs across switches and within a switch, you need more advanced switches.

The method I described is the simple method with dumb switches. The VLAN is really just controlled at the 4 ports on the router. Each port is its own network, regardless of what you plug in there.

More advanced VLAN tagging is possible, but AFAIK requires more advanced switches as you mentioned. I have no experience with that, and doesn't seem at all necessary in this situation.

All you would need is a basic router that supported VLANs I believe.

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The router I use is a SonicWall TZ-100. There are others that have the same capability.

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post #14 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

The method I described is the simple method with dumb switches. The VLAN is really just controlled at the 4 ports on the router. Each port is its own network, regardless of what you plug in there.

Does each port on the router have a different subnet assigned?

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #15 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

You don't want your renter to have control over access to the internet. They might setup something that violated the terms of your contract with your ISP. You might find your contract canceled for something your renter did.

Better to keep total control and adjust the configuration on a case by case basis.

You could work that out in the lease with your tenant, so they know the terms of your ISP if you think that would be a problem. I think the separate IP's are the way to go. At least when the tenant starts downloading child porn, you can show the cops the destination IP address is the tenant, not your network. Or safer yet let the tenant subscribe to their own Comcast account. It depends on how bad one wants to be a network admin at home.
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post #16 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mbethers View Post

There are three ways of doing this..on the cheap, using standard dlink, linksys, etc routers, that I can think of.

The best, in my opinion, would to get multiple IP's with Comcast.

Option 2, would also use two routers.

Option 3 would be to get three routers.

If done right using the appropriate router as mentioned in my above post you only need 1 router, using 2 or 3 and you're introducing unnecessary clutter.

As far as the second IP you can do that and have two distinct routes on your router. The issue here is you will need to know how to setup, configure and map static routes out of your gateway. This is not difficult to do but unless you have experience with routing, and I am not talking D-Link or Linksys here, you may have a difficult time.

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post #17 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by GoGo Delicious View Post

If done right using the appropriate router as mentioned in my above post you only need 1 router, using 2 or 3 and you're introducing unnecessary clutter.

As far as the second IP you can do that and have two distinct routes on your router. The issue here is you will need to know how setup, configure and map static routes out of your gateway. This is not difficult to do but unless you have experience with routing, and I am not talking D-Link or Linksys here, you may have a difficult time.

What would be a a typical Fortinet model you would use for a residence?

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #18 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

What would be a a typical Fortinet model you would use for a residence?

I would start with the FortiWiFi-50B (NOTE: The URL is a Fortinet dealer & not Fortinets site. I have no connection with them other than we source a lot of our IT gear from them) and go from there depending on the project and what the client needs. We have used the 60 series, 80 series, 100 series & 200 series in residential projects. The Fortinet is a very advanced router for the price. We are Cisco certified engineers and we prefer Fortinet over Cisco.

As far as the UI, Fortinet has a demo on their site BUT it's only about 25% of what you can do. They do not show networking, routing static or dynamic (RIP, OFS, BGP or Multicast), etc.

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post #19 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 07:23 PM
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Thanks for the link. I have been using SonicWall for so long I haven't kept up with other brands.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #20 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mbethers View Post

At least when the tenant starts downloading child porn, you can show the cops the destination IP address is the tenant

That is an interesting issue. I think I would talk to a lawyer about it. I'm wonder if the cops would care what IP was used.

Letting the renter get his own account/hardware/everything might be the best bet.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #21 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

Thanks for the link. I have been using SonicWall for so long I haven't kept up with other brands.

Check out Virtual Graffiti. That's where we purchase all our IT equipment including Fortinet. Plus, they are very knowledgeable.

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post #22 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 08:28 PM - Thread Starter
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The internet account is actually in my tenants name. The fortinet looks to be out of my price range. I'm actually trying to stay under say $200 if possible. What about something like a zywall 2 plus?
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-021-_-Product

Thanks everyone for the help again,

Richard
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post #23 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 08:42 PM
 
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Does each port on the router have a different subnet assigned?

I guess I don't really understand the difference between a subnet and a VLAN in this instance.

Essentially I have one network that has IPs of 192.168.2.x and another that is 192.168.3.x (where "x" varies based on the various devices obviously). And you can't see from one to the other. So I suppose this would count as a different subnet basically, functionally speaking. Again, beyond my expertise.
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post #24 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

I guess I don't really understand the difference between a subnet and a VLAN in this instance.

Essentially I have one network that has IPs of 192.168.2.x and another that is 192.168.3.x (where "x" varies based on the various devices obviously). And you can't see from one to the other. So I suppose this would count as a different subnet basically, functionally speaking. Again, beyond my expertise.

Taken from Wikipedia:

Virtual LANs are essentially Layer 2 constructs, compared with IP subnets which are Layer 3 constructs.

Does that help? There is a good deal more there if you are interested.

I don't think in your case you really need the VLAN since you have two different subnets for two different physical networks.

I could be mistaken.

Regards, Frederick C. Wilt
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post #25 of 26 Old 06-29-2010, 10:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcwilt View Post

Taken from Wikipedia:

Virtual LANs are essentially Layer 2 constructs, compared with IP subnets which are Layer 3 constructs.

Does that help? There is a good deal more there if you are interested.

I don't think in your case you really need the VLAN since you have two different subnets for two different physical networks.

I could be mistaken.

That may be true, because I'm not using VLAn capabilities through the network really in terms of VLAN tagging.

But I'm not aware of how you would accomplish this same thing on a router without this capability. I couldn't do this on a regular 54G router for instance I don't believe. Hence why I used a RVL200 router than I knew had VLAN capabilities. Because I don't know that you can setup different subnets like that on a regular router?

It just seemed to be the easiest way to do what I wanted, and it's what the network guy at my work told me to do, so that's why I suggested it to the OP as the simplest solution I was aware of. But then again, I'm admittedly not aware of much on this front!
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post #26 of 26 Old 06-30-2010, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles View Post

But I'm not aware of how you would accomplish this same thing on a router without this capability. I couldn't do this on a regular 54G router for instance I don't believe. Hence why I used a RVL200 router than I knew had VLAN capabilities. Because I don't know that you can setup different subnets like that on a regular router?

You're right; you need vlan capabilities in your router or switch (layer 3 that is). What you can do though is spend less money and buy a cheap home router with DD-WRT support that can do vlans. I wouldn't suggest the back-to-back router approach as I had been doing that for I don't even know how many years. It does work 99% of the time fine, but every now and then you may come across a download that just won't initialize in this configuration.

I've worked on that Linksys router you have....pretty beefy for home use
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